Official JTR Orbit Shifter Subwoofer Thread - Page 45 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1321 of 1349 Old 01-16-2015, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post
Hello all! I am hoping to get some advice from the orbit shifter experts on this thread. A little background...

I have a dedicated and treated basement home theater that is about 16' wide and 28' deep. It is on a concrete slab with carpet and thick padding. I am currently running dual seaton submersive HP's. They are each on the side walls near the midpoint. The room also is open in the back via doorway to another room that is about 12' by 18'. I am currently considering adding 2 more submersives or upgrading to the larger xl 18" variety if and when they are released. From everything I have been reading I may never get the ulf satisfaction below 20hz that I am after being on concrete.

With that being said I am considering upgrading to dual orbit shifters. I have a message into Jeff but I thought I would post a few questions here.

I would probably put them at the same sidewall positions. I would put my surrounds (definitive bpvx for any familiar) on top of the Orbit Shifters. Do the OS shake at all or should this be OK?

I am also wondering if I could lay the LFUs on their side with the port facing up. It appears jeff would have to move the amp location for this. Since the port would be facing up, could it be covered with a fabric grill to keep cats and dust out? Can you think of any negatives to doing this with the orbit shifter lfu or would I be forced to go with the lf version?

They would be near field for a couple of the seats (i have 2 rows for total of 5 seats). I can not tell where my submersives are by sound and am a bit worried about this phenomenon with OS.

If you had a choice, would you go with 2 (one on each sidewall) or one corner loaded in back of theater? These are literally the only locations it would fit. (I do have a harry potter closet under the stairs in back of theater that one would fit in- I could take door off of it but would it cause resonance or other unwanted issues with it in there?)

I believe that's it. Thanks for any and all advice!
Well, 2 OS's and 2 Sub HP's will certianly rock your world. .

I had my main speakers on top of my OS pair for a couple of years. I used Auralex Gramma pads to isolate the Speakers from the OS's. What speakers are you using for side surrounds?

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post #1322 of 1349 Old 01-16-2015, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
I wouldn't be worried about placing small speakers on the OS if I had something like rubber or foam between them. I have run mine to their limit standing upright on carpet and they don't vibrate enough for them to move. As far as localization the three biggest factors will be crossover freq/slope, time alignment, and spl diff between the subs and the mains. If your OS's are on the sides closer to the MLP and playing much louder (especially near the XO freq compared to the mains you may notice them a bit.
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No matter how loud I got my shifters going they have never moved. I would suggest facing the mouth downwards instead of up, just like how the person in the exodus anarchy thread turned his into end tables.
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Well, 2 OS's and 2 Sub HP's will certianly rock your world. .

I had my main speakers on top of my OS pair for a couple of years. I used Auralex Gramma pads to isolate the Speakers from the OS's. What speakers are you using for side surrounds?
Thanks for your input RMK. I have watched your posts and the evolution of your setup over the years and certainly aspired to put together something similar. It's been a long road with lots of upgrades, but the process is what makes it fun.

I have a Definitive speaker setup. The side surrounds are BPVX's. I have four BP7000's for L/R, and surround backs. I would be selling the 2 HP's and replacing with the orbit shifters. Good suggestion on the Gramma...I will check into that. Jeff sent me an email back today answering every one of my questions (it was a long email). Pretty impressive.
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post #1323 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 12:39 AM
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Well, I think I am going to upgrade my subs. But before I do, I need to sell my pair of Seaton Submersive HP's. Here is a link if anyone is interested. Thanks for the prior advice. I am seriously considering replacing them with a pair of orbit shifter LFU's.

Dual Seaton Submersive HP Subwoofers

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post #1324 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 01:51 AM
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That makes sense.

But other than that difference, I don't see how my OS can literally jump like that, and literally moves about a foot forward and then a couple foot back on that EOT track if none of the US versions are doing it.

Another possibility is maybe Jeff forgot to set the 'limits' on my OS.... According to him, the OS has 'limits' built into it (not sure what he means, probably DSP limits or something). For instance if he set the OS to clip about 3 dB before clipping on the 4000 watt amp, and mine doesn't have the limit, it's potentially possible to hit another 5-6dB on mine.

You should post up a video of them moving a foot at a time. That would be a popular vid indeed.
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post #1325 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 01:58 AM
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a capable sealed system "upgrade" to os's.
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post #1326 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 02:03 AM
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You should post up a video of them moving a foot at a time. That would be a popular vid indeed.
After that incident, i turned my OS way down. I can't afford another one if i broke this one and then I am going to be slapping myself silly.

And whenever I play that EOT clip, i make sure to turn it way down further....

I contacted Jeff, and he confirms that giving the OS (or any sub for that matter) a sine wave of 10hz at above reference could damage it, even with protections built in. The OS doesn't have a HPF, so, yes, with the amp capable of delivering 12,000 watts short periods of time, a 10hz sine wave will make it, a whole 200 lbs, jump around... (this is actually a testament to the power of the Speakerpower Amps and the Orbit Shifter)
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post #1327 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 07:38 AM
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Cool

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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a capable sealed system "upgrade" to os's.
Do you think I am making a mistake if I should decide to replace the Submersives with orbit shifter lfu's?

Mark Seaton makes awesome subs and my Submersives are truly awesome. I guess "upgrade" was maybe the wrong word . The orbit shifters were on my shopping list when I first got my submersives and I have always wondered that maybe I am missing something. Most on this thread have said that the OS cures this upgraditis disease that I may have. My basement is 6000 cubic feet when you consider my theater is open in the back via a doorway to another room. And I am on concrete floor which I believe is limiting the tactile feel I am looking for in the ULF without having to buy shakers. Wondering how many sealed subs it would take me to get to where I want to go. I may just also go subless while I decide and see if the Submersive XL 18" materializes soon. I bought the Submersives site and sound unseen based upon what I learned on AVS and I have been very, very pleased. Mark Seaton's reputation is well deserved! I think it might be time to just try something new. And again, based upon what I have been reading (site and sound unseen), I think a pair of the orbit shifter lfu's will put my upgraditis in remission for awhile.

Dual Seaton Submersive HP Subwoofers


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post #1328 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a capable sealed system "upgrade" to os's.
Actually forum member lukeamdman visited my HT a couple of years ago and he converted some of his sealed 18" subs (UXL 5400 drivers?) to a OS like GJALLARGORN build. He was surprised (shocked might be a better term) by the clean powerful output of the OS subs. The OS is at the top of the commercial sub food chain and for the money, nothing currently compares.
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post #1329 of 1349 Old 01-17-2015, 10:11 PM
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^that's funny, he was at my house today and we talked about how we like horn subs the best. This was right after we hit 135+dB at the listening positions! He know a lot about different sub designs.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
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post #1330 of 1349 Old 01-18-2015, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Actually forum member lukeamdman visited my HT a couple of years ago and he converted some of his sealed 18" subs (UXL 5400 drivers?) to a OS like GJALLARGORN build. He was surprised (shocked might be a better term) by the clean powerful output of the OS subs. The OS is at the top of the commercial sub food chain and for the money, nothing currently compares.
Yep. From quad sealed 5400s to (2) 17hz tapped horns each loaded with a 5400.


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^that's funny, he was at my house today and we talked about how we like horn subs the best. This was right after we hit 135+dB at the listening positions! He know a lot about different sub designs.
That was a ton of fun. Thanks for being such a great host!

It's always nice to have that much output on tap, and on top of that you're obviously not afraid of the clip lights 3 orbit shifters at the limit is quite the experience! We hit just over 135db several times, with constant 133-134db being the norm for most of the clips...pretty crazy stuff!

The 212HTs on a real and authentic Lab Gruppen FP10Q was just icing on the cake. Did you say we hit the -4db lights or did we actually clip the amp on the Cream demo? Whatever it was it sounded effortless with never even the slightest hint of distress or distortion. Incredible.
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post #1331 of 1349 Old 01-19-2015, 12:52 AM
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Official JTR Orbit Shifter Subwoofer Thread

I stand corrected then I knew what Luke had as far as the double horns. I just didn't know what he had before.
@yosh7 , in my situation, living room on a concrete slab, I doubt I would have ever gotten the ULF to the same point that the dedicated room guys have. Knowing that makes it much easier for me to decide which orientation I wanted to go with.

As others have mentioned before, this OS is such a clean sound and I know the word gets thrown around, but it really is effortless when it plays. I'm more afraid of my house falling apart than my sub blowing up.
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post #1332 of 1349 Old 01-19-2015, 07:01 AM
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I stand corrected then I knew what Luke had as far as the double horns. I just didn't know what he had before.
@yosh7 , in my situation, living room on a concrete slab, I doubt I would have ever gotten the ULF to the same point that the dedicated room guys have. Knowing that makes it much easier for me to decide which orientation I wanted to go with.

As others have mentioned before, this OS is such a clean sound and I know the word gets thrown around, but it really is effortless when it plays. I'm more afraid of my house falling apart than my sub blowing up.
My thoughts exactly! Limitless power!

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post #1333 of 1349 Old 01-19-2015, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Yep. From quad sealed 5400s to (2) 17hz tapped horns each loaded with a 5400.




That was a ton of fun. Thanks for being such a great host!

It's always nice to have that much output on tap, and on top of that you're obviously not afraid of the clip lights 3 orbit shifters at the limit is quite the experience! We hit just over 135db several times, with constant 133-134db being the norm for most of the clips...pretty crazy stuff!

The 212HTs on a real and authentic Lab Gruppen FP10Q was just icing on the cake. Did you say we hit the -4db lights or did we actually clip the amp on the Cream demo? Whatever it was it sounded effortless with never even the slightest hint of distress or distortion. Incredible.
It was great having you and Alex over. Yes I did see the LG flicker the VPL light slightly once during that Cream demo (+18dBFR). The VPL is a voltage protection limiter on the and I have it set on the highest value. It is one of the things I like about the LG. Jeff said it does a good job of protecting the speaker.

Many told me you could never use that much power on the 212's for 80hz and up, well I guess we proved that wrong. I didn't think it sounded stained at all either and that recording is phenomenal.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #1334 of 1349 Old 01-20-2015, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Actually forum member lukeamdman visited my HT a couple of years ago and he converted some of his sealed 18" subs (UXL 5400 drivers?) to a OS like GJALLARGORN build. He was surprised (shocked might be a better term) by the clean powerful output of the OS subs. The OS is at the top of the commercial sub food chain and for the money, nothing currently compares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Yep. From quad sealed 5400s to (2) 17hz tapped horns each loaded with a 5400.




That was a ton of fun. Thanks for being such a great host!

It's always nice to have that much output on tap, and on top of that you're obviously not afraid of the clip lights 3 orbit shifters at the limit is quite the experience! We hit just over 135db several times, with constant 133-134db being the norm for most of the clips...pretty crazy stuff!

The 212HTs on a real and authentic Lab Gruppen FP10Q was just icing on the cake. Did you say we hit the -4db lights or did we actually clip the amp on the Cream demo? Whatever it was it sounded effortless with never even the slightest hint of distress or distortion. Incredible.
You guys makes me want to get another OS...
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post #1335 of 1349 Old 01-20-2015, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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It was great having you and Alex over. Yes I did see the LG flicker the VPL light slightly once during that Cream demo (+18dBFR). The VPL is a voltage protection limiter on the and I have it set on the highest value. It is one of the things I like about the LG. Jeff said it does a good job of protecting the speaker.

Many told me you could never use that much power on the 212's for 80hz and up, well I guess we proved that wrong. I didn't think it sounded stained at all either and that recording is phenomenal.
Plus 18 ... That is definitely a level that makes Jeff P proud.

BTW, the LG FP10000Q is a purchase I have never regretted and with LCR 215's, I need it.

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post #1336 of 1349 Old 01-20-2015, 05:44 PM
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Plus 18 ... That is definitely a level that makes Jeff P proud.

BTW, the LG FP10000Q is a purchase I have never regretted and with LCR 215's, I need it.
The Sunfire could not get to that level cleanly. I think I gained about 5-6dB with the LG. With the 215's it even more critical with those bass drivers.

Funny thing about all this high SPL is when we had a party the other night everyone wanted it very loud like +10 to +13. Its not just for bass head anymore!

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
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post #1337 of 1349 Old 01-24-2015, 05:50 PM
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Hello all, I sold a Submersive HP to try the OS of which I have owned for about 11mos now. I am curious, I have read in one of the former GTG's that when most people had left during one of them that they had REALLY cranked up the OS and at that level it apparently blew all of the other subs away and was quite awesome. Was this simply a case of turning the volume level up quite a bit and running the OS REALLY hot? I do enjoy the additional output of the OS but I wasn't necessarily unhappy with a single submersive and another submersive probably would have done the trick, i just wanted to try the OS. i have had the OS up there a couple times in the last few months but probably never really pushed it like at that GTG or some other OS owners do but may give it a shot to experience that level of bass so that's why the curiosity of it was just as simple as turning the volume level up on the OS as I mentioned. Any input would be great thanks!
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post #1338 of 1349 Old 01-24-2015, 08:19 PM
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Hello all, I sold a Submersive HP to try the OS of which I have owned for about 11mos now. I am curious, I have read in one of the former GTG's that when most people had left during one of them that they had REALLY cranked up the OS and at that level it apparently blew all of the other subs away and was quite awesome. Was this simply a case of turning the volume level up quite a bit and running the OS REALLY hot? I do enjoy the additional output of the OS but I wasn't necessarily unhappy with a single submersive and another submersive probably would have done the trick, i just wanted to try the OS. i have had the OS up there a couple times in the last few months but probably never really pushed it like at that GTG or some other OS owners do but may give it a shot to experience that level of bass so that's why the curiosity of it was just as simple as turning the volume level up on the OS as I mentioned. Any input would be great thanks!
What are your thoughts on the overall sound of the OS vs your Submersive? Do you notice a big difference?

I currently have two Submersive HP's for sale to potentially do what you have done----try the OS. From what I have researched 1 OS = 2 Cap S2 above 20 HZ. 1 Cap S2 = around 2 Submersive HP's? Therefore one orbit shifter should = 4 SubM HP's (above 20 HZ). Maybe others can chime in on this? I apologize if my math is wrong as I DO NOT own the OS, I have just been doing lots of reading through these threads. With that being said, I would get something to measure the output so that you can see what your OS is doing when you push it and then have fun with that beast! From what I have been reading, it should be very difficult to push it to its limits without damaging your ears or your room. There are lots of OS and JTR experts on this thread that can answer much better than I can.

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post #1339 of 1349 Old 01-24-2015, 10:16 PM
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What are your thoughts on the overall sound of the OS vs your Submersive? Do you notice a big difference?

I currently have two Submersive HP's for sale to potentially do what you have done----try the OS. From what I have researched 1 OS = 2 Cap S2 above 20 HZ. 1 Cap S2 = around 2 Submersive HP's? Therefore one orbit shifter should = 4 SubM HP's (above 20 HZ). Maybe others can chime in on this? I apologize if my math is wrong as I DO NOT own the OS, I have just been doing lots of reading through these threads. With that being said, I would get something to measure the output so that you can see what your OS is doing when you push it and then have fun with that beast! From what I have been reading, it should be very difficult to push it to its limits without damaging your ears or your room. There are lots of OS and JTR experts on this thread that can answer much better than I can.
I do enjoy the extra output of the OS but IMHO I enjoyed the overall sound quality of the Submersive a little more. It may be also that I enjoy the sound of a sealed sub over a horn or ported (used to own dual SVS PB13ultras before the Submersive HP). If I had to trade off I think i would fore-go the additional output for the better sound that I like. For me, realistically, the additional Submersive probably would have done the trick. I am thinking about trying the new upcoming SubMersive XL with the dual 18's and 6Kw amp! That would be KILLER and then if there was a slave offered down the road when I could afford it may just do the trick! Who knows though whenever that will come out, i may run out of patience for that, I keep checking that forum for some sort of date but it never comes. I am on a list to receive an email whenever it's ready so hopefully it will be this year. I think i saw mark say somewhere that it's going to be some wheres towards the $4k mark.
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post #1340 of 1349 Old 01-27-2015, 01:47 PM
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Rookie question from a long time JTR owner. I have dual JTR S2 subs that meet all my needs but there is always that little doubt in the back of mind of whether dual OS would be beneficial to me and the volumes I use.

So here is my real question, when does the output and headroom of the dual OS come into play. For example, I typically listen to movies at -10 (below reference). At that type of volume would dual S2 subs and dual OS really play with the same impact? When does the benefit of dual OS kick in......all the time...at -10...-5....reference....above reference? I have gone to reference maybe twice in the last two years to see what what my current system can do but I am not one of those guys that listens crazy loud on a regular basis...I know plenty of folks on the JTR thread do that. I have never taken my system above reference.

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post #1341 of 1349 Old 01-27-2015, 03:21 PM
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You pretty much answered your own question by admitting you listen at -10 below reference and that dual S2's are meeting your needs. Dual S2's should easily do reference levels and a single OS can easily go way beyond that thanks to it's higher efficiency but unless you plan on routinely visiting those stratospheric listening levels for extended periods of time, why bother wondering what if? Benefits of an OS vs a S2 won't really kick in until over reference. On the other hand IF you like to play music and movies for extended periods at live/club levels then I think you might benefit from some OS's. FWIW I have 4 S2's and also listen to movies around -10 and had this same thought cross my mind.
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post #1342 of 1349 Old 01-27-2015, 10:28 PM
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All I can say for the OS vs the S2 is that at reference with my dual s2s, even with the subs run a little hot they look like they are just cruising along. I mean honestly looks like I am not even pushing them. Super clean and powerful. My vtf15 at refernce struggled with heavy material and these just coast along.

I have a sweet house curve all the way to 8-9 db using REW without audessey engaged. With audessey it is 6-7hz. I couldn't ask for anymore really. I haven't even approached rhere limits. There limits from my findings is they should produce atleast 130db. I think I am quite alright at those levels. But being the nature of the beast I plan on adding atleast two more when I get my next house and have a dedicated HT. I gain 6 solid db at all frequencies basically turning on the other sub. So 12 more if it still works like that adding more than two and I am golden!

I to wanted OS's, but could not fit them in my living room. Jeff recommended the s2s which I had been also eyeing and they were the best thing I have done to my theatre. They are absolutely the perfect size for my setup. The OS wwould have stuck out way to much.
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post #1343 of 1349 Old 01-28-2015, 01:47 AM
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The os would have lower distortion when playing at the same loudness.
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post #1344 of 1349 Old 01-28-2015, 02:08 AM
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My whole Jtr setup exceeds my expectations. With movies, I can go up to -8 for a whole movie. But that's very occasionally and during daytime. -12 is my norm with subs 6 dbs hot. Hmm, but sometimes I wonder.. If it's all a placebo effect. And that my old Def Tech setup sounded just as good?
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post #1345 of 1349 Old 01-28-2015, 05:48 AM
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Thank you for all the feedback guys and confirms my suspicions. When I bought the dual S2, I had no room for dual OS because I had a regular screen. Now that I have an AT screen I would in theory have room for dual OS behind the screen but at my listening levels, doesn't sound like switching out would do be any good. Like I said, I am honestly 100% happy with my dual S2 subs but as any good crazed AVS member, the "what if" questions pop into my head
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post #1346 of 1349 Old 01-28-2015, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
All I can say for the OS vs the S2 is that at reference with my dual s2s, even with the subs run a little hot they look like they are just cruising along. I mean honestly looks like I am not even pushing them. Super clean and powerful. My vtf15 at refernce struggled with heavy material and these just coast along.

I have a sweet house curve all the way to 8-9 db using REW without audessey engaged. With audessey it is 6-7hz. I couldn't ask for anymore really. I haven't even approached rhere limits. There limits from my findings is they should produce atleast 130db. I think I am quite alright at those levels. But being the nature of the beast I plan on adding atleast two more when I get my next house and have a dedicated HT. I gain 6 solid db at all frequencies basically turning on the other sub. So 12 more if it still works like that adding more than two and I am golden!

I to wanted OS's, but could not fit them in my living room. Jeff recommended the s2s which I had been also eyeing and they were the best thing I have done to my theatre. They are absolutely the perfect size for my setup. The OS wwould have stuck out way to much.
A doubling of both subs and power is a 6db gain. Going from one S2 to two is 6db. Going from two S2s to four is another 6db.
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post #1347 of 1349 Old 01-28-2015, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
A doubling of both subs and power is a 6db gain. Going from one S2 to two is 6db. Going from two S2s to four is another 6db.
Yeah, wasnt sure how that stacked up when adding more than two. I'll take 6 and some added smoothing

Does anyone know if the Program buttons do anything for the JTR subs? I know the Submersives have two programs. Would think with the option Jeff may have put two different DSPs on the amp.
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post #1348 of 1349 Old 01-28-2015, 06:49 PM
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For people that don't listen at reference levels: Are you using dynamic eq? If not, is that why you guys run the bass so hot? I tried a rising slope from 100hz-20hz where I would end up at +10db at 20hz and it was so much bass at -15 on the dial that I can't imagine people with +20db!
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post #1349 of 1349 Unread Today, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
For people that don't listen at reference levels: Are you using dynamic eq? If not, is that why you guys run the bass so hot? I tried a rising slope from 100hz-20hz where I would end up at +10db at 20hz and it was so much bass at -15 on the dial that I can't imagine people with +20db!
Question to those of you that have two orbit shifters....where have you found ideal placement of the two? Both up front? One in front and one in back? Planning cable runs and wondering if I shouldn't run a sub line to the back of the room just in case. I think I will have room. Thanks for your input.
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