Review: Epik Empire and Seaton Submersive - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

There will always be people to whom money is no object. For the rest of us, if a $799 sub can hold its own compared to a $2K sub that's big news! If I was to guess I'd say the Submersive will dig deeper at higher SPL, but the dual Empires would gain much of that back with proper placement. Let's see how this shakes out, I'm very anxious for some results!

And my old onkyo 10" ported could bang out 110 db, and it sounded so good! SPL alone means nothing without distortion. It seems you do have cape after all.
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Originally Posted by trolly View Post

If he likes the look of the Epik better then so be it- why dont you spend $3,500.00 on a Submersive in the finish of your dreams and a pair of Empires and do the comparison for us?

When did a SubMersive cost $3,500?

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post #92 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 03:49 PM
 
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Another fanboy? I hope the Submersive does well in the shootout, OK? I'll probably never buy one, so I really don't care. I may be interested in an Empire, however, and so I'm anxious to see the results. Anyone who isn't intrigued by the idea of the Empire doing well against the much more expensive sub is either an owner, or a koolaid drinker! Sit back and enjoy the show, folks!
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post #93 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

It's called an example to prove a point that having auto on isn't the most important detail, idle power is.

Try to keep up...

Your proving nothing if you dont know the actual power draw numbers.
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post #94 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Another fanboy? I hope the Submersive does well in the shootout, OK? I'll probably never buy one, so I really don't care. I may be interested in an Empire, however, and so I'm anxious to see the results. Anyone who isn't intrigued by the idea of the Empire doing well against the much more expensive sub is either an owner, or a koolaid drinker! Sit back and enjoy the show, folks!

If I am a SumMersive fanboy, what does that make you? So it is ok to assume that you would choose a sub for its overall SPL rather than SQ at reference? (To others who have basic comprehension skills I am not saying that the Empire has bad SQ, I have never heard it and I can't comment) But, I really would love to have some of your koolaid if you don't mind?

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post #95 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

And my old onkyo 10" ported could bang out 110 db, and it sounded so good! SPL alone means nothing without distortion. It seems you do have cape after all.


When did a SubMersive cost $3,500?

When it comes with a pair of Empires.
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post #96 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

If I am a SumMersive fanboy, what does that make you? So it is ok to assume that you would choose a sub for its overall SPL rather than SQ at reference? (To others who have basic comprehension skills I am not saying that the Empire has bad SQ, I have never heard it and I can't comment) But, I really would love to have some of your koolaid if you don't mind?

Hey Japster, lighten up OK? I said I "guessed" at some of the results (spl), I never stated I knew them. How could I possibly know distortion numbers or SQ at reference? This is a classic "David vs Goliath" matchup, and most people naturally are interested and may in fact have a leaning towards "David". Except, of course, if you already bet the farm on "Goliath"!
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post #97 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Slow your roll there... I didn't criticize his preference. I simply pointed out that if someone is picking one based on appearance they should considering the veneers offered on the Submersive.

Because I have no interest in comparing the two subwoofers for myself or anyone else. What about you? Are you going to buy 'em and do it for us?

I'm not the one whining about the finish michman likes the best. If you're going to cry over all his findings this might be a tough thread for you to hang out in.
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post #98 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

Your proving nothing if you dont know the actual power draw numbers.

Great, so you now agree with me that the actual power draw numbers are the most important detail, not whether a subwoofer has auto on/off. We're making progress... You might learn something from this thread after all.
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post #99 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

I'm not the one whinning about the finish michman likes the best. If you're going to cry over all his findings this might be a tough thread for you to hang out in.

I didn't whine about his findings. You're suffering from a reading comprehension problem. First of all, he said that he thought the Submersive had a better finish. He also said the Epik looks better in his room. I simply pointed out that if someone is worried about which sub looks better one would be recalcitrant if they didn't consider the veneer options for the Submersive.
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post #100 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I didn't whine about his findings. You're suffering from a reading comprehension problem. First of all, he said that he thought the Submersive had a better finish. He also said the Epik looks better in his room. I simply pointed out that if someone is worried about which sub looks better one would be recalcitrant if they didn't consider the veneer options for the Submersive.

Sorry 'dude- it came across as whining to me.
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post #101 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:25 PM
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Has the OP already posted his opinions or is there a consensus on which is better already based on everyone's bias?

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post #102 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Hey Japster, lighten up OK? I said I "guessed" at some of the results (spl), I never stated I knew them. How could I possibly know distortion numbers or SQ at reference? This is a classic "David vs Goliath" matchup, and most people naturally are interested and may in fact have a leaning towards "David". Except, of course, if you already bet the farm on "Goliath"!

So now you would like to resort to racist comments? Goodluck with your endeavours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

I'm not the one whinning about the finish michman likes the best. If you're going to cry over all his findings this might be a tough thread for you to hang out in.

And on that note, without tests on distortion, spl ect ,this will always be a matter of opinion. (Not that michman opinion is less than anyone elses) But some people including you have seemed to have already found out his findings. Has michman already posted, can someone give me the link b/c I missed it...

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post #103 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

So now you would like to resort to racist comments? Goodluck with your endeavours.



And on that note, without tests on distortion, spl ect ,this will always be a matter of opinion. (Not that michman opinion is less than anyone elses) But some people including you have seemed to have already found out his findings. Has michman already posted, can someone give me the link b/c I missed it...

did you figure out the $3500.00 yet?
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post #104 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:35 PM
 
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Racist comments? It was meant as a play on "napster". Sorry if I offended you, Japandave.

Feel free to make fun of Florida...
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post #105 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Racist comments? It was meant as a play on "napster". Sorry if I offended you, Japandave.

Feel free to make fun of Florida...

It did offend me and thanks for clarifying.

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post #106 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 04:39 PM
 
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It did offend me and thanks for clarifying.

Cool. You can still make fun of Florida, I know I do!
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post #107 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Dual Empires versus a single Submersive is a perfectly valid test, considering the pricepoints. If the advantage of dual subs coupled with the much lower price makes the Empires come out on top then so be it. It would mean that the duals were a better buy, given the lower cost. Comparing a single Empire to the Submersive is inherently unfair, as it is less than half the cost. Still, if the single Empire did well in comparison, what would that tell us.........!

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

What?? No bandwagon here, just curiosity. I have no idea how the dual Empires will compare to a single Submersive, but if they are comparable that would indicate a buyers choice situation, single or duals. Comparing two items when one costs much more is always a problem, if the lower cost competitor comes close in performance it's looked on like a great deal. If the higher priced item edges out the win it's viewed as an expected result, no big deal. The only way a $2K sub can be viewed as the true winner is to soundly stomp all over the lower priced sub(s), or else it will appear as overpriced. No one wants their expensive toy to look bad, so owners of Submersives may get upset about the potential results. Best of luck to the two manufacturers, let the games begin!

There is a difference between performance and value. Performance is purely objective and impersonal. Value is highly subjective and totally personal. Value judgments take into account the consumers performance desires, as well as their financial and practical considerations. These last two factors have *nothing* to do with performance. My point earlier is that I would like to see this comparison be about performance and leave the value judgments for the consumer.

To objectively compare performance, the only valid comparison is a single sub to a single sub. These are 2 very similarly designed subs. They both use dual 15" drivers. Both have the drivers mounted on opposed sides of the cabinet. Both cabinets are sealed, and both are fairly close in size. The amps are fairly similar, (the difference between a 600 watt amp and a 1,000 watt amp, (if they're both driving the same driver), is about 2 dB.) The performance comparison between these two subs is obvious.

In addition, the performance measurements, since they will be in-room measurements, should be done with each sub placed in the same position within the room. This will remove the room from the equation as much as possible. Better yet, outdoor groundplane measurements would be ideal, but that is asking an awful lot of michman.

To muck up the performance comparison by comparing dual Empires to a single Submersive turns this into a value judgment. The dual Empires can't possibly be placed in the same location as the single Submersive, and any other placement will only show room effects, negating the validity of the comparison.

I would much rather know how the 2 subs compare head to head, or one-on-one if you will, and then let consumers decide how that will extrapolate to performance in their own rooms and systems, and how that impacts their financial decisions.

If michman wants to express his value judgments about which he "likes" better, that's his prerogative. But objective performance measurements should compare one sub to one sub. At a minimum, the measurements should start with one vs one, and can expand to 1 Submersive vs. dual Empires, but the single vs. dual measurements should be clearly labeled so everyone knows what is being compared.

For the sake of openness, I am an owner of dual Submersives, (actually, I have a third one that I haven't installed yet, as I am loaning it to a friend for trial.) Nonetheless, I have no intention of replacing my Submersives with Empires. I am only interested in a fair and objective comparison.

Craig

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post #108 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:12 PM
 
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Good points Craig john, and i agree as well. I'd like to see the individual sub report, but I'm also interested in how the duals stack up. Since the OP has dual Empires at his disposal why should we have to extrapolate? Cost versus value is another debate, for now lets see how head to head AND duals versus a single Submersive works out.
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post #109 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark finally got back to me about the humming issue. I will try what
he mentioned and see if I can fix the problem. And for the record, the
XLR-RCA adaptor he sent wasn?t Radio Shack. There is a small female to
female RCA connector that is Radio Shack. He didn't have his normal
adaptor in stock so he threw this one on so I wouldn't have to wait
longer for my sub. Just wanted to clear that up for him.

The subs have been rocking. It is a lot of fun to compare subs of such
high quality. I've been pushing both sub setups a little harder every
day. So far, the dual Empires sound cleaner and more capable on movies
and every bit as good as the Submersive on music. I am still waiting
for all of the little adaptors for REW and TrueRTA so I can get them
set up for measurements. Hopefully it will arrive before the weekend!!

Some people mentioned this review as being unfair since it is one sub
versus two, but you can't ignore the price. Dual Empires are still
$500 cheaper than the Submersive. If they weren't, I wouldn't have
considered buying them in the first place. I will still try to do some
testing with one Empire versus the Submersive. In some ways that is
even more unfair since it is almost 1/3rd the price!

I promise will keep it as fair as I can. Remember that I dropped
almost 4 grand to do this test. I am now spending more on cables,
adaptors and microphones to try to document and share my results. If
you think it's unfair, you are more than welcome to do the same and
report your results. I guess you could say I have a newfound respect
for those that do this regularly.
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post #110 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:16 PM
 
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You da man, Michman!
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post #111 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:19 PM
 
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"So far, the dual Empires sound cleaner and more capable on movies
and every bit as good as the Submersive on music."

Now that was unexpected!
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post #112 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:21 PM
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Thank you michman for spending the time and money to compare the two.
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post #113 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:24 PM
 
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Now I'm REALLY anxious to see some measurements!
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post #114 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:28 PM
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We need an in-room graph to see what is going on.

When a sub doesn't play as deep, all else being equal, the perception is that it sounds cleaner than the one that does play deeper.

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post #115 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michman View Post

So far, the dual Empires sound cleaner and more capable on movies and every bit as good as the Submersive on music.

This is gonna make things interesting, especially from the submersive owners...
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post #116 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

"So far, the dual Empires sound cleaner and more capable on movies
and every bit as good as the Submersive on music."

Now that was unexpected!

I would move the subs back and forth into to the same position for testing. Moving a sub a few feet can change the perceived output at the listening position. So if the Epiks sound 'more capable' than the Submersive, make sure you move the Submersive into the same spot as the Epiks for testing - to keep things consistent. The Submersive may be in a null spot relative to the listening position. (or you may already be doing this).

I think it is completely fair to compare price vs price (2 vs 1 in this case).

The conclusion will tell you how much woof you get for the dollar.

Good job.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #117 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

"So far, the dual Empires sound cleaner and more capable on movies
and every bit as good as the Submersive on music."

Now that was unexpected!

What does "more capable" mean? I would also like to see the REW plots as soon as possible.

And for the record, I, too, am a SubMersive owner (actually four of them) and have no interest in "upgrading" or changing to any other sub, even if they cost less and are "more capable". But I also agree that comparing two to one IS reasonable because those are the options he is considering. From my own experience, one SubMersive anywhere in my room needs serious EQ to extract anywhere near it's full potential. But when I added the second one (in teh diagonal corner of the room), the FR was close to as flat as you will get without EQ and the bass was the best I have ever heard anywhere. If the OP can get the kind of bass I have (at $4000 for two SubMersives) for WAY less, more power too him.

But without real measurements (outdoor) for extension, SPL, distortion, etc we are really only looking at one person's opinion in a room that we know little about (bass absorption characteristics, decay, size, etc). As one of my math profs used to say "one point does not a trend make"!! While his opinion is a valid as anyone elses, it is just ONE opinion.
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post #118 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:47 PM
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Be it 1 vs 1, 2 vs 1 or 3 vs 1.

It all boils down to how much "utility" you get for your money.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #119 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 05:56 PM
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Be it 1 vs 1, 2 vs 1 or 3 vs 1.

It all boils down to how much "utility" you get for your money.

+1

It would be nice to see a 1 vs 1 in addition to the 1 vs 2. Mich, thank you for all of your efforts.

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post #120 of 721 Old 03-04-2010, 06:31 PM
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Thanks for all the effort michman and remember, lift with your legs

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