25 Hz filter on BD DTS tracks? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 928 Old 05-06-2010, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I did not graph the BD DTS core of M&C via optical. I graphed the BD DTS-MA version, the DD-5.1 French version and the DVD DTS 5.1 version.

Really now.....




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post #182 of 928 Old 05-06-2010, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Yes. And, apparently, you're among them.

It seems as though both you and thehun, for some reason, are taking up the apologist's cross and attempting to make it look like the concerns voiced in this thread are unfounded or overblown or some such rot.


Bosso

Apologist to whom? I explained myself in the other thread, I'm nobody's varlet, I think for myself and unlike others I view all evidence before I call a fire. The OP at least had wisdom to include a question mark in the title as it is allege this issue well beyond the M&C BD's track.

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post #183 of 928 Old 05-06-2010, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

The site JPC is probably referring to is here

where they state



So, could someone who has experienced the issue, please set their Blu-ray player to decode instead of bitstream and confirm if the issue is still there.


The issue described on that bulletin is the "DTS Bomb"[ a loud popping noise in all channels] that affects certain Fox/Lionsgate titles all released in the first quarter of 2008. There was a lengthy tread either here or in the amp forum about this. This has nothing to do with the issue of this thread.

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post #184 of 928 Old 05-06-2010, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Here's the 4 graphs. Maybe someone can see something I can't, but it would be great if Aussie (sorry, I forgot the SN) could dupe the settings he used for his DTS graph and run another BR graph of the same scene.


Bosso

I'll see what I can do, the bluray graph was done on a new computer, I lost all my old settings.

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post #185 of 928 Old 05-06-2010, 11:01 PM
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I've been playing around with settings for the last 2 hours and this is as close as I can get to the original graph. The color pallette and amplitude scale are still wrong though.

The graph is LFE only - thats how the origianl graph was done.





Here's Bosso's graphs for easier comparison:



I also tested the spanish DTS track from the Bluray, it is identical to the DTS-MA track.

If someone wants to run a waterfall of the DVD and then either post their settings or upload the inf. file I can then retest the bluray and we should have valid graphs to compare.

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post #186 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 03:20 AM
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Here is a spectrogram of the M&C DVD opening salvo LFE channel content. Solid green line is peak hold 30 second time limit.

The original waterfall and this blowup of the spectrogram shows peaks in the 30 to 60 Hz area, with a roll off starting at 30 Hz. Some may say that a 30 Hz HP filter is being applied to the DVD LFE signal. Funny how the DVD waterfall shows the identical FR roll off, but people tend to say wow look at the infrasonics.

As a response to Penn's earlier wailing, anyone with an 18 Hz capable subwoofer (like my subwoofer(s)) can handle this bandwidth.






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post #187 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFrank View Post

You've identified a symptom of the problem, not what the problem is.



Nope. I'm not asking you or anyone else to do anything. I merely stated that I agreed the only way to truly get to the root of the problem is to look at each channel separately.



The correct analogy would be saying the failed brakes is due to a flaw in the design of the brakes. You would have to convince the designer of the brakes that there is a flaw in his design before he would attempt to do anything. How long was it before Toyota believed anyone about unintended acceleration?



You don't have to agree, but disagreeing doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful.

You are incorrect on multiple fronts.

1.The PROBLEM is that there is no/significantly reduced sub 25hz content on the aforementioned BD's when contrasted with their DVD counterparts. Semantics and the phrasing of the issue do not change that problem.
Stating that we do not know the precise cause of this problem does not invalidate its existence- nor does re-seating the problem in a inapplicable "chicken-egg" scenario...AGAIN the CONSUMERS problem is that his/her brakes stopped working- not that a brake line was severed or that there's a manufacturer design defect with the piston. Very straightforward, really.

2. At least one person insisted Bosso run a LFE channel sweep solo. Electronic evidence of such exists within this thread. Read it.

3. My analogy is valid. Because you formulated another that may or may not be valid, doesn't invalidate my own. Read it.

4. Oh well. A scant few have railed against common sense for far too long within this thread and have made their own beds. Humans have their limitations.


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post #188 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 05:47 AM
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It's interesting that Richard King did the sound design for M&C, The Dark Knight, and WotW. I wonder if he is aware of what's happening here. After reading about all he went through to get realistic cannon sounds, I bet he would be pissed they were being neutered like this. Listen to interview here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=1505241

I tried to find some contact info for Mr. King, but no luck.
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post #189 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 05:51 AM
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To save me some time , has anybody verified that the TRU HD tracks on these disks behave the same way?

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post #190 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Like everyone else here, I will post only what I want to post. If you don't like it, then too bad. I don't even own the Blue Ray in question.

You are still all on your own. You have enough information to figure out how and where to get all the information that you need.

As previously posted on this thread by another poster (M&C waterfall), there is no problem with the Master & Commander Region B/2 Blue Ray disc.

According to Fox, there is a known hardware issue for Master and Commander Blue Ray DTS-MA audio.

Is that the only issue with Master and Commander Blue Ray?



Grow up and help the cause 100%. Otherwise just leave this thread and everyone on it alone. You don't even have the Blu-Ray, you cannot hear or graph the DTS-MA.

So why are you in this thread talking about DTS-MA!!!!

Again..I suggest you grow up and act like an adult because right now you are acting like the 3rd graders that I teach daily! I pride my classroom on being a team and helping each other. When someone knows something we share it. They don't keep it to themselves.

Now again I ask...PLEASE bless us with your information from Fox.

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post #191 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:28 AM
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Really I think this argument about how much info is enough info is all about indidivual apporaches to things in general or this issue in particular and the statments people are making about whether the absence of vbass is all you need ot know or whether you need to know with split-hair exactitude the precise reason that the bass is missing really points out that it's a personal thing.

For person X knowing that the bass is missing is all they care about.

For person Y, knowing that the bass is missing is just the beginning of what might be a fun (for them if they care to do it) investigation to attempt to determine the exact cause.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with either position. And we've already seen that nobody's going to convince somebody from the "other camp" that their approach is best.

Step back, let others dig in at the level of detail they find interesting/important/desirable for the particular issue.

How much information is enough for you is a personal issue for you and it does not diminish you if others hold a different view or make you better if you keep trying to make others hold your view.

And for the record, for me, knowing there's a problem is technically enough but the way I'm wired I'm interested in sorting and/or watching others sort (since I lack the equip) out what the underlying cause might be . . . .

Clearly whatever's wrong, it is for the producer/marketer of the BD to fix ...
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post #192 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:31 AM
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Quote:


clearly whatever's wrong, it is for the producer/marketer of the bd to fix ...


+1000!!

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post #193 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

Grow up and help the cause 100%. Otherwise just leave this thread and everyone on it alone. You don't even have the Blu-Ray, you cannot hear or graph the DTS-MA.

So why are you in this thread talking about DTS-MA!!!!

Again..I suggest you grow up and act like an adult because right now you are acting like the 3rd graders that I teach daily! I pride my classroom on being a team and helping each other. When someone knows something we share it. They don't keep it to themselves.

Now again I ask...PLEASE bless us with your information from Fox.




All requests are denied!
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post #194 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post


How much information is enough for you is a personal issue for you and it does not diminish you if others hold a different view or make you better if you keep trying to make others hold your view.

And for the record, for me, knowing there's a problem is technically enough but the way I'm wired I'm interested in sorting and/or watching others sort (since I lack the equip) out what the underlying cause might be . . . .

Clearly whatever's wrong, it is for the producer/marketer of the BD to fix ...



I agree!
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post #195 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Here is a spectrogram of the M&C DVD opening salvo LFE channel content. Solid green line is peak hold 30 second time limit.

The original waterfall and this blowup of the spectrogram shows peaks in the 30 to 60 Hz area, with a roll off starting at 30 Hz. Some may say that a 30 Hz HP filter is being applied to the DVD LFE signal. Funny how the DVD waterfall shows the identical FR roll off, but people tend to say wow look at the infrasonics.


Now compare it to the other copies...alone that is meaningless, well it does show me there is limited content below 20Hz.

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post #196 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:42 AM
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I don't think any REASONABLE person here doesn't think it's up to each individual to investigate the issue further.

The issue is two-fold:

1. Some have quasi-insisted that there is no problem.

and, further:

2. They insist that those who do maintain there IS a problem need to unearth the EXACT cause or their contention is irrelevant. See: testing the LFE channel alone


Of course both are absurd.

"Clearly whatever's wrong, it is for the producer/marketer of the BD to fix ..."


Exactly what I've been maintaining all along. Express to the studio the difference between the DVD and BD versions and let their experts/expertise correct or choose not to correct the problem.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #197 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 06:54 AM
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But why hold out information from fox? What is your reason and rational for doing so?

We have 2 movies from Fox that are lacking sub 25lfe for whatever reason. If Fox has said something why wouldn't you share?

I am trying to email fox and get answers too, but they have not responded yet. If/when they do respond I'll post the whole thing for everyone to see because I believe in sharing all of the information in this case. We are all in this together, so why not work together in solving the problem We all bring things to the table...why not combine our powers, knowledge and resources to solve this problem together?

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post #198 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:08 AM
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perhaps the audio press should be made aware of what's going on

http://widescreenreview.com/hddisc_d...hp?recid=12177

"At times SPL energy is extremely strong and deep bass extension rumbles below 25 Hz in the .1 LFE channel."

the audio/video press needs to report on this or nothing will happen

All this noise about noise.
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post #199 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:15 AM
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Master & Commander gets a 5+ on sound

http://www.widescreenreview.com/hddi...hp?recid=11255

Sound:

he lossless DTS-HD Master Audio™ 5.1-channel soundtrack is incredibly exciting, with a very engaging mix that will keep viewers on the edge of their seats. Even the quiescent scenes are mixed well, creating an expansive soundscape that defies the physical boundaries of the room. The LFE channel is used very effectively, delivering extremely deep, tight bass that is controlled well. There is an impressive sense of spatial dimensionality, and phantom imaging is superb. Dialogue occasionally sounds tinny, but it only distracts because the rest of the soundtrack is so enjoyable. The noise floor is low and dynamic range is huge, but there are moments when high-pitched ringing is audible. (Danny Richelieu)

All this noise about noise.
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post #200 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:20 AM
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I emailed FOX with this thread link.

Also WOTW is coming out on BR, hope it doesn't have a 25hz filter.
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post #201 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:24 AM
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^ in the interest of full disclosure, I never orginally had M&C on DVD. I first bought it on BD.

And when I first heard it on BD, I was very impressed, if not blown away.

I mean let's face it, outside of the neutered ultra lows, it has great panning, surround effects, and impressive bass overall.

Heck, you could prolly pick 100 BD's out of a hat and it would better at least 90 in the audio department.

That all said, upon hearing about the increased low-end of that DVD version, I immediately picked it up for $4 used, and the difference upon playback was undeniable. I didn't alter a single setting for playback, either.

So perhaps a 93% on BD went to a 97 on DVD?

great, exactly why we all dove into BD?!

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #202 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kartoon2005 View Post

I emailed FOX with this thread link.

Also WOTW is coming out on BR, hope it doesn't have a 25hz filter.

You got a release date for WOTW, toons? EDIT: Nevermind: June 1.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #203 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

.AGAIN the CONSUMERS problem is that his/her breaks stopped working- not that a break line was severed or that there's a manufacturer design defect with the piston.

The things that stop your car are spelled "brakes" not "breaks."

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #204 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

The things that stop your car are spelled "brakes" not "breaks."

awesome, thanks. Apparently, my mind has become numb from processing some of this gibberish.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #205 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:32 AM
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4. Oh well. A scant few have railed against common sense for far too long within this thread and have made their own beds. Humans have their limitations.

Again, you can disagree without being disrespectful.
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post #206 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

awesome, thanks. Apparently, my mind has become numb from processing most of this gibberish.

James

Just bustin your chops. It's all in good fun.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #207 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFrank View Post

Again, you can disagree without being disrespectful.

again, it's not disrespectful.

common sense: (n) sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence

I'm assuming we all possess at least "normal" intelligence, so my assertion that some are railing against CS implies that a few are choosing to behave in a way that serves no purpose other than to argue, not that they lack the intellect or faculties to compose a salient rebuttal.

if that's "disrespectful", than I'm guilty. oh well. I guess I shouldn't assume the majority of forum members are adults and should probably be a bit less sensitive. Oops, I was probably being disrespectful again. sigh.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #208 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Just bustin your chops. It's all in good fun.

it's cool, I'm usually a stickler for that kind of stuff, so thanks.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #209 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 08:45 AM
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if that's "disrespectful", than I'm guilty.

Finally I can agree with you on something. Now let the rest of us move on and figure out what's actually wrong with these discs.
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post #210 of 928 Old 05-07-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakka View Post

I've been playing around with settings for the last 2 hours and this is as close as I can get to the original graph. The color pallette and amplitude scale are still wrong though.

Try lowering your input level. In Windows you can do that with the volume slider on the "line in" volume control. I expanded my graphs to 200Hz when doing LFE so I could see when I had the input level set about right. If you have it set too high you'll see all the noise above 120Hz.
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