In-Depth A7s-450 REVIEW: w/ Numbers, Pics & VIDS! - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
below90hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
below90hz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
below90hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Okay so you’ve read the first half of my in-depth review of the A7s-450. In that half of my A7s-450 review, its clear that the sub’s performance is impressive to say the least. However, hitting high SPLs, doing so cleanly and with above-average accuracy isn’t the only thing that us consumers are looking for in a subwoofer. We’d also appreciate it if the subwoofer we buy can provide years of hassle-free enjoyment.

I have serious doubts that will happen with my A7s-450.

Now I know some of you eD fans are not going to like what you’re about to read here. And I’m sure many of you have had no problems over the past few years. That’s great, I’m happy for you. BUT – that doesn’t mean there aren’t going to be quite of a few of us who will or have had problems. And I really wish someone had been more forthcoming with this kind of information before I bought my A7s-450. I only read one review about the A7s-450 before I bought mine, the one where the guy says eD needs to address the current in-rush problem that causes circuit breakers to trip. A few more honest reviews like that of the A7s-450 and I would’ve had a clearer picture of what to expect. When I first started writing this about two months ago I really thought this would wind up being a glowing review of how smart I was to invest in an A7s-450, and put to rest potential buyers’ fears. But it just didn’t turn out that way, what happened, happened. That’s life. So now let’s talk about the bad.

I ordered my A7s-450 on 12/2/2009 and was told the new LT/1300 amps would be in around the first week of January. As we all know now, that was a joke. But I had heard so many great things about the A7s-450 and eD in general that I figured it’d be worth the wait. So when I called Alex at the end of the first week in January to see if my sub was about to ship, he tells me the amps won’t be in for a “few weeks”, and that after doing inventory he realized he had an extra LT/1300 with the old circuitry. He asked if I wanted it, I asked what was the odds of it being the kind that trips breakers. He said only 5 of 750 customers had that problem. (Later he said it was only four, and a little later the number changed to three – including me). So I said, “Sure why not?” Oh Ethan of early January, if only I could’ve passed on my wisdom to you.

Anyways so now let me summarize what happened over the next 10 weeks, but a lot happened so grab a Snickers:

1. Ordered my sub 12/2/2009 and had to wait 6 weeks for my sub – and I was looking at 12 weeks if Alex hadn’t offered that spare. And yes, that is eD’s fault because they should have never let their stock run so low that they weren’t able to ship any product with an LT/1300 for almost three months. Do you go to Chevy, order a brand new Camaro only to have your sales guy say “Enjoy your fine USA made product - but its going to be 3 months because we’re waiting for our engines to get shipped in from China.” Sorry that’s just not good business practice.

2. Finally got my sub Wednesday 1/13. Played it for 90 minutes on Friday 1/15, the next day I moved it to the location where I intended it to stay but it not only tripped a 15A cb, it also blew a fuse. No longer works. Alex only briefly entertained the thought of the amp being the problem, so I suggested maybe it was a short elsewhere -but it definitely wasn’t a short according to him.

3. Regardless Alex sent me a replacement fuse, but even after I specifically asked, he couldn’t spring a few bucks to get it to me in 3 days, I had to wait another week to have a working sub on top of the 6+ weeks I had already waited.

4. While I waited for my fuse, Alex and Brett blamed the GFCI outlet I plugged the sub into, I didn’t see the logic in that, but they seemed so sure of it so I replaced said outlet with a standard outlet. Cost me $12 for outlet and new wall plate. At least for once I didn’t electrocute myself though.

5. Received new fuse Saturday 1/23. Watched a movie that day and next Friday the 29th. Tried to move it again to the corner with the 15A cb the next day since Alex was sooooooo confident my outlet was at fault. It tripped the 15A cb and blew a fuse again.

6. This time Alex didn’t offer to send another fuse, he pretty much told me he had no intention of ordering more fuses for me and that I would just have to wait until the new amps came in – which wouldn’t be for almost another MONTH until Feb 22nd. So I had to buy my own and then Alex never even offered to tell me where to find them. I looked everywhere; the cheapest I could find was like $57. Not until I specifically asked did he finally send me a link. Another $15 I shouldn’t have had to spend.

7. Now Alex did offer to replace the amp, but at the same time wanted me to do all this work to rule out my home’s electrical wiring despite the fact that everything else worked fine on that outlet and in fact, as my electrician confirmed (and my electrician offered to explain this to Alex btw), if there was anything wrong the GFCI outlet wouldn’t have ever worked at all. Now I understand eD wanting to avoid shipping out a $450 amp if they didn’t have to, but Alex KEPT completely ignoring that simple fact about the GFCI outlet and continued to assert there was nothing wrong with the sub, causing me a lot of frustration and lost time with unnecessary emails, chat sessions and phone calls that could’ve been avoided if Alex had just admitted the obvious truth from the beginning – I got a defective product. Excuse was “Us being repetitive in asking questions is just to make sure that we are not missing anything that could be the cause of [our customers] issues.” That’s fine except when I gave Alex definitive answers that should’ve ended any speculation, Alex kept asking the same damn questions and it was clear there was a lack of comprehension on their part because at one point Alex expressed surprise that the outlet the A7s-450 didn’t have any problems with (yet) was on a 20A cb which I had already communicated to eD several times both verbally and in written form.

8. In the mean time, I received the fuses I ordered (btw if anyone needs one I have a couple spare) and during the 3 intermittent weeks that it worked out of 7 weeks owned so far, I was extremely impressed with how loud and low it could play. It did, however, have a rattle when playing very low frequencies that eD assured me would go away. I’m starting to wonder about that cuz my replacement driver has the exact same issue. At any rate I never ONCE turned the sub loud enough to hit xMax which I visually confirmed with a piece of paper I cut to represent the Xmax of the driver (actually I cut it 2mm less to be safe) which I would hold up to the driver as it moved every single time I wanted to test its capabilities (and I always played the same song btw, cuz the last thing I wanted was a little “surprise” during a song I wasn’t familiar with). Even hitting 116db at listening position the sub was not distorting at all and at most was doing about 75% xMax. See the video in PART 1 of my A7s-450 review for how little excursion is needed to produce 111db and you’ll see what I mean.

9. BUT IT DOESN’T END!!! On Sat 2/20 a few days before I got my new amp in I had the A7s-450 plugged into the outlet where it had always worked, on a 20A cb. I turned the eQ off, and it tripped the 20A CB!! Tried three times to turn the sub and eQ back on before it finally stayed on without tripping the cb. Oddly enough, this time the fuse did NOT blow. Sounds like a short, right? My brother and I had been saying that all along and time and again on phone conversations, but Alex or Brett immediately dismissed the notion.

10. 10 minutes later the sub stopped working all together; at the time I was playing it at a volume several pegs lower than when I had it hit 116db, and as usual I had visually confirmed it was only doing about 1/2 to 2/3 xMax.

11. So now I have to remove either the amp or the driver, however neither would come out. After removing ALL the screws I was able to lift the entire 140lb sub by wires I ran through the amp’s speaker posts without it even budging. It wasn’t until I used the claw end of a hammer and a metal rod through the posts to crowbar it out that it finally gave way.

12. Tested it and it turns out now the driver is no longer working. And Alex has the nerve to say there’s a possibility *I* could’ve done something to make it stop working so he needs a $125 deposit before he’ll ship a replacement?! So now I’M the problem?! It’s a sealed sub of their design. Do you know hard it is to over-drive a sub in a properly-sized sealed enclosure? If that’s possible with the A7s-450, then Alex should’ve sized the enclosure to prevent the possibility of being over-driven. But it doesn’t matter in my case cuz it never even hit THEIR definition of xMax, let alone the mechanical limits of the driver.

13. Next problem: I can’t get the non-working driver out of the enclosure by myself. And the driver was even harder than the amp to get out cuz there’s nothing to get leverage on it except by digging the tips of your fingers under the gasket.

But here’s a little video clip I got from Alex showing me how “easy” it is to take out the driver:
&fs=1" width="644" height="390">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&fs=1" />[ATTN POSTER: YouTube Insert Error: Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click 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" target="_blank">here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.]

Now here’s a video clip I made in response showing Alex how hard it actually was for me (I also made that video because I started getting the feeling Alex and company doubted what I was telling them since they seemed to blame everything but their product for my problems):
&fs=1" width="644" height="390">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&fs=1" />[ATTN POSTER: YouTube Insert Error: Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly. Click here to see how YouTube videos should be embedded. There could also be a technical issue that's not your fault. Click 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" target="_blank">here to view the video on YouTube's site. If this link doesn't work, you did something wrong.]

Two full-grown men had to exert tremendous effort to get it free – I think it even hit my bro in the face or shoulder when it finally popped free cuz we just had to do it without restraint. So yeah who do I send the bill to for all the manual labor it took to repair THEIR faulty product?

14. And to top it off, at some point in the last month, one of the round nubs on my grill broke. And it broke even when i was consciously trying to be careful not to break it. They are just too flimsy, I knew as soon as i saw the grill it would most likely break sooner or later. I never even told anyone at eD about it cuz I figured at this point they could care less. But now that you’re reading this eD, I highly recommend you come up with some beefier nubs or switch to optional magnetized grilles.

For size reference, check out how thin the plastic that actually connects to the grill is


A shot of the place where the nub snapped off.



Anywho I finally I got a new amp and new driver in, the A7s-450 works completely fine plugged into the outlet that Alex had been blaming. I had said all along there was absolutely nothing wrong with my wiring, outlet or electrical panel, and obviously I was right - which would be plain to anyone with even a passing knowledge of electronics. But no apology from eD. Instead they ignore me for three weeks as I asked about getting my $125 deposit back until I finally get a chat session with Alex where he tells me he’s only giving me a partial refund because I “over-exerted” the driver. His evidence included ripped tinsel leads which led to no “electrical connection”. Hmmmmm, hadn’t I been saying all along the symptoms sounded like there was a short somewhere? And get this: Alex even told me the amp I returned worked fine. Sooooo … if I have problems with it from day one and Alex says there’s nothing wrong with the amp – doesn’t that leave by process of elimination the driver? Hello a Second Grader could figure that out. But no. For some odd reason Alex continued his pattern of not listening to reason. All this time I was polite. I didn’t yell, I didn’t curse. I was very cordial, I even gave eD a few recommendations on this forum, not to mention returning both the driver they asked for and the $450 amp they didn’t. So why screw me in the end? Stupid stupid stupid.

So to conclude my A7s-450 review, here’s what I’ve got: a sub that pounds like the Devil but STILL has a clearly audible rattle, 11 weeks of frustration, hours of wasted time, canceled movie-watching get togethers from sub failures, extra money spent on outlet and fuses I shouldn't have had to spend, a grill that broke way too easily, a dispute on my credit card - and now the best part: I am left with a sub that is working for now – but if it fails - what do you think the odds are that eD will honor the warranty? I am so disappointed that this is how I had to end the review, but people need to know all the facts before spending so much $$$ with a company.

Bottom line: you may have a worry-free sub that actually lasts and sounds amazing, or…well things could go bad. Very bad.

EDIT: things get a bit heated on page 4, and I take responsibility for that. PLEASE do not bash eD (or me please!).

I REALLY want to start a new trend with how reviews are done, and I failed myself to keep my cool. But Alex and I have spoken and reached a common ground I believe. So please take the bad AND the good of what I've relayed and take it for what a review is: information to help folks in their purchasing decisions.


Anyways thanks for reading,
Ethan

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
below90hz is offline  
post #3 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 09:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Hksvr4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 3,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Sorry to hear about your sub and the fustration you went through. I've heard about the LT1300 amps tripping breakers. When I was in the market for a new sub, this was on my list but the amps reliability was the issue. That's the worst part about dealing with an oline company.
Hksvr4 is offline  
post #4 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 10:07 AM
Member
 
mechx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Ethan,

Thank you very much for your in depth review! I was on the fence with a sub from ED, Epik and DIY.

I have read way too many issues with ED, so this just confirmed to me drop ED from my choices. Thanks again...
mechx is offline  
post #5 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Senior Member
 
irvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Hey Ethan I kinda feel your pain. A friend of mine had some of the same issues with ED. I own an Epik Dragon and my friend after hearing mine really wanted one, but they discontinued it already. So he looked into Elemental Designs, he figured the a7s-450 would atleast be close to the Dragon with more power. He ordered one about a month later is arrived. Man this thing was heavy alittle bit bigger than my Dragon. So we plugged and played it, to our surprise no output. So we spent time checking wires, outlet, receiver setup, and still no output. He called ED and they said to check the fuse so we did everything seems ok but still no output. Then we plugged in my Dragon just to see if their was a setup error and presto we have hard hitting bass. So my buddy got frustrated and requested they send him another amp. The amp came in a week later and to our surprise no output, at this point my friend was pissed. So he called ED and they said we were doing something wrong, but my Dragon was working fine we told him. Finally my friend out of frustration just told ed he wants his money back and he will return the sub, but at his expense ouch. It cost my friend $100 to return it not to mention the RMA forms he had to fill out which are a joke. He now own a hsu uls-15. Which he is very happy with. It sure was a circus dealing with ED I tell you.
irvin is offline  
post #6 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Senior Member
 
femi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Smyrna, GA
Posts: 281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Wow, sorry to hear that man.
femi is offline  
post #7 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 10:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsoko2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 4,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 56
I at one time had dual 450's in my living room HT and ran them off the same breaker and had no issues. I found the Ed A7-450's to be excellent sealed subwoofers for the $$$ and the customer service was first rate. Once in awhile with any company, sh*t happens so I wouldn't think that your situation is the norm for Ed.

Just my own experince with Ed, Bill
bsoko2 is offline  
post #8 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 10:49 AM
Member
 
godzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
yah man...i appreciate your thorough write-up and complete honest opinion. We need more people like you. So many times, reviews keep on spitting out bullsh*t and rave about their purchase, choosing to ignore posting about their distaste on "certain aspects" of their purchased. No product is perfect people.

you always hear bullsh*t like this sub will annihilate the other or it will leave this in the dust...whatever man...people who writes thing like that are dumb

For example. I recently became interested in purchasing a SVS MTS-01 floor-standers. I read a couple of glowing reviews. In one particular thorough review, the author stated that he loves the speaker but had to return it because he was so invested in his other purchased. Well, I asked him in private to compare that to other speakers I was interested in. He admitted that although it was good, it didn't knock his socks off. That is totally different from what was written in public....
godzen is offline  
post #9 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 10:53 AM
Member
 
godzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I at one time had dual 450's in my living room HT and ran them off the same breaker and had no issues. I found the Ed A7-450's to be excellent sealed subwoofers for the $$$ and the customer service was first rate. Once in awhile with any company, sh*t happens so I wouldn't think that your situation is the norm for Ed.

Just my own experince with Ed, Bill

You said you had no problem with the product. I'm happy for you. So then, what reference did you use to grade ED's customer service since you didn't run into any problem?

a. they were polite and courteous when making the transaction?
b. they answer a few basic questions and made you feel at home?
c. Or you had problems and they tried hard to solve it?
d. none of the above?
godzen is offline  
post #10 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 11:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GoCaboNow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,871
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Hey Ethan, nice write up. I hope it eventually works out for you. Your experience is similar to my MFW15 experience with all the hands on swapping of components.

I am looking to add duel subs to the MFW and the A7S-450 was on the top of my list or going DIY. How does the A7s compare to the MFW?

Location: Beaverton, Oregon
My Dedicated Home Theater Room
GoCaboNow is offline  
post #11 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 11:20 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 396
Man, I am selling my sono's for $200 each and 2 of them with a Behringer ep-2500 would cost $650-$700 without shipping. I never had any trouble with my sono's(eD 190v.2), I did wire them myself(Axiom 12 gauge) and with a different amp. I have had experience like this before with a different company accusing me to be the problem when the equipment never worked 100% from the start. Is there more to this story? I mean the other side of the story? Many companies have problems at times but if they resolve it I guess that is what matters in the end, although the journey can be very frustrating and feel like you are being attacked. It happened to me. I am glad it worked out for you, I guess. The question is would you buy from them again? I guess no even though the sub is performing well after all this. I have waited 2 months before for speakers when the quote was 3-4 weeks. It happens to ID companies. Even the SVS pb/13 ultra had amp failures when it came out, did they fix all the problems? I have not heard of any. I know a few people who use eD products or just their amps(1300) and never had any problems. It sucks to be the unlucky one. Again, it happened to me with an amp company.
MKtheater is online now  
post #12 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
below90hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hi folks I'm at work right now, so I don't have time to reply to everyone. I'll have more time tonight. For now let me just reiterate that I didn't write this review to imply this is what every single purchase from eD will be like. Like I said in the review, I'm sure many folks have had a great experience with eD. However, I did not, and I can't ignore that fact just because right now the sub is working fine. I provided all the pros and cons of my experience and that is all, no more, no less. eD is more than welcome to chime in.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
below90hz is offline  
post #13 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 01:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Thanks for taking the time to review. I can see you put a lot of time into it! Much appreciated!

I wish it would have worked out better for you, but glad to hear you're happy with the product in the end (hopefully, this will be the 'end'!).

I should be getting my A7s-450 this week with the new LT1300. I hope I have better luck with it than you did! I've had an a2-300 for about 2 months that I've been very happy with, but just wanted more/lower output. My experience with eD has been excellent and ultimately why I ordered the A7s-450 over the Epik Empire.

A couple of questions for you:

1. Can you compare the sound differences between 2 smaller subs compared to one big sub? I noticed you went from 2 JBL's to 1 A7s-450. I also pondered getting an additional a2-300 so that I would have 2 subs, but instead went with the A7s-450 because it had more output than dual a2-300's down to 10hz or so. I wanted to make sure I could call upon my sub at anytime without worrying I'm playing it too loud. With the a2-300, I started to get distortion when I really started to push it...

2. Can you compare the difference from going from ported enclosures to a sealed enclosure?
dominguez1 is online now  
post #14 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 01:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
LF911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New Hampshire Seacoast
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
below90hz,
Thank you for the review...and I'm really sorry to hear about your problems. It really does suck when going through something like that. I recently ordered a sub from eD....one of the reasons why I purchased a sub from them was because of the way they dealt with me during the week long process of choosing a sub. I must have sent 20 - 25 e-mail to Alex and Brett. Spoke with them another 3 or 4 times over the phone. I ordered one model, canceled it, then ordered a different model. They were patient and really went out their way to answer my questions. Your experience with eD is just 180 degrees from what I have been experiencing. Granted, yours is after the purchase and mine before. I hope your sub problems are over.
LF911 is offline  
post #15 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 01:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
spyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
What is really troubling with Ed is the fact that when a published review reveals a problem, be it the LT1300 tripping breakers or lousy low frequency performance, Alex jumps right in and blames the reviewer, never admitting that the Ed product in question may have issues.

Then, 6-12 months later Ed announces revisions to the products that had problems. Now the LT-1300 has some kind of soft start to avoid tripping breakers and other subs have been redesigned to address other issues.
spyboy is offline  
post #16 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 01:49 PM
Senior Member
 
xceebeex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

I provided all the pros and cons of my experience and that is all, no more, no less. eD is more than welcome to chime in.

I am interested to see if eD actually does chime in. I was just having this discussion with them about what my opinions were on lead times and one of their main reasons behind the lead times is because they like to do everything in house with no outsourcing in an effort to "hand pick" who doees their work.

Then you hear stories like this and it seems like there are starting to be more and more reliablity issues. I still see more positive than negative reviews and I would honestly still consider them if they can fix wait time issues (with the A2-300 specifically) and come back down in price. BUT I never like to hear these stories where the blame also seems to be on the consumer. It is good to see someone take the time to put something like this out there (assuming it is the whole story).
xceebeex is offline  
post #17 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 02:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsoko2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 4,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by godzen View Post

You said you had no problem with the product. I'm happy for you. So then, what reference did you use to grade ED's customer service since you didn't run into any problem?

a. they were polite and courteous when making the transaction?
b. they answer a few basic questions and made you feel at home?
c. Or you had problems and they tried hard to solve it?
d. none of the above?

In answer to your question, A, B, & C (and did solve it). Also, everythime I called I got to talk to a real person that knew what he was doing.

Bill
bsoko2 is offline  
post #18 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
LF911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New Hampshire Seacoast
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechx View Post

Ethan,

Thank you very much for your in depth review! I was on the fence with a sub from ED, Epik and DIY.

I have read way too many issues with ED, so this just confirmed to me drop ED from my choices. Thanks again...



mechx,
I'm curious, and sincere...what other issues are you writing about?? Link???

Thanks.
LF911 is offline  
post #19 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chashint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Thanks for posting the review, it is very much appreciated.
Very revealing.

Regards,
Charlie

chashint is offline  
post #20 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 03:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
peterpioli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quick, someone tell me how many of these I could have purchased for the same price of one boutique brand subwoofer.
peterpioli is offline  
post #21 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 04:16 PM
Member
 
godzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

In answer to your question, A, B, & C (and did solve it). Also, everythime I called I got to talk to a real person that knew what he was doing.

Bill

A & B I could careless about

can you expand on C? what kind of problem? a few placement problems or real reliability issues?
godzen is offline  
post #22 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Member
 
mechx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

mechx,
I'm curious, and sincere...what other issues are you writing about?? Link???

Thanks.


You can read this page here:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers/...hread-341.html

Some have had problems here, you can check the whole thread, I think I have read almost all of it, it's huge.

Just keep in mind, there are alot of happy owners as well, but for me, personally, and I seem to have bad luck anyway. There's just too many issues for me, I'm sure ED will work it out, but people are still have issues with Blown fuses...

No one is perfect, heck, with my luck I will probably go with Epik and have issues. Then wish I went with ED. LOL
You just have to research and make a decision, hopefully it's the right one.
mechx is offline  
post #23 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Member
 
scyan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ethan, thanks VERY much for taking the time to go through everything that's happened with your sub.
scyan is offline  
post #24 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
LF911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New Hampshire Seacoast
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechx View Post

You can read this page here:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers/...hread-341.html

Some have had problems here, you can check the whole thread, I think I have read almost all of it, it's huge.

Just keep in mind, there are alot of happy owners as well, but for me, personally, and I seem to have bad luck anyway. There's just too many issues for me, I'm sure ED will work it out, but people are still have issues with Blown fuses...

No one is perfect, heck, with my luck I will probably go with Epik and have issues. Then wish I went with ED. LOL
You just have to research and make a decision, hopefully it's the right one.

Thanks mechx...
LF911 is offline  
post #25 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 05:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
yadfgp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Meridian, Idaho
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 35
This is really disapointing. Thanks for the very thorough review. I had planned on ordering either 2 A5-350's or 2 A7S-450's this very week, but with the extremely long wait time plus this review, I'm gonna start looking at other options I guess. I had talked to a few of the eD guys and they've been very helpful but not worth taking a chance on it seems. Good luck with your subs.

1 Mitsubishi WD-82642 82" TV
1 Onkyo TX-NR929 11.4 setup
2 Emotiva XPA-5's
1 Emotiva XPA-100
1 Definitive Technology CLR 3000 (Center)
2 Definitive Technology BP2004TL's (Mains)
2 Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000's (Heights)
6 Definitive Technology BPX's (Rears Wides Sides)
4 CHT VS-18.1 Subs
yadfgp is online now  
post #26 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 05:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bsoko2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 4,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by godzen View Post

A & B I could careless about

can you expand on C? what kind of problem? a few placement problems or real reliability issues?

Amp sensitivity! Just how high should the gain be turned up in order to get the "slam". I had duals!

Bill
bsoko2 is offline  
post #27 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 05:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
dondino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm sorry you had to go through that OP. We all have our purchase nightmares at one time or another.

I do not own eD, nor have I ever however I don't think this is normal. I'm sure an extremely high percentage of what they sell end up with satisfied customers. They wouldn't be where they are now if this was normal.

Just my 2 cents.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
dondino is offline  
post #28 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 07:43 PM
Member
 
rswelter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ethan, your not alone..

I am one of the other 3 to 5 folks that have had Circuit breaker (C/B) problems. I have not blown any fuses. I am having my own trials and tribulations with ED myself.

My first A7s-450 which was delayed because flaws were found in the finish and it was being sent back to get refinished. The sub arrives and behold I see flaws in the finish myself. After sending pics they say the now found scratches happened after it had left the factory?? So the sub goes back to the paint shop again for refinishing. More delays.

When I finally get the sub I am having the C/B tripping problem. My home wiring was initially blamed. To ED's credit though they agreed to send me a new amp (swap out for the orig. amp) that has the slow start circuit that addresses the C/B tripping problems?? Funny they would redesign an amp for only 5 people? Anyway the amp came damaged. The bolt head that holds the large toroidal transformer was sheared off and was moving freely in the case. Again to their credit they shipped a replacement. Unfortunately, the replacement had hairline scratch in it. Someone even went to the trouble of trying to cover it up with a sharpie pen. Their were some other minor smudges in the finish as well. The amp looked like a "B" stock amp or one that was possibly modified with the new circuit. The good news is that the new circuit design worked perfectly. I had no more problems with my c/b being tripped. I notified them about the scratch in two emails and received no reply.

I finally gave in and shipped the scratched amp back to them. Still no response?? Whats up Doc!! I am currently back to square one with the original amp that trips my C/B panel.

I will give them one more chance before I put this beast up for sale and call this purchase a mistake and another one of life's lessons.

I will update this post and let you know what happens.
rswelter is offline  
post #29 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
below90hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by irvin View Post

Hey Ethan I kinda feel your pain. A friend of mine had some of the same issues with ED. ...Finally my friend out of frustration just told ed he wants his money back and he will return the sub, but at his expense ouch. It cost my friend $100 to return it not to mention the RMA forms he had to fill out which are a joke. ...It sure was a circus dealing with ED I tell you.

Yes I kept waiting for that amazing customer service I read about on these forums, and it never happened. My brother-in-law's A5-350 came with a damaged driver too - he got a replacement with no deposit required and no hassle. I had way worse problems and I get treated like suspect zero. what the heck is up with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I at one time had dual 450's in my living room HT and ran them off the same breaker and had no issues. I found the Ed A7-450's to be excellent sealed subwoofers for the $$$ and the customer service was first rate. Once in awhile with any company, sh*t happens so I wouldn't think that your situation is the norm for Ed.

Just my own experince with Ed, Bill

I completely agree. I even told Alex although I was frustrated I wasn't mad at them about the component failures because $#!t happens. But on the other hand the constant emails and chat sessions and phone calls where I kept having to repeat myself and then the attitude like "We have the best customer service ever, we are sending you replacement parts and you have to fix it yourself that makes us awesome so don't ask for anything else" was not something I was expecting from what I read on this forum. And I surely did not think they would possibly think I could've done anything to harm a sub that they knew had issues from day one. I know they don't do that to everyone, but I wish I had known there was a chance it could happen before I bought my sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godzen View Post

yah man...i appreciate your thorough write-up and complete honest opinion. We need more people like you. So many times, reviews keep on spitting out bullsh*t and rave about their purchase, choosing to ignore posting about their distaste on "certain aspects" of their purchased. No product is perfect people.

you always hear bullsh*t like this sub will annihilate the other ... He admitted that although it was good, it didn't knock his socks off. That is totally different from what was written in public....

thank you, that is exactly what I was going for. the A7s-450 is an impressive performer - I still love watching that video where the driver is only doing like 1/3 xMax and then the camera walks over to the SPL meter and Hello! - its doing 111db at the listening position! but that's not the full story and people need to know the good AND the bad. the funny thing is - if eD hadn't given me such a hard time my review would probably be creating orders for them. but I never told them i was writing one so that I would get their honest customer service. unfortunately in my particular case they just dropped the ball big time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

Hey Ethan, nice write up. I hope it eventually works out for you. Your experience is similar to my MFW15 experience with all the hands on swapping of components.

I am looking to add duel subs to the MFW and the A7S-450 was on the top of my list or going DIY. How does the A7s compare to the MFW?

i honestly don't know. the MFW-15 I heard was Sandbagger's modified souped-up MFW, and I was listening at Craigsub's house which is a much different environment. so all i'd be able to do is guess, and my guess is as good as yours. but if your curious, my guess is the A7s-450 would clearly outperform an MFW-15 if you eQ'd it. but if you can DIY you'll most likely get the most bang for your buck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

... Is there more to this story? I mean the other side of the story? ...The question is would you buy from them again? I guess no even though the sub is performing well after all this.

there's always two sides, eD is welcome to chime in. but to be honest, I WAS going to purchase another A7s-450 later this year - even after all my problems and frustrations, if eD had come thru in the end I was willing to look past it cuz I thought. In fact, Alex knew I wanted to buy another A7s-450 cuz I told him i did and I asked if I bought another one if he'd be willing to give me a discount for my troubles and he said yes. And then turned around and refused to fully refund my deposit and lied about why he gave me only a partial refund. so that and the fact that there seems to be far too many reports of component failures on these boards made me change my mind. next sub: DIY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


A couple of questions for you:

1. Can you compare the sound differences between 2 smaller subs compared to one big sub?

well my JBLs are not in the same league as the A2-300 at all. so I can only go by what I've read, and from eD's specs the A7s-450 is going to move a LOT more air than dual A2-300s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

2. Can you compare the difference from going from ported enclosures to a sealed enclosure?

good question. every single sub - home audio and car audio I've ever owned has been ported. so I thought there'd be a different "sound" too, but I didn't notice any after I eQ'd it. explosions, music, sound effects all sound just as nice on a sealed sub as a ported. just need to eQ a sealed sub to bring up the slam on 25hz and below material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

What is really troubling with Ed is the fact that when a published review reveals a problem, be it the LT1300 tripping breakers or lousy low frequency performance, Alex jumps right in and blames the reviewer, never admitting that the Ed product in question may have issues.

Then, 6-12 months later Ed announces revisions to the products that had problems. Now the LT-1300 has some kind of soft start to avoid tripping breakers and other subs have been redesigned to address other issues.

you know you have a point. when Alex told me I was a special case and they never have the kind of problems I had, I pointed out that reviewer and other people did, and he said mine was different because the fuse blew too. I never got how mine tripping a CB AND blowing a fuse meant that the sub must not be the problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xceebeex View Post

I am interested to see if eD actually does chime in. ...It is good to see someone take the time to put something like this out there (assuming it is the whole story).

eh, there's prolly a few things i forgot (maybe good for eD, maybe worse, I don't know cuz I forgot them) but I kept emails, notes and saved chat sessions so its pretty much most of the story. i'm interested to see what eD says too. if they decide to make things right, I will certainly share that, cuz that's important too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

This is really disapointing. Thanks for the very thorough review. I had planned on ordering either 2 A5-350's or 2 A7S-450's this very week, but with the extremely long wait time plus this review, I'm gonna start looking at other options I guess. I had talked to a few of the eD guys and they've been very helpful but not worth taking a chance on it seems. Good luck with your subs.

yes let me say this for eD, although they frustrated the crap outta me (literally, I had to take a crap every time I got done communicating with them ) they were always very polite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I'm sorry you had to go through that OP. We all have our purchase nightmares at one time or another.
I do not own eD, nor have I ever however I don't think this is normal. I'm sure an extremely high percentage of what they sell end up with satisfied customers. They wouldn't be where they are now if this was normal.

oh i'm sure this isn't normal at all. i'm sure they are much more helpful with most of their customers. I hope I conveyed that clearly enough in my review, but at the same time when something like this happens, people need to know the good and the bad. cuz let's say someone else has a sub that blows a fuse - now they have a good idea what the problem is and eD can't say "this never happened to anyone else, you must've damaged it." this also helps potential buyers see how awesome the sub performs but that there are risks as well.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
below90hz is offline  
post #30 of 385 Old 04-12-2010, 07:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I'm sorry you had to go through that OP. We all have our purchase nightmares at one time or another.

I do not own eD, nor have I ever however I don't think this is normal. I'm sure an extremely high percentage of what they sell end up with satisfied customers. They wouldn't be where they are now if this was normal.

Just my 2 cents.

+1 to that.

It's truly unfortunate that your experience was they way it was. Certainly, no one can take your opinion away from you and you have every right to express it.

What is more unfortunate is for people to take this out of context. As everyone knows, forums by their very nature highlight problems much more than praise. And even if praise is abundant, it's human nature to focus on the problems (ever watch the nightly news?). A person is more apt to vent about issues rather than praise the product; especially at length. I'm glad to see that Ethan did both.

I would bet if eD were rated as a vendor for subwoofers at a place like Amazon (they actually are on Amazon - 4.5 stars out of 5, but not just for subs) or ebay, they would have a very high rating.

Yes, like all other vendors on Amazon or ebay that have high ratings, they have customers that they have not gotten it right with for one reason or another, but at the end of the day you're still doing business with a company that has a track record of positive feedback...it may not stick out in these forums, but like I said; it's the nature of the beast.

I have had excellent, excellent customer service. Granted, I haven't had serious problems, but they have answered every question I've thrown at them with a smile on their face including; "are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet". Now, if I end up in the same situation as Ethan, I'll likely be an unhappy customer as well. But I'm betting that was a one off and mine will be just fine.

Also, for those looking at the a7s-450, it's shipping with the new amp that was specifically developed to correct the tripped circuits that some have been experiencing. It's also shipping with a free eq.2.
dominguez1 is online now  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off