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post #361 of 817 Old 08-25-2010, 10:27 AM
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Ed,

Thanks for the reply and addressing the marketing department's understandable excitement - that's what you pay them for.

I must say that your honesty about the product is a credit to SVS and one of the reasons I'll probably pick one up when the secondary, smaller HT finally gets built. Compared to the hype and stories we've all seen from some other ID companies, your candor is very refreshing and certainly adds to my confidence level that the new subs will perform as you describe.

I'm going to be very interested to compare the SB-13 to the JL F113 to see how much difference/improvement the SB will be in the sub 20HZ range and the impact of the SB's lack of filter in subjective perception of VLF in my room.

(or maybe move the F113 upstairs if the SB16 looks better - I'm kind of stuck with some size limits, so small sealed is pretty much my only option)
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post #362 of 817 Old 08-25-2010, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Ed,

Thanks for the reply and addressing the marketing department's understandable excitement - that's what you pay them for.

I must say that your honesty about the product is a credit to SVS and one of the reasons I'll probably pick one up when the secondary, smaller HT finally gets built. Compared to the hype and stories we've all seen from some other ID companies, your candor is very refreshing and certainly adds to my confidence level that the new subs will perform as you describe.

I'm going to be very interested to compare the SB-13 to the JL F113 to see how much difference/improvement the SB will be in the sub 20HZ range and the impact of the SB's lack of filter in subjective perception of VLF in my room.

(or maybe move the F113 upstairs if the SB16 looks better - I'm kind of stuck with some size limits, so small sealed is pretty much my only option)

You're most welcome.

As for the subjective differences between the two subs WRT usable in-room ULF extension - again it will be dependent on room size. If your room is smaller and exhibits a bunch of room gain, expect the SB13-Plus to measure flat to near single digits. If your other subwoofer rolls-off in-room <22 Hz at 14-18 dB/octave (typical of a 4th order anechoic sub), you are correct that the SB13-Plus will typically start to exhibit an extension advantage <20 Hz.

As bosso will I'm sure attest, a sealed sub which works with room gain instead of fighting it with excessive anechoic EQ and then a HP simply 'sounds right' in-room. So we're being clear with customers that the intended application for the SB line is small to mid size rooms which have some available gain to assist with ULF extension.

In larger rooms which have much less gain and also which demand considerably higher VLF output from the subwoofer, the bass reflex models are a better choice. With that said, we do offer a room gain comp (basically a user adjustable HP for corner/slope) for the bass reflex models too in the even they are showing some moderate in-room rise down low.

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post #363 of 817 Old 08-25-2010, 09:10 PM
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Thanks for the details.

I have a 2000 cf sealed room, and though music is the priority, HT is probably in play with almost equal frequency. Would adding an SB-13Plus to the JL (with, perhaps the SVS sub eq in the mix) give me both the sub 20hz benefits of the SB and of multiple subs, or am I asking for trouble trying to integrate the two and risk ending up with less than the sum of the two parts?
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post #364 of 817 Old 08-27-2010, 06:17 AM
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I'm going for 2 x SB13-Plus. That's all good and settled already - trouble is deciding which finish to choose; wood veneer Black Oak or gloss black finish?

Ed: If possible, I would appreciate in room pictures (with normal lightning, preferably both side by side) to make it easier to decide. Links to existing pictures I might have missed would work too! (I have searched for pictures using google but couldn't find any good ones - particularly with wood veneer Black Oak finish. Sorry Lsound, for hotlinking that one. It's a good example to why I'm asking for better pictures though.
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post #365 of 817 Old 08-29-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Thanks for the details.

I have a 2000 cf sealed room, and though music is the priority, HT is probably in play with almost equal frequency. Would adding an SB-13Plus to the JL (with, perhaps the SVS sub eq in the mix) give me both the sub 20hz benefits of the SB and of multiple subs, or am I asking for trouble trying to integrate the two and risk ending up with less than the sum of the two parts?

I wouldn't say it's asking for trouble, but integrating two subwoofers which have differing dynamic output capabilities and differing in-room extension profiles is definitely more of a challenge than integrating two of the same subwoofer.

The JL can play louder than the SB13-Plus, so you will need to calibrate the SB13-Plus a few dB lower than the JL so that both subs reach their limits at about the same point.

You'll reap the benefits of enhanced dynamic output from both subs above the corner frequency of the JL, but this effect will progressively diminish <20 Hz as the JL rolls off more steeply in-room than does the SB13-Plus. So at the very deepest frequencies, the SB13-Plus will be contributing more of the output - so overall system dynamics at ULFs will be reduced as compared to what is available higher in the pass band. IMO that's the biggest benefit of using a pair of the same subwoofer - output doubles across the entire passband, and not just over a portion of it.

FR integration and output linearity issues notwithstanding, the JL and the SB13+ together will certainly provide more/better overall performance than either alone.

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post #366 of 817 Old 08-29-2010, 03:09 PM
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Ed, ignoring the fit/finish/dsp and driver, how does the output below 25hz and above compare to say the Epik Empire? (SB13 that is).

 

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post #367 of 817 Old 08-29-2010, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Ed, ignoring the fit/finish/dsp and driver, how does the output below 25hz and above compare to say the Epik Empire? (SB13 that is).

I can't answer that - I never tested/measured an Empire. Considering it's much closer to the Submersive in size, weight, driver complement, and form factor - comparisons to that subwoofer (rather than the SB13-Plus) would seem more relevant wouldn't you agree?

Regardless, it's at least 80% larger and has dual 15" woofers so I would expect it to prevail in an SPL contest. Bench racing subwoofers is pretty straight forward really - as you know (having modeled and built your own subs) the DIY crowd has plenty of sims for stuff like this and there are rarely any surprises or upsets.

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post #368 of 817 Old 08-29-2010, 06:06 PM
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Thanks Ed, was curious if you had in fact tested the Empire as of yet as I know you guys test many ID subs.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #369 of 817 Old 08-30-2010, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

...snip...
In larger rooms which have much less gain and also which demand considerably higher VLF output from the subwoofer, the bass reflex models are a better choice. With that said, we do offer a room gain comp (basically a user adjustable HP for corner/slope) for the bass reflex models too in the even they are showing some moderate in-room rise down low.

Bass reflex models include the PB Ultra-13????

What do you consider a large room??

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post #370 of 817 Old 08-30-2010, 04:36 AM
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Yes ... a bass reflex sub is essentially a ported/vented sub ..

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #371 of 817 Old 08-30-2010, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Bass reflex models include the PB Ultra-13????

What do you consider a large room??

Correct - bass reflex employs a Helmholtz resonator (ports or passive radiator).

There isn't a hard/fast definition of a large room because in addition to the overall size/dimensions, the floor plan/layout and building materials will affect how 'lossy' the living space is from a room gain standpoint. With that said, get much above 3000 ft^3 and the corner frequency of the room generally drops into the 30 Hz or deeper range and the transfer function doesn't really solidify until well into the 20's.

Larger rooms also simply suck more life out of a subwoofer, requiring more output at VLF/ULFs for a satisfying listening experience, making the bass reflex models from our line-up a better choice for single subwoofer applications.

Of course EQ can be added to any sealed subwoofer such that it exhibits a flat in-room response to any frequency. The problem with this concept is that the subwoofer will simply run out of woofer excursion and amp power that much sooner since the large room is not contributing as much to overall output at VLF/ULFs. My own HT exhibits about 15 dB of gain at 10 Hz, making it an ideal choice for a sealed subwoofer (with an optimal roll-off profile) application - it's literally free bass.

Of course DIY'ers with no limitation on woofer size, quantity, or external amp power can make sealed (or IB) work in any size room - even one which has virtually no gain and/or very lossy boundaries. Just add more power, EQ, and combined woofer Vd. There is a reason bosso has 8 Tumults and around 6 kW (last time I checked anyway) in his sub-bass system - because that's what is needed to achieve his desired output levels <10Hz without reaching the mechanical limitations of the drivers or the power limits of the amps.

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post #372 of 817 Old 09-09-2010, 03:01 AM
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For EU customers; pre-order is now available at lsound.no
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post #373 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

Hey Ed when will the sb16 be for sale?

Is anyone else waiting eagerly for pictures of new Ultra 16 woofer? I'm curious to see the specs on that sub. I'm also wondering with the upping of amp power in lower models will we see a 1500 watt + amp on the SB Ultra 16. I know on the old hand outs it read as 1200 watts but it also said the SB Ultra 13 would have 800 and we know that changed. For various reasons.

Edit: I just found a rumor on Audioholics forum (I said rumor as you can never be truly sure ) that the new SB ultra 16 will have more or less 2000 watts and will be close to 4K in price. Interesting.

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post #374 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 01:32 AM
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ed, i have a pb12 currently and was thinking of adding a sb12-nsd to the mix. would you suggest this combo or not?

thanks.

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post #375 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

for 4k i would just get the sub25 with 3000watts amp and not have to wait.

As I said we don't know for sure but that is getting into some steep pricing. It will really need to preform for that price.

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post #376 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 12:09 PM
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It'll be $2600, +/- $100.

Bets anyone?

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #377 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 12:51 PM
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Sonic Boom doesn't have the SB's on their site, so for Canadians do we just order directly through SVS?
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post #378 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

It'll be $2600, +/- $100.

Bets anyone?

I hope its that price. But I'm starting to doubt it.

ShaunH
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post #379 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 02:12 PM
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Wondering how the sb12-nsd will perform? I am in the market for a new sub and this one has peaked my interest. I was originally looking at either the pb/pc12-nsd but the new amps kinda raised it out of my budget. How would everyone say that the sb12-nsd compares to the ported sub from svs? Also how would it compare to say the vtf2 form Hsu?
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post #380 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjones0404 View Post

Wondering how the sb12-nsd will perform? I am in the market for a new sub and this one has peaked my interest. I was originally looking at either the pb/pc12-nsd but the new amps kinda raised it out of my budget. How would everyone say that the sb12-nsd compares to the ported sub from svs? Also how would it compare to say the vtf2 form Hsu?

The ported 12 will smoke the SB at 20hz. Above 30-35hz, the SB might take over.
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post #381 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post

Sonic Boom doesn't have the SB's on their site, so for Canadians do we just order directly through SVS?

I talked to them yesterday, they said they'll be taking pre-orders for the new subs in one or two weeks.
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post #382 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The ported 12 will smoke the SB at 20hz. Above 30-35hz, the SB might take over.

Would the pb/pc be that big of a difference. I have always known that the potted subs are louder than the sealed but figured it would not be that significant of a difference. The rooM that i have is average i would say. I was leaning towards the sb12 due to it's size and the fact that wife wants a smaller sub. If it is a significant drop then i am nit sure that would want to go that route. Would it be more in line with say the pb10?
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post #383 of 817 Old 09-14-2010, 07:15 PM
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I'd bet on either the PB10 or the PB/PC12 having more power at 20hz than the SB12. For movies, those ported subs would probably do a better job with LFE. I can't say that they will necessarily sound better overall, however. That remains to be heard. The compact size of the SB is a definite liability when it comes to high output in the deep bass range.
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post #384 of 817 Old 09-15-2010, 05:27 AM
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It really depends on room gain. Not sure what "average" means, but if you have ample room gain a sealed sub may do well in your room and match the ported subs down low (and exceed them below their tuning points), and should also do better above. But the SB12-NSD is a small sealed sub with a relatively small (400watt) amp, so it's not going to be a monster and you'll need a lot of room gain to make it work (it isn't meant for large rooms, and may even strain in mid-sized rooms). If your room is say 1300 to 1500 cubes, and outside of say a doorway not fully open to the rest of the house, it may do alright.

Unless you're size limited, I'd go with the ported offerings. Though the PB10 is a large sub, and the PB12NSD even larger! Recently had a friend buy one of the PB12NSD's, his wife was not impressed.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #385 of 817 Old 09-21-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

ed, i have a pb12 currently and was thinking of adding a sb12-nsd to the mix. would you suggest this combo or not?

thanks.

bump

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post #386 of 817 Old 09-22-2010, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

ed, i have a pb12 currently and was thinking of adding a sb12-nsd to the mix. would you suggest this combo or not?

thanks.

I would email SVS Tech Support directly as I'm sure Ed isn't checking this thread that often.

Why exactly do you want to add a sealed sub to a ported sub? They're going to have very different FR as it is, let alone in room. Sounds like a lot of trouble mating them. But I could be wrong.

IMO, I'd go with 2 of the PB12's. Is it the Plus or the NSD?

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #387 of 817 Old 09-22-2010, 10:11 AM
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i have the plus, but don't have enough space for a second one. i only have 15" space behind my AT screen so the sub's width cannot exceed that (since i intend to fire the woofer/ports to the side wall). i was thinking of a small sealed sub to make the response smoother throughout the room, and at the same time (hopefully) add some more punch to the midbass. if sealed is not recommended, then my only other option from svs would be the pb10-nsd.

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post #388 of 817 Old 10-18-2010, 02:09 AM
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No news = good news? Currently waiting for delivery and it's no fun at all.
With no updates regarding SB1x over at SVS for well over a month I'm having information withdrawal symptoms! At least the date is set for EU customers: 15.11.2010 according to L-sound.

Aaargh, need some new pictures - at least!
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post #389 of 817 Old 10-19-2010, 09:46 AM
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Yeah, I have a sb12-nsd on pre-order myself, and patiently waiting for it.

I'm assuming the the subs are in a cargo ship on their way to some Port in seattle at the moment. There's a bit of a talk on the asian forums about the subs. They've been for sale there for some time now. Here's one person's comment on the sb12-nsd compared to the pc12-nsd

Quote:


Over the past 1 week, I have had the chance to try out the SB12-NSD.
Size wise, it is really compact, not much visual appeal aside from the rather modernistic curved front grill.
It is certainly much different from my PC12-NSD.
It is more immediate with a sharper edge to the bass and no overhang. Great for music and concerts.
For movies, each bass note is clearly defined but I do miss the rumble of the PC. The sofa still shakes with every LFE note rather than a trembling effect I get with the PC.

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1264488/+1325

I'm rather excited, I'll be using the sb12-nsd for about 90/10 music/HT. I wanted a rythmik, but the F15 almost comes to twice the price after shipping to Canada
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post #390 of 817 Old 11-02-2010, 06:17 PM
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I just ordered the SP12 on Sunday. Should I be expecting a LONG wait for this to arrive? I realized it was a pre-order, but I was under the impression the shipping kinks would be worked out by now...

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
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