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post #91 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

How does having equipment that works properly take away infrasonic bass?

Infrasonic bass is completely irrelevent to a reviewer with an 8" sub whether his equipment is working properly or not.
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post #92 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Infrasonic bass is completely irrelevent to a reviewer with an 8" sub whether his equipment is working properly or not.

But if we are talking about Ralph Potts he has a PB13.
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post #93 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

I must have missed the measurements in that "review". Can you point them out please?


Oh, and I'm sure the reviewer's EIGHT INCH CSW Basscube 8 sub really plumbs the depths of this movie... considering current version of that sub is rated down to a whopping 39hz.

I'm honestly at a loss that someone who reviews Blus for a living uses a 50 watt 8" subwoofer.

It's own ad copy even calls it wimpy! " In a larger room or with a fairly powerful system, one of our larger powered subwoofers would be a better choice."

Unbelievable.
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post #94 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 08:07 AM
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The reviewer is Joshua Zyber. He claims "the Blu-ray's lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track likewise brings the house down" even though he's only using a crappy 8" sub. (LOL)

What exactly is his house made of?
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post #95 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 08:08 AM
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Our heads are not in the sand...but I think it look more than 1 blu ray with this problem for us to wake up and start making noise!

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post #96 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The reviewer is Joshua Zyber. He claims "the Blu-ray's lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track likewise brings the house down" even though he's only using a crappy 8" sub. (LOL)

What exactly is his house made of?

Cards maybe?
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post #97 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

Cards maybe?

Haha! I don't respect Josh Zyber's reviews as much as Ralph's.

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post #98 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

What exactly is his house made of?

Playing cards apparently.

Edit: I see I was too slow and b10.
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post #99 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

He also posted the DVD's DTS track and the BD's English DTS core, and the French DD also from the BD. Using optical as opposed to HDMI. He also measured them at the LP, so it wasn't a direct from the sound card, like most RTAs being created directly from the disc, but rather as an acoustic grab. They all show a different results, not just bass amplitude and extension, but content wise as well.

I did not graph the BD DTS core of M&C via optical. I graphed the BD DTS-MA version, the DD-5.1 French version and the DVD DTS 5.1 version.

Not sure why it's being mentioned here, but to clarify; I don't go through the hassle of making a direct electronic spectrogram because when I was suffering the learning curve of SL I compared the electronic graphs to the mic'd graphs and found no difference, save for small discrepancies found in the in-room frequency response.

My in-room response:

Comparing mic'd/electronic graphs:



My system at the mic is good to 4Hz, below which it falls off rapidly. It has enough fidelity to bypass the hassle of setup and calibration to make electronic SL graphs.

Also, I don't use a sound card. I use an outboard Edirol UA1000 interface that's connected via USB and measured flat to below 4Hz.

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post #100 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 09:40 AM
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Another clarification; The BR of M&C is filtered higher than 25Hz. It looks to be higher than 30Hz, actually:



What prompted me to graph the soundtrack was the first battle scene. I immediately scrambled for the remote and cycled through the setup menu, etc., looking for some setting to change, disable, whatever.

I did so because I heard the difference in sound instantly, and I hadn't watched M&C on DVD for 6 weeks or so before I purchased the BR and popped it in. The sound is that different.

I see no reason to examine the DTS core because that's not what I made the BR version purchase for, making the DTS core irrelevant to me.

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post #101 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I also wonder why the AVS forum members have been oblivious the the Master and Commander Blue Ray audio issue for the past few years. Master and Cfommander is still in the top tier list, and this is the third update to the list!

Do the vast majority of AVS members have their heads burried in the sand?


AVS Forum Blue Ray Audio Tier version 3 here

Yes. And, apparently, you're among them.

It seems as though both you and thehun, for some reason, are taking up the apologist's cross and attempting to make it look like the concerns voiced in this thread are unfounded or overblown or some such rot.

For myself, there is no doubt that the titles mentioned are remixed versions for BR. There is also no doubt that they are changes for the worse, which makes the difference for me between buying the BR or not buying the BR.

I wish someone had forewarned my about M&C and saved me the hassle of purchase, listen, compare and return for refund.

For those of you whose system rolls of at 25Hz, just go find a thread of people with like systems who don't care what's on the soundtrack and leave us goof balls to our errant pursuits, eh?

Bosso
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post #102 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I also wonder why the AVS forum members have been oblivious the the Master and Commander Blue Ray audio issue for the past few years. Master and Cfommander is still in the top tier list, and this is the third update to the list!

Do the vast majority of AVS members have their heads burried in the sand?


AVS Forum Blue Ray Audio Tier version 3 here

For me personally, I had never seen M&C and I bought the blu-ray after reading the recommendation thread, and I was never quite able to understand why it was held in the same regard as Cloverfield and WotW. After reading about Bosso's finding I rented a dvd copy of M&C from netflix about two weeks ago and I totally agree with Bosso that the difference is tremendous. Easily heard and very easily felt.
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post #103 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 10:18 AM
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bosso could you at least test the DTS core? It is still 1.5mb/s so it is still better than DD or DTS.
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post #104 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 10:27 AM
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Another film that fits into the crap catagory on BR is Leon. The audio mix in dvd is chalk and cheese compared to the BR. We did a side by side ear test and the difference was startling. Yes picture quality was much better and the sound clearer but even gun shots didn't even had the raw impact. I thought avatar was ok aswell as the new moon BR. I think sometimes sound with frequencies above 20hz is just as exciting as sub 20hz stuff.

I dont have many BR's as I source my High Def films electronically but after reading this I dont feel very confident n shelling out a load of cash on BR's which have the LFE filtered out.

cheers graham
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post #105 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

For me personally, I had never seen M&C and I bought the blu-ray after reading the recommendation thread, and I was never quite able to understand why it was held in the same regard as Cloverfield and WotW.

Same here. Completely underwhelmed.

Quote:
After reading about Bosso's finding I rented a dvd copy of M&C from netflix about two weeks ago and I totally agree with Bosso that the difference is tremendous. Easily heard and very easily felt.

This is what I'll be doing next.
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post #106 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Yes. And, apparently, you're among them.

It seems as though both you and thehun, for some reason, are taking up the apologist's cross and attempting to make it look like the concerns voiced in this thread are unfounded or overblown or some such rot.

For myself, there is no doubt that the titles mentioned are remixed versions for BR. There is also no doubt that they are changes for the worse, which makes the difference for me between buying the BR or not buying the BR.

I wish someone had forewarned my about M&C and saved me the hassle of purchase, listen, compare and return for refund.

For those of you whose system rolls of at 25Hz, just go find a thread of people with like systems who don't care what's on the soundtrack and leave us goof balls to our errant pursuits, eh?

Bosso



Your just being a jerk there Bosso. How about doing some proper analysis instead of making claims about HP filters and remixes? The M&C DVD plays fine on my system reagrdless of your crying. I don't have Blueray, so I can't do a waterfall that will clearly show where the problem is on the current Blue Ray discs.

Your M&C waterfall is composed of what? LFE alone? LFE plus redirected bass? RB alone? Optical input? HDMI input? What does your waterfall represent?

For that matter, are all M&C discs the same or is it a recent batch? Evidence has been presented here that region 2 discs do not have this problem.

Region 2 M&C sample here



Here is a waterfall of the DVD DD version of M & C opening salvo scene. LFE "filtering" and "levels" are easy to pickout with this method. LFE is composed of high level bass in the 20 to 50 Hz area plus some infrasonics.


Top waterfall is RB alone (AKA "looks like" a 30 Hz HP was applied to all main channels).

Middle waterfall is LFE plus RB.

Lower waterfall is LFE alone.







Your waterfall looks like the LFE is missing rather than being HP filtered or a "remix". How about doing the Blueray waterfalls in a similar manner to the way that I did so you can figure out what is going on with the LFE signal rather than LFE plus RB signal?
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post #107 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 12:16 PM
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J_Palmer_Cass -- Cool it on name calling! Bosso stated that the DVD of M&C was fine (which you just verified). It was the BD version he said was crippled. You just said that you don't have the BD version and, therefore, didn't test it.

BTW, I agree that it would be better if Bosso would identify what channels he was performing his waterfall test on. I totally agree that the RB might well be filtered at some low frequency (25 or 30 HZ), and that would be reasonable, from the mastering point of view (IMHO). It's the LFE audio channel that we should be worried about (if the BD was mastered with a separate LFE channel).

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post #108 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 12:22 PM
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J...you just proved that the DD DVD was fine. Test the DTS on the DVD for us using your method.

Then, Go buy the BLURAY and do the DTS-MA and compare that to your DVD.

I am 1000% sure there is SOMETHING wrong with the DTS-MA recording. It lacks all of the LFE from about 28hz DOWN that the DVD had. That is a fact that cannot be disputed.

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post #109 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Your just being a jerk there Bosso. How about doing some proper analysis instead of making claims about HP filters and remixes? The M&C DVD plays fine on my system reagrdless of your crying. I don't have Blueray, so I can't do a waterfall that will clearly show where the problem is on the current Blue Ray discs.

Your M&C waterfall is composed of what? LFE alone? LFE plus redirected bass? RB alone? Optical input? HDMI input? What does your waterfall represent?

For that matter, are all M&C discs the same or is it a recent batch? Evidence has been presented here that region 2 discs do not have this problem.

Region 2 M&C sample here



Here is a waterfall of the DVD DD version of M & C opening salvo scene. LFE "filtering" and "levels" are easy to pickout with this method. LFE is composed of high level bass in the 20 to 50 Hz area plus some infrasonics.


Top waterfall is RB alone (AKA "looks like" a 30 Hz HP was applied to all main channels).

Middle waterfall is LFE plus RB.

Lower waterfall is LFE alone.







Your waterfall looks like the LFE is missing rather than being HP filtered or a "remix". How about doing the Blueray waterfalls in a similar manner to the way that I did so you can figure out what is going on with the LFE signal rather than LFE plus RB signal?

Because it's an irrelevant waste of my time, that's why.

Instead, why don't you just look at the evidence you posted yourself? All you're showing is that the LFE of the specific scene you graphed is contained in the LFE track and not the front channels.

From 30Hz to 15Hz, your graph is down -24dB.

Bosso
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post #110 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 12:46 PM
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Boys...remember....This thread is about the BLURAY versions.

Clearly we know what was on the DVD's. We are now concerned about moving forward with the technology and the lack of sub 25hz content on bluray discs.

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post #111 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

J_Palmer_Cass -- Cool it on name calling! Bosso stated that the DVD of M&C was fine (which you just verified). It was the BD version he said was crippled. You just said that you don't have the BD version and, therefore, didn't test it.

BTW, I agree that it would be better if Bosso would identify what channels he was performing his waterfall test on. I totally agree that the RB might well be filtered at some low frequency (25 or 30 HZ), and that would be reasonable, from the mastering point of view (IMHO). It's the LFE audio channel that we should be worried about (if the BD was mastered with a separate LFE channel).

JPC just likes to stalk me.

The LFE channel is not missing from the BR or any other version, nor is it missing from the graphs I posted. It's a nonsense argument. The LFE track is there, just filtered compared to the original HV release in DTS on DVD.

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post #112 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Boys...remember....This thread is about the BLURAY versions.

Clearly we know what was on the DVD's. We are now concerned about moving forward with the technology and the lack of sub 25hz content on bluray discs.

Correct. I just want to know what's on the soundtrack of the BR version of all of my favorite DVDs before I spend the time and $$ to build a BR library.

And, to clarify an important point. A HP filter is not a brick wall. It can eliminate the impact of low frequency content but still show content on the graph, just to a greatly reduced point.

Bosso
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post #113 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 01:16 PM
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Hopefully this isn't a ploy that will help to introduce a new format that will have "a new feature, NOW with deeper bass than before" type statement. I don't want to buy another "type" player.
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post #114 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 01:32 PM
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bossobass -- I just went back to check out the "Master List of DVD, HD-DVD, & Blu-Ray Movies With Bass Thread - With Waterfalls". Looking at the waterfalls for M&C, plenty of LFE is shown.

It sounds like the DVD DTS version (or the HD-DVD, DTS-MA) was tested (even though it states DTS-MA) and it was assumed that the BD version would be the same.

A bad assumption? At least it is, from your test data. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I just won't trust the data in that thread.

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post #115 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ls200p View Post

Hopefully this isn't a ploy that will help to introduce a new format that will have "a new feature, NOW with deeper bass than before" type statement. I don't want to buy another "type" player.

Or subwoofers specifically "enhanced" for new demanding bass on blu ray movies. Haha! We better keep quiet about this or all the "engineers" reading this will pass it along to the ad execs.
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post #116 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Because it's an irrelevant waste of my time, that's why.

Instead, why don't you just look at the evidence you posted yourself? All you're showing is that the LFE of the specific scene you graphed is contained in the LFE track and not the front channels.

From 30Hz to 15Hz, your graph is down -24dB.

Bosso




It would not be a waste of time. You can't even prove that the M&C region 1 Blue Ray disc has any LFE content (filtered or not) on the LFE channel.

All your waterfall shows is that infrasonic LFE does not exist in any of the channels, including the dedicated LFE channel. Your M&C Blue Ray waterfall shows no high level bass in the 20 to 50 Hz area as well as no infrasonics.

It would be nice to see what content resides on the dedicated LFE channel with no RB masking that content. Is the dedicated LFE channel content missing in action. recorded at a real low level or is it HP filtered?

My guess is some unintentional act, so that means no HP filter for the LFE channel as that would be intentional. In addition, the Australian version has the full LFE track on Blue Ray. That pretty much confirms some type of screwup on the dedicated LFE channel.

It you don't want to figure it out, that's cool!
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post #117 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ls200p View Post

Hopefully this isn't a ploy that will help to introduce a new format that will have "a new feature, NOW with deeper bass than before" type statement. I don't want to buy another "type" player.

it's like when they came out with HDTV and pushed LCD down everyone's throats even though the quality sucked

and then they come out with the 240Hz Refresh Rate "NOW WITH LESS BLUR"

i don't see why they can't just leave the sound alone for the DTS-HD Master Audio mix and let the down-mix get the filter

anyone using DTS-HD Master Audio soundtracks probably has a system that can handle the lows and even if they don't, there's probably a HP filter protecting whatever their using

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post #118 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

J...you just proved that the DD DVD was fine. Test the DTS on the DVD for us using your method.

Then, Go buy the BLURAY and do the DTS-MA and compare that to your DVD.

I am 1000% sure there is SOMETHING wrong with the DTS-MA recording. It lacks all of the LFE from about 28hz DOWN that the DVD had. That is a fact that cannot be disputed.



DTS looks the same as DD except for volume levels due to the use of Dialnorm on the DD version. Boost the DD volume by the dialnorm reduction amount, and they produce the same waterfall.

I have no Blue Ray equipment otherwise I would have just run the Blue Ray test.

Just as a note there is more bass missing from Bosso's M&C Blue Ray waterfall than jsut "28 Hz on down". It almost looks like there is no LFE track at all, or the LFE track was recorded at a real low level. Since Bosso refuses to do a proper test and no one else here knows how to use Spectrum Lab, this discussion on ppor bass has no where to go.
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post #119 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

J_Palmer_Cass -- Cool it on name calling! Bosso stated that the DVD of M&C was fine (which you just verified). It was the BD version he said was crippled. You just said that you don't have the BD version and, therefore, didn't test it.

BTW, I agree that it would be better if Bosso would identify what channels he was performing his waterfall test on. I totally agree that the RB might well be filtered at some low frequency (25 or 30 HZ), and that would be reasonable, from the mastering point of view (IMHO). It's the LFE audio channel that we should be worried about (if the BD was mastered with a separate LFE channel).



That's why I asked Bosso to do the LFE test (for the second time).

Bosso said it would be a waste of time to test the LFE channel by itself, so I guess that ends the M&C Blue Ray LFE discussion. Funny thing is, the correct LFE exists on the Region 4 M&C Blue ray disc (waterfall on previous page).
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post #120 of 928 Old 05-05-2010, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Funny thing is, the correct LFE exists on the Region 4 M&C Blue ray disc (waterfall on previous page).

That would be quite an accomplishment considering there is no region 4 for Blu-Ray. There are only 3 regions for Blu-Ray.
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