Official JTR Orbit Shifter Subwoofer Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 192Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-16-2010, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

Any photos of the event showing people's reaction to being gut kicked?

RMK - is your room sound proofed from the rest of the house?

No photo's although Fugueness is a professional photographer and he took some shots that I hope he will post soon. You should check out his website as he is doing some very cool things these days.

Re sound proofing, I heavily insulated the HT room floor and the only wall that has a room connecting it is a shear wall with sheathing. All of the other walls are exterior with 2"X6" studs and are insulated. Not a lot of sound (except the low frequencies ) escapes to the outside. Since I am single it is just me to worry about so what the hey .... A couple of people at the Meet commented that the noise level down stairs and in other areas of the house was "not too bad" even though we had it cranked up for demos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leffe67 View Post

The Growler Duo is listed at 120lbs
The Orbit Shifter is listed at 160lbs

As for the crossover, RMK is using the JTR Triple 12HT's up front for his L/C/R. I can attest to the fact that the Triple 12's can definitely cover the 60hz to 120hz range with plenty of punch. It would, however, be interesting to hear from RMK if he had played with the crossover levels and where he ended up.

For the LFE channel, I would assume that RMK is running his OS' all the way up to 120hz, or whatever the 0.1 channel specification is.


Yes, that's the weight and Jeff and I carried them (and the new T12's) up my very long flight of stairs (BTW, he was more gassed than the old man)

I have them crossed at 60HZ and may play with different crossovers but not until I get the XTZ Room Analyzer so that I can see whats happening to the response. Right now it is sounding stellar so no need to mess with it blind. The Integra low pass is at the max 120Hz and it is a .2 (two distinct subwoofer channels).

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-17-2010, 08:34 AM
Senior Member
 
drhack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago Subs
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

No photo's although Fugueness is a professional photographer and he took some shots that I hope he will post soon. You should check out his website as he is doing some very cool things these days.

Re sound proofing, I heavily insulated the HT room floor and the only wall that has a room connecting it is a shear wall with sheathing. All of the other walls are exterior with 2"X6" studs and are insulated. Not a lot of sound (except the low frequencies ) escapes to the outside. Since I am single it is just me to worry about so what the hey .... A couple of people at the Meet commented that the noise level down stairs and in other areas of the house was "not too bad" even though we had it cranked up for demos.

The site looks cool - esp the animated short on the Hakata Bay.

What insulation did you use for the HT room floor - is it std insulation bales or something else? In my new place the basement is in the HT and am looking for ideas on how to insulate for the floor above.

President Muffley: Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!!
drhack is offline  
Old 06-17-2010, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

The site looks cool - esp the animated short on the Hakata Bay.

What insulation did you use for the HT room floor - is it std insulation bales or something else? In my new place the basement is in the HT and am looking for ideas on how to insulate for the floor above.

I just used the thickest R factor fiberglass I could fit in the 12" space. I was more concerned about strength and weight handling so I added extra floor joists and placed them 16" OC where code required only 24" OC spacing. As those who have heard it can attest, the floor still moves pretty good when the subs get going . If I had a do over, I would probably use rock wool and regular insulation and double sheet the subfloor. But even that wouldn't stop the bass.

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-17-2010, 12:31 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,880
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 475 Post(s)
Liked: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

The site looks cool - esp the animated short on the Hakata Bay.

What insulation did you use for the HT room floor - is it std insulation bales or something else? In my new place the basement is in the HT and am looking for ideas on how to insulate for the floor above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I just used the thickest R factor fiberglass I could fit in the 12" space. I was more concerned about strength and weight handling so I added extra floor joists and placed them 16" OC where code required only 24" OC spacing. As those who have heard it can attest, the floor still moves pretty good when the subs get going . If I had a do over, I would probably use rock wool and regular insulation and double sheet the subfloor. But even that wouldn't stop the bass.

RMK, I don't want to hijack your thread, but you responded about this, so I'm going to take the liberty of offering my thoughts as well.

RMK is right, the insulation will do little to stop the bass. Therefore, I wouldn't use it for that purpose. However, stuffing the overhead joists with pink fluffy fiberglass can serve another, highly beneficial purpose. Use it as an acoustic treatment/bass trap. That's what I did in my basement HT. I stuffed the intra-joist spaces with R-19 pink fluffy fiberglass batts. Then I added an acoustic dropped ceiling 3" below the joists. Between the acoustic absorption of the insulation:
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
and the acoustic absorption of the ceiling tiles:
http://www.certainteed.com/products/.../smooth/314118
I ended up with about 12" of acoustic absorption... across the entire ceiling. IOW, my ceiling is one large bass trap and broadband absorber. In addition, I used the Black Nubby finish, which has an extremely low light reflectivity. This reduces the reflected light from the ceiling and increases the perceived contrast of the image on my 128" SeymourAV AT screen. Between the black ceiling covering the acoustic insulation, the burgundy velvet drapes covering the front and side wall acoustic treatments, and the dark brown, heavy carpet over thick pad on the floor, the front of my room is a "black hole" for both light and sound.

I really like the look of the black ceiling in my basement HT, and it serves 2 other useful purposes as well.

Now, back to shifting the earth's orbit...

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
Old 06-17-2010, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

RMK, I don't want to hijack your thread, but you responded about this, so I'm going to take the liberty of offering my thoughts as well.

RMK is right, the insulation will do little to stop the bass. Therefore, I wouldn't use it for that purpose. However, stuffing the overhead joists with pink fluffy fiberglass can serve another, highly beneficial purpose. Use it as an acoustic treatment/bass trap. That's what I did in my basement HT. I stuffed the intra-joist spaces with R-19 pink fluffy fiberglass batts. Then I added an acoustic dropped ceiling 3" below the joists. Between the acoustic absorption of the insulation:
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
and the acoustic absorption of the ceiling tiles:
http://www.certainteed.com/products/.../smooth/314118
I ended up with about 12" of acoustic absorption... across the entire ceiling. IOW, my ceiling is one large bass trap and broadband absorber. In addition, I used the Black Nubby finish, which has an extremely low light reflectivity. This reduces the reflected light from the ceiling and increases the perceived contrast of the image on my 128" SeymourAV AT screen. Between the black ceiling covering the acoustic insulation, the burgundy velvet drapes covering the front and side wall acoustic treatments, and the dark brown, heavy carpet over thick pad on the floor, the front of my room is a "black hole" for both light and sound.

I really like the look of the black ceiling in my basement HT, and it serves 2 other useful purposes as well.

Now, back to shifting the earth's orbit...

Craig

Good info Craig, I guess i inadvertently did the same thing .

You guys with basements are lucky but the tactile effects of a suspended floor can be fun too.

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-17-2010, 02:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MIkeDuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: eastern PA
Posts: 6,878
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Good info Craig, I guess i inadvertently did the same thing .

You guys with basements are lucky but the tactile effects of a suspended floor can be fun too.

How about us guys with just a second floor "bonus" room with no special construction additions what so ever. There is no way at all to even try and contain the sound. But Craig will hear that for himself next Sat .

It ain't easy being green.
My System
MIkeDuke is offline  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ransac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tryon, NC
Posts: 4,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Hi Rob,
Long time no speak.

Do you still have the SPUDs active, or have they been relegated to being just a seating platform?

Randy
ransac is offline  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Hi Rob,
Long time no speak.

Do you still have the SPUDs active, or have they been relegated to being just a seating platform?

Hi Randy,

It has been a while. Hope all is well with you.

The SPUDS have moved on to a new home and the riser is now a very heavy bass trap or resonator, I'm not sure. There have been many changes since your last visit. You should come over for a look/listen.

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-19-2010, 08:54 AM
Newbie
 
kmenon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Chesterfield, NJ 08515
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Talk about midbass slam!! The Orbit Shifters punch you in the gut and rattle your rib cage, all while delivering incredibly clean, detailed, and powerful LFE. It was simultaneously exhilarating and eerie actually, resulting in a bit of cognitive dissonance - so much output, yet clean as a whistle. I'd seen the Avatar scenes we demoed in two of the best-sounding commercial theaters in the country (SF Metreon IMAX, Arclight Cineramadome in Hollywood) and this was the by far the cleanest sounding and most impactful midbass I've experienced. Very impressive. I think it sets a new bar above 25Hz. Bravo, Jeff! It was also fun watching people flinch physically from the massive impact - literally taken aback (will post photos later). Even during scenes that most of us have seen many times. Hm, perhaps I will have to get one (or two).

Here are Jeff Meier's thoughts: http://twitter.com/HomeCinemaGuru/status/16028530076

The picture thrown by the RS-35 looked absolutely stunning post-calibration on the Seymour AT screen - perfection!

Thanks for putting on the meet, Rob!

So if you are to choose between Danley DTS-10 and Orbiter Shifter and space not an issue which one will you choose.

I was very interested in DTS-10 till I read this post and now am confused, I have not heard any of these subs.

Thanks

K. Menon
kmenon is offline  
Old 06-19-2010, 09:39 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
millerwill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 11,949
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmenon View Post

So if you are to choose between Danley DTS-10 and Orbiter Shifter and space not an issue which one will you choose.

I was very interested in DTS-10 till I read this post and now am confused, I have not heard any of these subs.

Thanks

I believe RMK had the Danley before the Orbiter, so his thoughts would be esp useful.
millerwill is online now  
Old 06-19-2010, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Bley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: IL. USA
Posts: 2,737
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I believe RMK had the Danley before the Orbiter, so his thoughts would be esp useful.

He had two of the original SPUD's that used 8" drivers. The DTS-10 "SUPER" SPUD has two 12" drivers and will play down lower. In it's kit form it was an absolute steel price to performance ratio.

I hope someone in northern part of Illinois gets an Orbit Shifter, I'd love to hear one. Jeff makes great products, I'm still loving my Triple 8's almost a year with them already.
Tom Bley is online now  
Old 06-19-2010, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I believe RMK had the Danley before the Orbiter, so his thoughts would be esp useful.

I believe Peter (Fugueness) is out of the country. I have not heard a DTS-10 but Peter had a chance to demo the DTS-10 prior to his comments in this thread. Nuff said?

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-19-2010, 06:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 16,436
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1268 Post(s)
Liked: 930
The DTS-10 is a funny beast and takes lots of tweaking to sound like it should. Hearing a single DTS-10 in a completely different room vs dual OS in another will not help at all. It needs to be in the same room and calibrated exactly the same way for the best results.

Marantz 7702 Atmos
3 Inuke NU4-6000 amps for all speakers.
Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
Front subs 8 SI 18ht ported SLLT powered by Peavy IPR 7500
Rear subs 4 SI 18HT ported SLLT powered by Inuke 6000.
MKtheater is offline  
Old 06-21-2010, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The DTS-10 is a funny beast and takes lots of tweaking to sound like it should. Hearing a single DTS-10 in a completely different room vs dual OS in another will not help at all. It needs to be in the same room and calibrated exactly the same way for the best results.

I spoke to Fugueness at length about the DTS-10. His comments were not a comparison to the OS's any more than they were to his quad Submersives. They were limited to the DTS10 and how it sounded to him in that unique space. He acknowledged that setup (placement or EQ) may have been a factor in what he heard.

Like any bass box, those are critical issues and not limited to the DTS-10's. As these boxes get bigger, the problems are compounded.

Danley's decision to release the Kit and therefore effectively expose their costs on the product was an interesting marketing tactic. I suppose it was successful from a number of units sold perspective, but it clearly was not a money maker. Whether they can now sell essentially the same box for 3X the price is TBD.

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-21-2010, 12:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 16,436
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1268 Post(s)
Liked: 930
There are many people with the DTS-10 not having a positive experience with either the amp wiring or placement. It seems many had less than stellar performance until they get it right. It happened to me and everyone thought my old setup sound better than the dual danley's. Since figuring things out that is not the case anymore. When you hit 127 db's were the subs running flat with the mains? It might have been in the region with your peaks? I can tell you that the Danley's are superb when done right(EQ'd, flat, and proper placement). I am sure the OS are superb as well. I loved the triple 8 when I had them. I was the first to have a 7.0 JTR system on here(soundood does not count as he was a dealer). I am glad the word spread because Jeff makes great products. Whose DTS-10 did Fugueness listen to?

Marantz 7702 Atmos
3 Inuke NU4-6000 amps for all speakers.
Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
Front subs 8 SI 18ht ported SLLT powered by Peavy IPR 7500
Rear subs 4 SI 18HT ported SLLT powered by Inuke 6000.
MKtheater is offline  
Old 06-21-2010, 06:45 PM
Advanced Member
 
bodhisafa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 39046
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Like any bass box, those are critical issues and not limited to the DTS-10's.


Care to share what those limitations maybe for the orbit shifter?
bodhisafa is offline  
Old 06-21-2010, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

Care to share what those limitations maybe for the orbit shifter?

Like the DTS-10, the Orbit shifter is a big subwoofer. That can cause placement limitations and that may effect performance. I got lucky in that the first place we tried was the best location in my room and that location produced the raw data graph posted above.

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-22-2010, 11:33 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff Permanian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 915
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Comparing a Orbit Shifter LF and a DTS-10 is like comparing a sealed subwoofer (OS) and a vented subwoofer (DTS). The DTS has an advantage in sensitivity in the 15-25hz range but then needs a highpass filter to prevent over excursion. The Orbit Shifter can handle double the power, its driver can displace double the air volume as the pair of 12's and it doesn't need a highpass filter.

Both are great subwoofers and each has their trade offs.
Jeff Permanian is offline  
Old 06-22-2010, 03:39 PM
Member
 
weeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Jeff, does the Orbit Shifter work on 220-240v or is it US 110v only?
weeman is offline  
Old 06-22-2010, 03:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
bodhisafa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 39046
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
The problems Jeff is having with the passive radiator of the captivators is forcing me to re-think my sub selection I made months ago.

Iam thinking one of these to replace two caps

Any thoughts?
bodhisafa is offline  
Old 06-22-2010, 04:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff Permanian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 915
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by weeman View Post

Jeff, does the Orbit Shifter work on 220-240v or is it US 110v only?

Just US 110v for now.
Jeff Permanian is offline  
Old 06-22-2010, 08:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gpmbc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,959
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 310 Post(s)
Liked: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

The problems Jeff is having with the passive radiator of the captivators is forcing me to re-think my sub selection I made months ago.

Iam thinking one of these to replace two caps

Any thoughts?

Kinda tough 2) Caps might provide you with better response due to additional placement options. In terms of output the 2) caps should be able to hang down below 25-30hz then the Orbit Shifter will run away. The Caps are smaller and probably easier to conceal, the OS is anything but. The OS has an amp built in the Caps do not. In regards to sound quality, RMK has had both and does not seem to regret his current decision.
gpmbc is offline  
Old 06-22-2010, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Kinda tough 2) Caps might provide you with better response due to additional placement options. In terms of output the 2) caps should be able to hang down below 25-30hz then the Orbit Shifter will run away. The Caps are smaller and probably easier to conceal, the OS is anything but. The OS has an amp built in the Caps do not. In regards to sound quality, RMK has had both and does not seem to regret his current decision.

With subs a pair will generally beat one of a kind. Given the choice (2 Caps vs 1 OS), I would probably go with the Caps. Dual OS's are dope. (I think that means very good ).

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-23-2010, 12:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fight4yu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 43
what problem is Jeff having with the cap?
fight4yu is offline  
Old 06-23-2010, 02:45 AM
Senior Member
 
crabra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 429
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

Just US 110v for now.

Hopefully not forever.
I think I read that a 240v option will be added later.
crabra is offline  
Old 06-23-2010, 08:01 AM
Senior Member
 
misterkit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
So when do we think the website will get updated with some info about this??
misterkit is offline  
Old 06-24-2010, 03:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff Permanian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 915
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Please check the JTR forum for the most up to date info.
Jeff Permanian is offline  
Old 06-25-2010, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 7,593
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1374 Post(s)
Liked: 1185
OK Jeff P. is officially out of his mind with the pre-order price for the OS's he posted yesterday on his Forum site. OTOH, he is probably hoping to generate some sales in a bad economy. As the only owner of this sub I feel obligated to provide an opinion. Over the years I have owned and heard some fantastic subwoofers. The Orbit Shifter produces the best sounding most intense bass I have ever heard ... period.

At the current pre-order price it is also the best deal going for this class of product. It would be a shame if a product this good did not get the recognition is deserves.

If you are in the market, can handle the size and pay the toll, this is a no-brainer.

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is offline  
Old 06-30-2010, 08:12 AM
Senior Member
 
misterkit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
So how would this compare to a terraform XL?
misterkit is offline  
Old 06-30-2010, 08:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Duffinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

Please check the JTR forum for the most up to date info.

Is there a photo of the driver posted there?
Duffinator is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Tags
Jtr
taboola here
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off