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post #1 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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So the Epik Empire hasnt been out too incredibly long yet, but I am wondering how it will compare to the PB-12+ by SVS. I am looking at getting one of these two subs in the next few months and am curious how they will compare.

The Empire is a sealed box with dual 15" drivers whereas the SVS is a single 12 in a ported box. Either sub will probably be overkill for my space, but I dont want to have buyers remorse later on and am looking at this as a long term investment and am willing to put down the money on it.

Hopefully you guys can help me weigh the pro's and con's of one over the other.

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post #2 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

So the Epik Empire hasnt been out too incredibly long yet, but I am wondering how it will compare to the PB-12+ by SVS. I am looking at getting one of these two subs in the next few months and am curious how they will compare.

The Empire is a sealed box with dual 15" drivers whereas the SVS is a single 12 in a ported box. Either sub will probably be overkill for my space, but I dont want to have buyers remorse later on and am looking at this as a long term investment and am willing to put down the money on it.

Hopefully you guys can help me weigh the pro's and con's of one over the other.

I have been going back and forth between the Empire and the ED A5-350 and have found that no one will really be able to give you a direct comparison. You are better off searching and reading user reviews on both individually and making a decision. The SVS are more expensive but look nicer. With the Empire you are going to hear about midbase, and more midbase, and then.... more midbase again - unfortunately, it's difficult to tell if that is an educated opinion from an owner or someone mirroring what is posted on the Epik site. I've read for hours and hours and still haven't made a decision but have figured out that I think I just like learning about this stuff and this gives me a reason to learn. In the end, you can't go wrong either way, i'm sure either will impress you.
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post #3 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socwrkr View Post

I have been going back and forth between the Empire and the ED A5-350 and have found that no one will really be able to give you a direct comparison. You are better off searching and reading user reviews on both individually and making a decision. The SVS are more expensive but look nicer. With the Empire you are going to hear about midbase, and more midbase, and then.... more midbase again - unfortunately, it's difficult to tell if that is an educated opinion from an owner or someone mirroring what is posted on the Epik site. I've read for hours and hours and still haven't made a decision but have figured out that I think I just like learning about this stuff and this gives me a reason to learn. In the end, you can't go wrong either way, i'm sure either will impress you.

I have no doubt on that as I am coming from a Polk PSW125 . That sub while nice just doesn't cut it for me. I guess I will just hope for more opinions here and continue to read up on them.

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #4 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 07:46 PM
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i replaced an outlaw lfm-1ex (12" ported, hsu vtf3 clone) with an empire in my 3300ft^3 room.

the empire goes every bit as low (measured flat to 17-18hz), and hits way harder in the mid-bass. also, the sealed design is better suited to music.

no comparison, in my mind.
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post #5 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

i replaced an outlaw lfm-1ex (12" ported, hsu vtf3 clone) with an empire in my 3300ft^3 room.

the empire goes every bit as low (measured flat to 17-18hz), and hits way harder in the mid-bass. also, the sealed design is better suited to music.

no comparison, in my mind.


I haven't heard the SVS, but I second the motion. I went from the Outlaw LFM-1 & 2 to the Empire and it's no contest.
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post #6 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 10:19 PM
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Anyone ever notice how most of these guys talking about the Empire have such a low post count...??? I'm just sayin'...
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post #7 of 32 Old 02-22-2010, 11:35 PM
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Another low post count here. And another vote for the Empire. I joined AVS the DAY I decided it's time to get a new sub and after all the reading, I decided B&M subs just won't cut it for me anymore. I came from a Velodyne 750 watt peak, 12" w/15 sub bass radiator that I had for 12 years. I went to several B&M's and heard some stuff but wasn't too impressed, especially with the prices. I figured if I was going to pay $1500 for a sub, I'll take a look at online options.

I read all sorts of stuff here. I created a forum account. After a week of hard researching, I narrowed down my choices to a pair of Empires or a 13 Ultra. Did I make the right choice? I have no idea. It was a marked improvement for me however.

I'm sure the SVS is a fine sub but for me, I was very impressed with what I've read about Epik and decided I couldn't go wrong that route. The sealed design and very "Submersive" similarities were appealing.

If you look at the epic Epik owners thread, you'll see lots of satisfied customers both old and new and that was a contributing factor to my decision.

That been said, however, I don't think you can go wrong with either of those subs. It would be nice to include some more information if you're looking for advice. What size is the room? Will this be more for HT or music? etc.

Understandably you're going to see some posts from newer members like me giving our thumbs up to the Empire. We read about a great products, we buy it then we decide we'll share our impressions. Isn't that what a forums all about?

I've been reading/getting advice/etc on AVS for YEARS but only decided to join recently because I actually bought a product from information I got from here. And in a way, I feel I'm returning the favor by contributing with feedback on my personal experiences with those same products.

It's hard to be subjective when all I know is what I have and I'm enthusiastic about my purchase. The Empire is a great sub and I recommend it.

Now. More info please.

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post #8 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

i replaced an outlaw lfm-1ex (12" ported, hsu vtf3 clone) with an empire in my 3300ft^3 room.

the empire goes every bit as low (measured flat to 17-18hz), and hits way harder in the mid-bass. also, the sealed design is better suited to music.

no comparison, in my mind.

This is why I've got a Epik on the way
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post #9 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 05:53 AM
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The Empire is impressive for it's size. And a steal. Almost matched my Epik Tower for down low. In room about 14Hz @ 75 with the Empire vs 12Hz with the ported Tower. It certainly bests the Tower in midbass thus makes my music experience more enjoyable (sorry for sounding like a broken record). It's a steal for that price. Hopefully ground plane measurements to be posted soon by Epik on it's website would give you a jist of it's capabilities.

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post #10 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The main use will be Home Theater and watching cable TV. I listen to music occasionally through my xbox using Vista Media Center. Music should be ok regarldless as I recently reconverted all my music to lossless formats.

I have listed all my current speakers spec's below. I currently have the following items connected to my receiver:

Wii - connected via RCA's
Xbox - connected via component
Xbox 360 - connected via HDMI
Uverse - connected via HDMI
Samsung BP-1600 - connected via HDMI

This table shows the current speakers, spec's and configuration.

Manufacture Position Wattage Impedance Efficiency Lower -3db limit Upper -3db limit Frequency Response
Polk T90e Fronts 20 - 200 w/channel 8 ohms 90 dB 48Hz 24kHz 38Hz - 25kHz
Polk CS2 Center 20 - 175 w/channel 8 ohms 90 dB 60Hz 24kHz 55Hz - 25kHz
Polk R50's Surrounds 20 - 150 w/channel 8 ohms 90 dB 50Hz 20kHz 40Hz - 24kHz
Polk PSW125 Sub 300 watts 34 Hz dB 32Hz-225Hz


Here is my current layout. I realize the speaker by the couch is pointing the wrong direction, but its the only way to get it to fit. I have run the room correction software with the receiver and applied it to my settings. I have 9 ft ceilings so living room dimension is about ~2400ft^3 not including the dining room. I have no real ability to modify the way the furniture is arranged and I am aware that my "sweet spot" is more than likely not the couch.



Hope that info helps!

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #11 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrunr View Post

Anyone ever notice how most of these guys talking about the Empire have such a low post count...??? I'm just sayin'...

~25 more than you.

btw, what exactly is it that you're 'sayin'? and based on what? i'm a bit unclear on the conclusions that you think should be drawn about these folks.
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post #12 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 08:42 AM
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The PB-12+ is a fine sub with a very nice fit & finish. I recently added one to my system to compliment my older PB-12+2. No experience with the Epic. Just thought I would give you some reassurance from the other side of the coin. Either way, I'm sure both of them would be a substantial improvement over your old sub. Good luck.
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post #13 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApolloCreed View Post

The PB-12+ is a fine sub with a very nice fit & finish. I recently added one to my system to compliment my older PB-12+2. No experience with the Epic. Just thought I would give you some reassurance from the other side of the coin. Either way, I'm sure both of them would be a substantial improvement over your old sub. Good luck.

I am quite sure I would be happy with the PB-12+ but I am also trying to make sure I maximize my investment (and hopefully make it a one time thing). I guess one of the questions boils down to which is better: A Sealed or Ported Box?

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #14 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

I am quite sure I would be happy with the PB-12+ but I am also trying to make sure I maximize my investment (and hopefully make it a one time thing). I guess one of the questions boils down to which is better: A Sealed or Ported Box?

Good question, that's the one that has had me hung up as well. Although designed differently, I have about the same cubic footage as you in my room. I'll keep reading to see the replies and will keep posting to get my count up (since apparently that will make me a better audiophile)
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post #15 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

I am quite sure I would be happy with the PB-12+ but I am also trying to make sure I maximize my investment (and hopefully make it a one time thing). I guess one of the questions boils down to which is better: A Sealed or Ported Box?

General rule of thumb from what I understand is ported is better for HT because you get slightly more extension but it drops off quickly and sealed is better for music because the sound is "tighter". Mind you, I use the empires for both and it gets plenty deep for me, 15hz or lower and they don't break a sweat.

My last sub had a passive radiator which is similar to a ported design. Compared to the Empire, it got suprisingly deep but fell off very quickly when pushed to higher volumes. The empires just get louder and louder.

Also, port noise can be an issue when ported subs are pushed very hard.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #16 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 04:16 PM
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If you are using powered tower speakers (i.e. def techs) would you be better off with a sub to match that is ported and has more extension since the towers are handling much of the mid bass anyways?
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post #17 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by socwrkr View Post

If you are using powered tower speakers (i.e. def techs) would you be better off with a sub to match that is ported and has more extension since the towers are handling much of the mid bass anyways?

no.

i had powered def techs, and you should just forget that they are 'powered'. think of them as standard towers with a pretty solid low end. they don't move nearly the amount of air necessary to give you that visceral mid-bass punch, and they don't go anywhere near as low as def tech claims on paper. you want a proper stand-alone sub.

(that said, i still run DT...unpowered BP30s)
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post #18 of 32 Old 02-23-2010, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

no.

i had powered def techs, and you should just forget that they are 'powered'. think of them as standard towers with a pretty solid low end. they don't move nearly the amount of air necessary to give you that visceral mid-bass punch, and they don't go anywhere near as low as def tech claims on paper. you want a proper stand-alone sub.

(that said, i still run DT...unpowered BP30s)

Oh, I know I still want a stand-alone sub... i'm still just trying to work out which one.
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post #19 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Also is placement an issue? I know that bass is uni-directional but does it matter how the sub is placed? The SVS I can just point straight out, but what about the Empire? Should I have it placed so the subs point toward the listener or at 90 degrees to them?

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #20 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 08:47 AM
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Hola.

I've got about 13,000 cubic feet of "open floorplan" to fill, and I'm hoping dual Epik Empires will do the job. I *was* thinking about a SVS PC13 Ultra. For the $, the Empires seem like more bang for the buck.

The "up" side to the Empires (vs the SVS PC13U) is that I haven't read anything especially negative about the sound from anybody that's actually heard them. The "down" side is that Epik seems far less stable and mature as a company, as evidenced by the lack of continuity in models and/or longevity of models, lack of an owner's manual, lack of empirical performance specs/data.

All that said and done - I'm still ready to pull the trigger on dual Empires and cross my fingers that I'll be happy w/ that decision years down the road. I figure no matter what, I'm going to get a significant improvement over my 17 yr. old Velodyne F-1200, both for HT and music.
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post #21 of 32 Old 02-24-2010, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

Hola.

I've got about 13,000 cubic feet of "open floorplan" to fill, and I'm hoping dual Epik Empires will do the job. I *was* thinking about a SVS PC13 Ultra. For the $, the Empires seem like more bang for the buck.

The "up" side to the Empires (vs the SVS PC13U) is that I haven't read anything especially negative about the sound from anybody that's actually heard them. The "down" side is that Epik seems far less stable and mature as a company, as evidenced by the lack of continuity in models and/or longevity of models, lack of an owner's manual, lack of empirical performance specs/data.

All that said and done - I'm still ready to pull the trigger on dual Empires and cross my fingers that I'll be happy w/ that decision years down the road. I figure no matter what, I'm going to get a significant improvement over my 17 yr. old Velodyne F-1200, both for HT and music.

Yeah, I had been following your thread as it developed. My situation is similar, but I dont have nearly as much space to fill with sound which is good. . Some of those things you mentioned (stability of the company, customer service, ect) are indeed going to factor into this purchase as well.

As far as cost I am looking at this as an investment, however I am getting married this year and the honeymoon trumps all . That also means I need to be able to seriously justify spending that kinda cash on a sub. I spent all said and done only 633.94 on all the speakers in my setup so spending double or triple on one piece is hard to justify.

Since this purchase will more than likely not be made until May at the earliest I know the discounted price on the Empire probably will not exist so I might be stuck having to pony up more money for a single should it perform better.

I am hoping however to have enough information on the two before then so if the Empire is the choice I can purchase before the price goes back up. Please let me know your experiences with them.

My Setup

 

 

Quote:
There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #22 of 32 Old 03-29-2010, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Its been a bit since I last saw anything and its getting closer to purchase time (April 23rd). Anything new on the Empire such as graphs? I also am moving into a townhome with a different layout come May 28th and this does change drastically the amount of space I will have to fill. I will post my new floorplan later.

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #23 of 32 Old 03-29-2010, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

Its been a bit since I last saw anything and its getting closer to purchase time (April 23rd). Anything new on the Empire such as graphs? I also am moving into a townhome with a different layout come May 28th and this does change drastically the amount of space I will have to fill. I will post my new floorplan later.

One thing you should be aware of is the Empire sold out and will be available again early to mid May. They extended the intro pricing, however.

Check it out.

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post #24 of 32 Old 03-29-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

Also is placement an issue? I know that bass is uni-directional but does it matter how the sub is placed? The SVS I can just point straight out, but what about the Empire? Should I have it placed so the subs point toward the listener or at 90 degrees to them?

If you go with a cylinder from SVS you won't have to worry about which way to point it. (trying to get my post count up too!)

Good luck with whatever you end up with. My experience has been with SVS, 1st sub 8 years ago, second one this year, plus the SCS-01/SBS-01 speakers this year and couldn't be happier. I'm sure the other subs you are looking at are good as well.

As was said earlier, "generally speaking" sealed subs are considered better for music but I think that it is only because it is easier to design and tune a sealed sub for "music" than a ported sub. SVS IMHO has the engineering and design to overcome that "inequality".
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post #25 of 32 Old 03-29-2010, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by b33chtom View Post

If you go with a cylinder from SVS you won't have to worry about which way to point it. (trying to get my post count up too!)

Good luck with whatever you end up with. My experience has been with SVS, 1st sub 8 years ago, second one this year, plus the SCS-01/SBS-01 speakers this year and couldn't be happier. I'm sure the other subs you are looking at are good as well.

As was said earlier, "generally speaking" sealed subs are considered better for music but I think that it is only because it is easier to design and tune a sealed sub for "music" than a ported sub. SVS IMHO has the engineering and design to overcome that "inequality".

Unfortunately the WAF is a no go for the cylinder. I tried to push the issue since its much lighter, is downward firing and is cheaper. She countered with its ugly and it looks like a water heater. I lost . She however is willing to deal with the extra cost of the box version as she thinks it looks prettier.

As far as sealed sounding better for music, mostly this sub will be used for Home Theater/TV watching with a little bit of music on the side (less than 5%) so that doesnt matter to much in the equasion.

I am still hoping to get some more definitive data on the Epik Empire, but honestly am still thinking about going with the SVS just due to their quick responses to my questions, and a general availibilty of much more data on its capabilities.

Add to that the fact that since its front firing it wont be as big an issue placing as the Empire (I think).

Regarding overall sq ft. the new townhome living room is 16'1" x 13'11" x 8"-9". It is totally open to the dining room which is 11'8" x 8'8" x 8"-9". Assuming 9" ceilings it looks like the full space is ~2988 cubic feet. Will either sub have problems in a space that size?

I dont have the cash for the Ultra but I could theoretically go with dual SVS-PB12NSD's (~same price as the Plus) if they would work better. I would probably give up some of the low low stuff but would have a better overall frequency response I believe (please correct me if I am wrong)

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #26 of 32 Old 03-30-2010, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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After some emails back and forth with SVS I think I am actually going to go with dual PB-12NSD's rather than a single PB-12+ or Epik Empire.

I must give a shout-out to their customer service. I have sent them no less than 20 emails back and forth with multiple questions/request and each time they have been very professional and quick to respond. I even got a couple responses from the CEO of the company! Name me another company that you get responses within 2 hrs from someone that high up.

Overall they have significantly impressed me with both their knowledge of their products as well as their customer service.

As promised here is a picture of my new setup. I am going to be putting a sub in each location listed (unless someone sees a better option).


My next question is what additional parts do I need to run dual subs? I figure I need a splitter from my reciever as I only have one sub pre-out, but what make/model to get? I realize some of the expensive options are more snake-oil than performance (i.e. MonsterCable), but some are actually worth a couple extra bucks.

Also what things should I be aware of when moving from a single sub to duals? How do I configure them using Audysee in my Integra 5.9?

My Setup

 

 

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There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #27 of 32 Old 03-30-2010, 11:00 AM
 
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+1 on SVS' customer service, absolutely superb, second to none.

I got lucky, my wife figured she could put a small basket of dried flowers on top of the "water heater" and call it a plant stand! Doesn't really look bad at all!
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post #28 of 32 Old 03-30-2010, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by b33chtom View Post

+1 on SVS' customer service, absolutely superd, second to none.

I got lucky, my wife figured she could put a small basket of dried flowers on top of the "water heater" and call it a plant stand! Doesn't really look bad at all!

Yeah, but its ok since I will be going with dual PB-12NSD's I have a couple options I wouldn't have otherwise. I can either:
1. Place one on each side of my fronts for a symetrical look
2. Stack them on top each other (or side by side) and corner load them, which would allow them to be hidden by the chair and a half
3. Put on in the front corner (Option 1) and one by the 7ft couch (if I have space)

Can anyone comment on overall placement in a space such as mine?

My Setup

 

 

Quote:
There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

 

 

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post #29 of 32 Old 03-30-2010, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by b33chtom View Post

+1 on SVS' customer service, absolutely superd, second to none.

Gotta agree with that 100% I got dual empires and bought a SVS eq1 from SVS and they replied to both my emails within 2 hours. Its the kind of company I'd definately want to support and give my business too.
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post #30 of 32 Old 03-30-2010, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by eantala View Post

Gotta agree with that 100% I got dual empires and bought a SVS eq1 from SVS and they replied to both my emails within 2 hours. Its the kind of company I'd definately want to support and give my business too.

They are quick on replying email... but they don't answer their phone often.
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