Review: Epik Empire and Seaton Submersive - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

That looks like a really good ground plane FR to me. No, it's not pushing hard SPL and as you say this is @ 1m but it wasn't intended to be. It is however, a useful objective measurement. Where is the gp measurement for the Empire?

So after 5 years or so one 1m gp measurement for Submersive owners to make the grand claims on...how scientific This is exactly what I tried to show by challenging them to put out the gobs of data they imply but no joy ....mostly submersive myth is based on subjective assessment and that is fine and dandy...dont go out and diss other products and subjective assessments! Let everybody enjoy their equipment and share their thoughts in peace....

By the way, can you predict how many years I have been doing this or what academic/business credentials I have from 20 sth posts??? you will most probably loose that one too but foremost Science should have taught you that assumption is the mother of all cluster f****
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post #182 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 06:40 AM
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The nerve of some people. Some of you Submersive owners need to get your head out of your ***. This is michman's thoughts on both subs in his room. He dosent need to have a experience writing sub reviews, have it peer read and approved. He satisfied the first requirement to doing this review- OWNNG THE SUBs INVOLVED. and I thank him for even posting in this forum, willing to share his thoughts on how they perform in his room. It's a risk that objectivity may color subjectivity, but this is a USER review. A...USER...REVIEW!!!.

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post #183 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Something which should be more readily acknowledged is that comparisons such as these on this forum and other forums like it do affect sales from the companies in question. (etc.)

While this all might seem important, I feel the best you can hope and aim for is to aid people doing such comparisons so they make the best decisions for themselves. See what we learn from his feedback as a nice benefit. Not butcher, degrade or pressurize the happy new owner and "make him" do stuff we'd like or expect him to do.

Over time is how we learn, not squeezing every ounce of knowledge you "need" out of the first person in a position to do some tests.

The Empire and SubMersive are aimed at a different enough market to co-exist I would think.

Maybe besides the pointers we could come up with a couple of expected performance differences and see if the OP can check if these seem to hold. Maybe the person in question would actually like the extra knowledge of such tests to make a 'better informed' decision.
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post #184 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 06:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I didn't say you should care. I was only pointing out one of the reasons for the sizable price delta between the two. Heck, just the amp in the Submersive is about the cost of the completed Empire.

Which means what? I am a little on the slow side so you have to be rational
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post #185 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

I don't want to come off as harsh BUT....your "review" is completely meaningless.

First, you did not "drop almost 4 grand" as you claimed in your first post seeing as how one or more of these subs are going back after you are through with your "tests." Which brings me to my next point. When did this change from a Review (personal) to a Test (objective)? Anyone can write a personal review. Are you qualified to run an objective test? Did you borrow these subs from Chad and Mark with the understanding you would test them and post your opinions, and/or in-room measurements on AVS? Were you vetted by either manufacturer for your qualifications?

Second, please don't take this the wrong way but who are you? 10 posts? I'm not specifically questioning your knowledge of things AV but I'm astounded nobody else has wondered how you "sprang from Zeus's ear" fully formed no less. Do you post, or have you posted on this forum with another screen name by any chance? It just seems very odd to me that a brand spankin' new member comes out of nowhere to run tests on this forum and no one gives it a second thought. Haven't we learned anything from the AV321 scandal? Didn't we all learn how to think critically in college? Has anyone else wondered if there is a hidden agenda at work here?

Lastly, I should tell you my educational background is very strong in the formulation of large extended double-blind studies. Peer review is vicious at top Universities. As a result, anyone knowledgeable seeks to form the most "elegant" study possible. Elegant. Translation: bulletproof to criticism based on bias, undue influence, or prior knowledge. Complete engineered neutrality is what everyone strives for. If a scientist begins a study with any preconceived notions at all he failed before he started.

The list of words and statements you have already made which show your bias in favor of the Epik and against the Seaton are numerous. It's not even a little bit subtle. "Mark FINALLY got back to me" (twice used), "Mark sent me a Radio Shack adapter which surprised me for a 2K sub" (later redacted), "All corners are rounded on the Empire as opposed to the SubMersive" (Who cares?), "The SubMersive hums out of the box" (ground loop), "The Empires sound tighter and cleaner for movies and just as good at music" (premature much?), "Two against one in a sound quality review is fair based on price" (only if price outweighs science), "I'll try to be as fair as possible" (uh-huh).

The only thing your review will represent is one man's opinion and even that seems to be heavily colored by your bias. I think you made up your mind before you even hatched this scheme.

I would be very interested to see a real test between these two subs but it would need to be done by a vetted impartial 3rd party. I could care less who "wins", just that the results be authentic.

Chris

What a (pulls punch) jerk
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post #186 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by michman View Post

I have been going back and forth between two subs for my home theater. I couldn't decide between a Seaton Submersive or dual Epik Empires. There are a lot of opinions online but I don't think anybody has actually heard or compared them both. Since this is such a tough decision, I went ahead and bought them both. I mean, this is a lot of cash to spend on a subwoofer setup and I really want to be happy with what I got. I went ahead and picked up the dual Empires and the Submersive last week. I will be comparing and measuring them both and will give a full report as to how they compare. I will keep whatever I like and return the other since they both have a trial period and I am local to both so there are no shipping costs.

Ordering the subwoofers made an interesting first impression. When I ordered my Empires, I just went to the Epik Subwoofers website, clicked the add-to-cart button and picked them up. It was very simple and they were easy to get ahold of. Seaton Sound has no website to order from. The only way to order a Submersive is to actually get in touch with Mark. After I tried to email him several times with no response, I actually almost gave up before he finally replied.

The packaging was similar on the subs but the Empire had a labeled, double box while the Submersive had a single, plain box. Both subwoofers weigh about the same, but the Empire is a bit smaller in size. Both are very well built. I the ordered the Submersive in the black finish which looks like it is painted over veneer. It has no edge roundovers and the grills are ½ thick magnetically attached frames with stapled cloth and little felt pads. It is very simple and clean looking. The Empire has 1 inch roundovers on every corner and has a black laminate finish. It has 1 inch thick grills with large grill pins similar to my old Velodyne DD-15. The SUBmersive has a nicer finish, but I like the look of the Empire better. Once its in the corner I don't really care.

I was surprised to see how little features the Submersive's amplifier has. It has a power switch, a volume knob and that's it. It has no internal crossover, phase switch, auto-on function, or RCA inputs. Mark supplies an adaptor to plug an RCA input into the XLR cable, but I wasn't real happy to see a Radio Shack label on the adaptor for a $2000 subwoofer. The volume knob has little indents that it kind of clicks into place, not a smooth rotary knob like the Empire and every other subwoofer I have owned before. The Empire's features aren't anything special since it has the normal phase switch, volume knob, RCA and XLR inputs, and auto-on function settings. It just looks special next to the Submersive since it has very little. I was also a little surprised that there isn't an auto-on feature on the Submersive which means that I have to turn it on every time I want to use it.

Out of the box my Submersive hummed. The supplied RCA to XLR adaptor cable made the unit hum even when it wasn't plugged into anything. I went ahead and ordered another XLR to RCA cable and almost all of the hum disappeared. But even with a cheater plug on the power cord, the SUBmersive still has a low-level hum when the receiver is on. I emailed Mark and hopefully he will have a solution for me soon. Neither of the Empires hum using the same plug so it's not coming from the outlet.

I have just started listening to them but I don't want to make any judgements about how they sound until I have spent more time with them. I have lots more listening tests to do and this will take some time. More coming soon

Let me get this straight. You bought both the Empire and the Submersive. You are going to share your thoughts on how they sound etc. Sounds good to me. Enjoy, and do let us know your exact thoughts and experiences. I for one love what you are doing. Ignore the fan bois....
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post #187 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I'm just curious to know how you know this?

I have heard this directly from Chad's mouth during a phone call. Empire's cabinets and parts made in China, assembled and tested in the USA... Not a huge secret!

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post #188 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

I don't want to come off as harsh BUT....your "review" is completely meaningless.

First, you did not "drop almost 4 grand" as you claimed in your first post seeing as how one or more of these subs are going back after you are through with your "tests." Which brings me to my next point. When did this change from a Review (personal) to a Test (objective)? Anyone can write a personal review. Are you qualified to run an objective test? Did you borrow these subs from Chad and Mark with the understanding you would test them and post your opinions, and/or in-room measurements on AVS? Were you vetted by either manufacturer for your qualifications?

Second, please don't take this the wrong way but who are you? 10 posts? I'm not specifically questioning your knowledge of things AV but I'm astounded nobody else has wondered how you "sprang from Zeus's ear" fully formed no less. Do you post, or have you posted on this forum with another screen name by any chance? It just seems very odd to me that a brand spankin' new member comes out of nowhere to run tests on this forum and no one gives it a second thought. Haven't we learned anything from the AV321 scandal? Didn't we all learn how to think critically in college? Has anyone else wondered if there is a hidden agenda at work here?

Lastly, I should tell you my educational background is very strong in the formulation of large extended double-blind studies. Peer review is vicious at top Universities. As a result, anyone knowledgeable seeks to form the most "elegant" study possible. Elegant. Translation: bulletproof to criticism based on bias, undue influence, or prior knowledge. Complete engineered neutrality is what everyone strives for. If a scientist begins a study with any preconceived notions at all he failed before he started.

The list of words and statements you have already made which show your bias in favor of the Epik and against the Seaton are numerous. It's not even a little bit subtle. "Mark FINALLY got back to me" (twice used), "Mark sent me a Radio Shack adapter which surprised me for a 2K sub" (later redacted), "All corners are rounded on the Empire as opposed to the SubMersive" (Who cares?), "The SubMersive hums out of the box" (ground loop), "The Empires sound tighter and cleaner for movies and just as good at music" (premature much?), "Two against one in a sound quality review is fair based on price" (only if price outweighs science), "I'll try to be as fair as possible" (uh-huh).

The only thing your review will represent is one man's opinion and even that seems to be heavily colored by your bias. I think you made up your mind before you even hatched this scheme.

I would be very interested to see a real test between these two subs but it would need to be done by a vetted impartial 3rd party. I could care less who "wins", just that the results be authentic.

Chris

Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. I hear a lot of talk on your part, but no action. What have you contributed other than criticism toward the one guy who's was willing to step up and compare these subs? I don't see Seaton whining and complaining about bias. All I heard from Mark was well-wishes. How about putting up your strong educational background in formulating double-blind tests and doing some comparisons yourself? If not, that strong education is about as useful as tits on a boar.
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post #189 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. I hear a lot of talk on your part, but no action. What have you contributed other than criticism toward the one guy who's was willing to step up and compare these subs? I don't see Seaton whining and complaining about bias. All I heard from Mark was well-wishes. How about putting up your strong educational background in formulating double-blind tests and doing some comparisons yourself? If not, that strong education is about as useful as tits on a boar.

Gold
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post #190 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 09:12 AM
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post #191 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

I have heard this directly from Chad's mouth during a phone call. Empire's cabinets and parts made in China, assembled and tested in the USA... Not a huge secret!

Of course, what isn't made in China!

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post #192 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 09:31 AM
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The Empire is made in China, and thus differs from previous Epik products. The Ssntinel, for instance:

"Hand-built in our own factory, our legendary cabinets give our components a rock solid foundation. All of our cabinets are designed in CAD for flawless assembly and performance. The cabinet components are then precision cut on our high speed CNC router. This results in both a reliable design as well as world-class build quality."

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post #193 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 09:45 AM
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I would venture to guess that most of their other components are made in China, regardless of where they are assembled or where they are sourced from.

It is irrelevant as every company I know has mostly made in China components, no news there...SOP in the industry.
Some make their enclosures in house, but often that is not even the case when it comes to veneered finishes.

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post #194 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michman View Post

I have been going back and forth between two subs for my home theater. I couldn't decide between a Seaton Submersive or dual Epik Empires. *snip*

What is your current subwoofer? What subs have you owned in the past?

What are your main speakers and other equipment?

Any pics of the room?
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post #195 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 10:33 AM
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It amazes me how defensive people get over their equipment. Is it not possible for two great subwoofers to coexist, and furthermore, for a particular user to like one over the other? If someone is willing to make an investment, share their personal experience, and they show no apparent bias, then fantastic. Last I checked high post count and peer review weren't preconditions for posting here.

Don't forget...someone's opposing perspective has no bearing on the enjoyment you get from your product .

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post #196 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 10:48 AM
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Great post Jahjd2000.

A lot of people come here for affirmation that there product is great instead of information about another product and lash out when there beliefs are questioned.

I hope people can be respectful of michman's conclusions instead of critical if his preference differs from there's. Unfortunately that may be asking too much if they are already defending there positions when he has not even come to a conclusion on which he prefers.

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post #197 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 11:15 AM
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WOW... The op just makes a couple brief observations and some AVS'ers(presumably Submersive owners) lose their minds. It's just HIS opinion and he is entitled to it. Plus, I think he made HIS intentions very clear going in. He wants to compare these two options from a "value first" perspective. Afterall, he is only trying to make an informed purchase based on HIS personal preferences for sound quality and aesthetics etc, all while keeping costs at a minimum. Sounds reasonable to me...

I personally thank the op for HIS "very kind" contribution to this forum and look forward to HIS review. I think many of you here owe the op some sort of apology for your rediculous statements and demands.
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post #198 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

It amazes me how defensive people get over their equipment. Is it not possible for two great subwoofers to coexist, and furthermore, for a particular user to like one over the other? If someone is willing to make an investment, share their personal experience, and they show no apparent bias, then fantastic. Last I checked high post count and peer review weren't preconditions for posting here.

Don't forget...someone's opposing perspective has no bearing on the enjoyment you get from your product .

+1

Often someone makes an observation or judgment and some act like you just kicked their mother in the teeth.

But, that is the nature of this largely anonymous medium.

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post #199 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 11:40 AM
 
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But, that is the nature of this largely anonymous medium.

Indeed it is.

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post #200 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
I don't want to come off as harsh BUT....your "review" is completely meaningless.

"I don't want to come off as harsh BUT...I'm gonna grill you now anyway." There. Fixed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
First, you did not "drop almost 4 grand" as you claimed in your first post seeing as how one or more of these subs are going back after you are through with your "tests."

Thus far he's out $4,000. It's highly likely he will send either the Submersive or the two Empires back (in which case he'll still incur shipping costs - both the costs to receive and ship back the sub(s) in question), but it's also possible he'll decide to keep them all (not likely, but possible).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
Which brings me to my next point. When did this change from a Review (personal) to a Test (objective)? Anyone can write a personal review. Are you qualified to run an objective test?

Are you serious? The guy needs credentials to compare to subs? Nobody is making this sound like an "official" scientific experiment but you...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
Did you borrow these subs from Chad and Mark with the understanding you would test them and post your opinions, and/or in-room measurements on AVS? Were you vetted by either manufacturer for your qualifications?

No, he didn't borrow them. He purchased them all. Yes, I'm sure he's being paid off by both Mark and Chad to speak highly of their subs. In fact, he's probably coming out of this endeavor in the black. Mark and Chad are widely known as lowlife ID sub manufacturers who pay off no-name AVS members to write up uber reviews for their products


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
Second, please don't take this the wrong way but who are you? 10 posts? I'm not specifically questioning your knowledge of things AV but I'm astounded nobody else has wondered how you "sprang from Zeus's ear" fully formed no less. Do you post, or have you posted on this forum with another screen name by any chance? It just seems very odd to me that a brand spankin' new member comes out of nowhere to run tests on this forum and no one gives it a second thought. Haven't we learned anything from the AV321 scandal? Didn't we all learn how to think critically in college? Has anyone else wondered if there is a hidden agenda at work here?

Someone could ask you the same thing, with but a measly 236 posts under your belt. And my 3,000+ posts are child's play compared to other members with even more posts. Big deal. Many people lurk on forums for quite a long time without posting - I know I do on other forums.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
Lastly, I should tell you my educational background is very strong in the formulation of large extended double-blind studies. Peer review is vicious at top Universities. As a result, anyone knowledgeable seeks to form the most "elegant" study possible. Elegant. Translation: bulletproof to criticism based on bias, undue influence, or prior knowledge. Complete engineered neutrality is what everyone strives for. If a scientist begins a study with any preconceived notions at all he failed before he started.

Good for you. I respect top universities and the ways in which they conduct experiments and studies. This isn't an ivy league school. It's an educational forum where people come to discuss AV. This certainly includes testing using scientific methodology, but it also involves some personal experience and preference. Obviously personal comparisons (tests, reviews...whatever you want to call them) are best performed with objective test data and subjective impressions. This amateur, unqualified, quasi-reviewer seems prepared to give both. Perhaps not up to your flawless standards, but he's willing to try. For that I commend him. I'm sure if anything ends up too out of whack (or even if it doesn't), the guy will get plenty of grief for his trouble.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
The list of words and statements you have already made which show your bias in favor of the Epik and against the Seaton are numerous. It's not even a little bit subtle. "Mark FINALLY got back to me" (twice used), "Mark sent me a Radio Shack adapter which surprised me for a 2K sub" (later redacted),

These seem like honest first impressions to me. He was a bit frustrated with the difficulty he was having in contacting Mark. People have said the same of Epik when Chad hasn't responded quickly. The OP has given no indication this will affect his test measurements or listening sessions!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
"All corners are rounded on the Empire as opposed to the SubMersive" (Who cares?), "The SubMersive hums out of the box" (ground loop), "The Empires sound tighter and cleaner for movies and just as good at music" (premature much?), "Two against one in a sound quality review is fair based on price" (only if price outweighs science), "I'll try to be as fair as possible" (uh-huh).

More first impressions! He's describing some aesthetic differences, an initial problem he had with the Submersive (which has been resolved), and some rudimentary thoughts regarding his subjective opinion of their sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
The only thing your review will represent is one man's opinion and even that seems to be heavily colored by your bias. I think you made up your mind before you even hatched this scheme.

Most listening tests do represent the listener's opinion . As for measurements, he hasn't been able to get everything set up for "testing" yet. He seems open to trying different types of testing to give each sub a fair chance. The only person who's made up his mind is you - made up your mind that this "scheme" will be useless in every sense of the word.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda
I would be very interested to see a real test between these two subs but it would need to be done by a vetted impartial 3rd party. I could care less who "wins", just that the results be authentic.
Chris

Since you're no doubt the only person qualified to perform such a "test" (not an infinitely flawed, pathetic amateur review such as the OP is undertaking), perhaps you should do it. Just a friendly suggestion

+1

A little "higher" education can be a dangerous thing.

And the more prestigious (meaning the more costly) the institution, the more likely that the ego gets attached to the illusion of distinction and to being arrogant about judging others. Other than the undoubted self-marketing benefits of a degree from the name brand institutions, it is well documented that in the hard sciences and math, at least, you can get a superior education from smaller, cheaper, less well known institutions.


To michman, the OP:

Thank you for your effort to actually contribute some information to the forum!

We among the sane salute you and look forward to your measurements, however well you are able to make them. Please just ignore the hypocritical posters; perhaps they are not getting enough time in computer game land getting their a$$ kicked... (or perhaps too much time?)

Now back to our thread, where fan bois and egotists try to shred others, humiliating/disgracing themselves in the process from the anonymity of their couches.

=>><<=robobob
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post #201 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by robobob View Post

we among the sane salute you and look forward to your measurements:d

lol....... +1

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post #202 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I read their website. Under the Empire's page it says, "Designed & assembled in our USA factory". Their previous products said, "Designed and manufactured in our own USA factory".

So, it's just your interpretation, you don't know for sure. He could have meant exactly the same thing, just used different wording in each sentence.

Don't get me wrong, you could be right. But, you also might not be.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #203 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

I have heard this directly from Chad's mouth during a phone call. Empire's cabinets and parts made in China, assembled and tested in the USA... Not a huge secret!

Ok, thats cool ... I've been keeping up on these things pretty religiously lately and havent heard any mention of where they're manufactured.

I wouldn't care less if they were made on the moon, however.

Thanks for the info ... "Mark" ...

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #204 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 01:22 PM
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hehe - 200+ post and still no data. I think regardless of what michman will measure or evaluate, someone will say we need more data to really compare the two.

Michman does not run a consumer report test or a double blind scientific study (even those have ambiguous results) he is a hobbyist comparing two products. If someone believes he has a bias or is not qualified he simply should stop reading this thread, it's that simple.


I am really thinking the manufacturers should sit together and hash out protocol to measure their products and publish the results for their products for everyone to look at. Then, as long as these measurements are done right, the consumer has some basis to compare.
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post #205 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Of course, what isn't made in China!

The Submersive, it's cabinet, it's driver and most of it's amp.
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post #206 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 02:05 PM
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Michman - do you think you could buy one of the ED A7s-650s and test against the other two?
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post #207 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 02:09 PM
 
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At least Larry has a sense of humor.

Regards,
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post #208 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by larry7995 View Post

Michman - do you think you could buy one of the ED A7s-650s and test against the other two?

Why stop there, he should have a chartered plane pick you up so you could hear all 3 for your-self

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #209 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 02:19 PM
 
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Oldfart,

Don't post much, eh ?

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post #210 of 721 Old 03-06-2010, 02:38 PM
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After wasting several minutes of my life reading through this thread, I almost want Michman to post that he was just kidding....that he never bought anything and just wanted to provide a catalyst for the children to start bickering. Like much is ever needed for that to happen in sub comparisons.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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