The best pair of subs you would you buy (under $10K)? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 376 Old 05-11-2010, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Brandon - Here are the numbers posted by Tom Danley for 2 meters GP on a single DTS-10:

So, anyway as of now, using a sine wave, one DTS-10 in half space, at two meters, reaches the following levels;
CEA 2010 Max RMS Output @ 2mtrs.

12Hz 102dB
16Hz 108dB
20Hz 109dB
25Hz 111dB
31.5 114dB
40Hz 114dB
50Hz 117dB
63Hz 115dB
80Hz 127 dB
Ultra low AVG 20-31.5Hz
111.3dB
Low Bass 40-63Hz
114.3
20Hz-80Hz AVG
115dB


It's a terrific subwoofer, no doubt. However, for Jeff's requirements, especially his current incredibly potent B-Deaps handling the stuff above 40 Hz, there are more powerful choices in the range.

Jeff could have custom built Maelstom 21's as a quad pack, tuned to 10 Hz, and come in with a subwoofer pair that delivers 112 dB outdoors at 10 Hz, which is 4 dB more than the DTS-10 pair could do at 12 Hz.

Mark Seaton could add his Terraforma XL's into the mix, especially if he has some info (hint, hint, Mark) about the output in the 10-40 Hz range.

If memory serves, Jeff was also getting some serious room gain below about 25 Hz in his custom built theater.

Regardless the outcome, this is a cool thread. Jeff, thanks for making outrageous bass fun.



I wish I had 10k to put into my system! Good grief I can imagine the intensity of what I'm adding but I can't imagine Terraforma XL's as something you would add to the mix, incredible.

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post #92 of 376 Old 05-11-2010, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

link ?

this but with 18's instead of 15's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHcBvmBKL4

X2!

would be custom built and be the equivalent of 4, A7-900s!
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post #93 of 376 Old 05-11-2010, 10:03 PM
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Guys, I know we like to see numbers and all but it seems that the people that doubt the performance of the DTS-10 are the people who have not heard one properly dialed in. There have been numerous comparsions with other great subs including the LMS ultra and XXX as well as IB's and multiple DIY subs and we know the performance to be on par with 1 dts-10 vs 2 sealed LMS ultra and XXX's. The differences are small and there are tradeoffs.
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post #94 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 04:42 AM
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Well that was a pretty important part of the equation. Did I miss where the parameters were set to be a supporting sub to B-Deaps?

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post #95 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Well that was a pretty important part of the equation. Did I miss where the parameters were set to be a supporting sub to B-Deaps?

Nope... You missed nothing.

I'm getting ideas of what all the bass heads here would do.

But yes, the BDEAPS are as strong as anything at 30 HZ and up. I have them EQ'd down to make for some decent 12 HZ stuff.... but would like more output. Doing so would really allow the B-DEAPS to sing. I'd like something to do 30Hz and below.

I have esthetic concerns in the room. This is my main issue as I cannot hide the subs.

I'll post a room picture.

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post #96 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 05:07 AM
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I don't have enough experience to have a documented opinion (or much else for that matter) But I am running a single DTS-10 and it shakes the house with a 10hz sine wave.

There likely are better subs down that low, not doubting that. But assuming aesthetic concerns being your "main issue", the 16" dimension of the DTS would work nicely behind your screen. With unrestricted height dimension, you could even stack them. I've got a 14' wide screen (as you do), and would have no problem fitting 8 of these behind my screen if I chose. I'm stopping at two.

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post #97 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

Both audiophile 15" subs that use a TRUE class A/B amplifier. None of that crap economy Class D garbage they put in 99.99% of all subs on the market today.........

Whatever the measurements do not back up your claim.

We are talking about power for subs, its low frequencies dominated by the room. You are not going to hear a difference between your expensive amps and the new Peavy IPR-3000. The 3000 WILL put out the power need as well as the other amps (IPR-1600 was measured and confirmed to be a great amp).

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post #98 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 05:45 AM
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What ever Mark Seaton could customize for $10K. Proper room setup coming with the cost.

Other then that it would be two LMS 18" woofers built into sealed boxes, with 10K Watts (the 220V 40 amp circuit wiriing would be in the cost). 5K for the speaker build, 5K for the power!

Nothing would come close to it in the higher or lower frequencies.

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post #99 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 05:48 AM
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Quote:


I'll post a room picture.

Please don't, we all feel a little inadequate afterwards

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post #100 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Whatever the measurements do not back up your claim.

We are talking about power for subs, its low frequencies dominated by the room. You are not going to hear a difference between your expensive amps and the new Peavy IPR-3000. The 3000 WILL put out the power need as well as the other amps (IPR-1600 was measured and confirmed to be a great amp).

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

What ever Mark Seaton could customize for $10K. Proper room setup coming with the cost.

Other then that it would be two LMS 18" woofers built into sealed boxes, with 10K Watts (the 220V 40 amp circuit wiriing would be in the cost). 5K for the speaker build, 5K for the power!

Nothing would come close to it in the higher or lower frequencies.


Thank you.....
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post #101 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Please don't, we all feel a little inadequate afterwards

+1.... ok, actually I wanna see it.

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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post #102 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

What ever Mark Seaton could customize for $10K. Proper room setup coming with the cost.

Other then that it would be two LMS 18" woofers built into sealed boxes, with 10K Watts (the 220V 40 amp circuit wiriing would be in the cost). 5K for the speaker build, 5K for the power!

Nothing would come close to it in the higher or lower frequencies.

Just... I had to install a 240 circuit for a 2kw linear amplifier for my Ham Radio. For a subwoofer, good grief man... I have so much to learn about this hobby, I love it!

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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post #103 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 06:26 AM
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Yeah, I should say a circuit for each amp and I should actually go with dual LMS-18s in sealed boxes...we might go over the 10K mark depending on the amps we selected.

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post #104 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 06:29 AM
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A project like this would follow a build like this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1175273

That DIY project was more then 10K though but the premise is the same and we would build two instead of 4.

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post #105 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

A project like this would follow a build like this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1175273

That DIY project was more then 10K though but the premise is the same and we would build two instead of 4.

That project was all about excess, not that that is a problem, very nice build indeed, but it can easily be done for far cheaper.... don't ask me how I know.....
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post #106 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

That project was all about excess, not that that is a problem, very nice build indeed, but it can easily be done for far cheaper.... don't ask me how I know.....

Oh, I 100% agree with you but the premise/design is there....ultimate drivers, dual sealed designs. Maximum power.

You have more experience with different subs and drivers then I do, you get to have GTGs!! Do you think anything comes close to the LMS drivers?

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post #107 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Oh, I 100% agree with you but the premise/design is there....ultimate drivers, dual sealed designs. Maximum power.

You have more experience with different subs and drivers then I do, you get to have GTGs!! Do you think anything comes close to the LMS drivers?



Hmmmm for SQ, Build Quality, Linearity Performance, Excursion - they are just plain and simple the best drivers available - IMO. Nothing I have had, has had the ability to come close to what the LMS's can deliver. Then again - I have 8500^3 + to fill and still look nice out in the open.

Maybe the XXX or probably Arthur could chime in here about the Accupowers, but that company is defunct now.

There are plenty ways to skin a cat, the Danleys perform extremely well but have their drawbacks as well, though I have not had first hand experience with them aside from movie theaters or concerts...

I will again quote Ricci, since I asked him this direct question in comparison to the 3 mentioned.....

Quote:


Originally Posted by Ricci
I'd still take the LMS for pure SQ and versatility. XXX as a little behind but offering more guts on the super lows. However what the DTS does in the low 30hz and under bass is something special. It is so clean even at very solid levels. Seriously what it does with 10-25hz is the smoothest/ cleanest I've ever heard. With the direct radiator subs you can hear just a tiny bit of extra noise from the driver surrounds and the cone, or port noises. That stuff is gone with the TH cab at least until you start to overdrive it. I'd put a big amp on one. I'd consider an EP4000 bridged as a good choice and really there's no reason to go smaller. It's an efficient cab but it's still nice to have plenty of power for crazy peaks without clipping. It's a loud cab but it does have limits. A pair of LMS's or sealed XXX's on BIG power will outgun one below 30hz by a few db's at full tilt, but that shouldn't be a surprise really. You know what kind of output we are talking about there. Danley measured 102.1db at 12hz outside in a test like Illka's. Way past single JL F113 territory. You'd need 3 or 4 F113's to play in that league. The 40-100hz range will get CRAZY loud for regular old music. That's one DTS10 with 2 rather unassuming 12's in it on something about the size of an EP4000.

I'd suggest getting the kit, an EP4000 for power and a DCX2496 to tame the best. It does need some EQ and tweaking to get it into it's best form. After that it's a winner.

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post #108 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the front of my room with the screen in and out.





Note the 2 BDEAPS bisecting the center of the room behind the baffle wall.

The area between the front column and screen is about 52". The column depth is 12" and the screen material is exactly 16" from the side wall. The front columns are dummy columns and could be removed for a 'sub tower' of similar dimensions. A Terraform XL would fit there but I wonder about the esthetics.

Getting two subs behind the baffle wall would require a disassembly of the baffle wall. I'm not keen on that given the screen is in 3 pieces, is screwed in and was difficult to install and position squarely.

I have no power on the sidewalls near the screen and it would likely be costly to get power there and may pose an esthetic issue as the sidewalls are outer walls and filled with insulation. That said, I can get the power there if need be, however.

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post #109 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 08:26 AM
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Jeff, I know what you mean about wanting the room to look good. My room is a closet compared to some here. Click on my system to see what I mean. I am particular on how I wanted the room to look. For ex, I was extremely hesitant on doing any kind of room treatments. i was very concerned that they would dominate the room. Well, to be honest, I hardly notice them now. And If I watch at night with the lights out, you can barely see them at all. As for my sub, The SubMersive1, more than a few people thought it was an end table. I am now even thinking what other kind of treatments I can do down the line. Plus, people wont really care what it looks like when you have your RUNTS, B-Deaps and Terraform XL's running. They will be to busy cleaning the drool off their face.

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post #110 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 08:28 AM
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What about eliminating the front false columns and fitting a pair of DTS-10's along the wall with the mouths facing into the room, then hiding the whole box behind a new false wall... All you would have to do is get speaker wire to the subs at that point back to the amps...

That would certainly keep the aesthetics in place and not disturb the screen wall, heck you could probably stack a pair of them on each wall for serious overkill....

Or another option.....

Make new functional concealed subwoofer columns..... Though depending on the driver - may have to be larger...
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post #111 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Brandon - Here are the numbers posted by Tom Danley for 2 meters GP on a single DTS-10:

So, anyway as of now, using a sine wave, one DTS-10 in half space, at two meters, reaches the following levels;
CEA 2010 Max RMS Output @ 2mtrs.

12Hz 102dB
16Hz 108dB
20Hz 109dB
25Hz 111dB
31.5 114dB
40Hz 114dB
50Hz 117dB
63Hz 115dB
80Hz 127 dB
Ultra low AVG 20-31.5Hz
111.3dB
Low Bass 40-63Hz
114.3
20Hz-80Hz AVG
115dB


It's a terrific subwoofer, no doubt. However, for Jeff's requirements, especially his current incredibly potent B-Deaps handling the stuff above 40 Hz, there are more powerful choices in the range.

Jeff could have custom built Maelstom 21's as a quad pack, tuned to 10 Hz, and come in with a subwoofer pair that delivers 112 dB outdoors at 10 Hz, which is 4 dB more than the DTS-10 pair could do at 12 Hz.

Mark Seaton could add his Terraforma XL's into the mix, especially if he has some info (hint, hint, Mark) about the output in the 10-40 Hz range.

If memory serves, Jeff was also getting some serious room gain below about 25 Hz in his custom built theater.

Regardless the outcome, this is a cool thread. Jeff, thanks for making outrageous bass fun.


Unfortunately they haven't done further testing, but read the next quote to see what happened with the test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

A little bit more info. I have been out of the office for a couple of weeks doing other work. So I was not around when Mike was doing the distortion tests-but here is what I found out today.

He origionally started doing the test with a professional Danley amp, the 6.5K, which will easily do 2200 watts At 4 ohms. He was using steady state sine waves for the tests.

Before he could get the distortions to even start to show up-the amp was clipping. And that is with more power than is recommended for the cabinet.

So he bridged the amp and was getting a max output of 6500 watts. I don't think he was able to use all of that however.

He did the tests, but at some point (in the higher freq I assume) the drivers quite working. BUt the damage may have started at a lower freq, therefore making the higher freq look worse than they would be under shorter signal conditions.

I tore into them today and the coils were cooked.

So here are some conclusions. In order to get up to 10% distortion-you need more than 2200 watts and producing that amount of distortion-you are likely to cook the drivers.

A burst test is much less brutal than what Mike used-so he may have been able to get more out of them with shorter signal times applied. For sure the drivers would take a lot more power than pure sinewaves.

A word of warning-if you are going to try this test (using continious sine waves), on your own cabinets/drivers-be prepared to replace them as this is a BRUTAL test.

I have a feeling with the actual tone burst testing the numbers would be a good but better. Combine that with non fried voice coils and it would certainly go up on all frequencies. I will ask again to see if anymore testing is planned.
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post #112 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Here are the numbers posted by Tom Danley for 2 meters GP on a single DTS-10:

It's a terrific subwoofer, no doubt. However, for Jeff's requirements, especially his current incredibly potent B-Deaps handling the stuff above 40 Hz, there are more powerful choices in the range.

Jeff could have custom built Maelstom 21's as a quad pack, tuned to 10 Hz, and come in with a subwoofer pair that delivers 112 dB outdoors at 10 Hz, which is 4 dB more than the DTS-10 pair could do at 12 Hz.



Craig,

Be careful comparing simulated #'s from a perfectly scaling computer environment using small signal parameters to real world #'s actually measured. Many non linearities crop up at the edges of the performance envelope as you know. It's not exactly apples to apples


Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Unfortunately they haven't done further testing, but read the next quote to see what happened with the test. I have a feeling with the actual tone burst testing the numbers would be a good but better. Combine that with non fried voice coils and it would certainly go up on all frequencies. I will ask again to see if anymore testing is planned.

I plan to try and do it myself this summer.
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post #113 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

THe fact is anything i put will detract from my room, so I am looking for the smallest thing possible for big ULF.


Unfortunately your wants are at odds with each other. Aren't they always? The bigger the enclosure the more low end efficiency and the better for ULF. since that is the case you'll likely end up with the best performance if you come in close to your maximum size.






Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

But yes, the BDEAPS are as strong as anything at 30 HZ and up. I have them EQ'd down to make for some decent 12 HZ stuff.... but would like more output. Doing so would really allow the B-DEAPS to sing. I'd like something to do 30Hz and below.

I have esthetic concerns in the room. This is my main issue as I cannot hide the subs.




Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

A column to match my room columns could be 9' tall with a width of ~20" and depth of 14" - 16"..

The column area would give an internal useable volume of about 15 cu ft or a bit less. Would you run 2 of these?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My room is ~ 4300 sq ft and ideally, if I placed a box in the front, it would have to be no greater than 16" deep, up to 50" wide and no constraint on height. .


The front stage sub I figured would only use as much height as the columns so that would be about 40cu ft of useable internal volume.

Since you need the aesthetics to be decent and for fitting to the room and the best way to maximize your enclosure volume for those hungry ULF's is going to end up oddly shaped, I'd recommend DIY or something custom from somebody like Mark, Jeff P., or Tom D. Actually I'd recommend DIY or custom anyway but that's just me.

You are looking at mostly covering <30-35hz on down and it needs to match up with the extremely capable horn subs that you already have up top. I think a gaggle of sealed subs is the best way to do this. Ported can be good but anything covering down to 10hz will be very large with huge vents needed. Your dimensions that you have given of the space available don't really lend themselves to PR's IMHO. Horn enclosures can be awesome but they need to be really big to get down to the lower teens (FLH ridiculously so)and they are much more difficult to design and construct well.

I must say that the DTS10 really does fit into your useable area really well at 16 x 44 x 59.5, so if going commercial that would top my list personally. It is a su b that does 10-30hz very cleanly and with plenty of authority. A pair in the front stacked may be a good solution. No one with a pair has complained of lacking the output yet. You could almost go for 2 stacked up front and 2 more to replace side columns but I believe that'd blow your budget a bit. Too bad you missed out on the kit deal as 4 would've been a no brainer.


How is your electrical looking? What sort of AC line/s do you have available for the amplifiers for the sub system?
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post #114 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 10:12 AM
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ntrain arguing he knows more than anyone, getting his facts wrong, chided by an admin...why does this all sound so familiar?

on topic - for 10K i'd keep the money and wait until it thunderstorms to play my movies. instant free bass.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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post #115 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Craig,

Be careful comparing simulated #'s from a perfectly scaling computer environment using small signal parameters to real world #'s actually measured. Many non linearities crop up at the edges of the performance envelope as you know. It's not exactly apples to apples .

No disrespect to the 'robust' drivers used in the DTS-10, but the XBl^2 motors are gonna come closer to the model below 20Hz without compression than any other motor I know of. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Mael-21s ability to hit target below 40Hz.

Bosso
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post #116 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

2 Choices.

A. A pair of Revel B15a's

OR:

B. A pair of Rythmik servo D15SE's

Both audiophile 15" subs that use a TRUE class A/B amplifier. None of that crap economy Class D garbage they put in 99.99% of all subs on the market today.........


These are good recommendations if aesthetics are a huge factor for you. If your just concerned about the sound though, there is much better to be had.

Something like the Terraform XL, Danley DS10, or JTR Orbit Shifter would completely crush the Rythmik and Revel in every way possible except looks.

Again, it depends on what you want. I think most people would go for the Rythmik or Revel just because they don't want something as large as say a Terraform XL in their family room.
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post #117 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 12:11 PM
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[quote=thebland;18621246]Here is the front of my room with the screen in and out.

It would look a lot nicer if you had red seats!!

Nice looking room!!

What are the approximate room dimensions?
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post #118 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 01:38 PM
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Why do I get a sense this is going to be a DTS debate all over again?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #119 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

No disrespect to the 'robust' drivers used in the DTS-10, but the XBl^2 motors are gonna come closer to the model below 20Hz without compression than any other motor I know of. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Mael-21s ability to hit target below 40Hz.

Bosso

No disrespect to XBL^2, but I'd go with LMT, with a nod to split coil in that competition.

Anyway the point was that he is comparing a real measurement to a perfect model and had exactly nothing to do with the Mal-x or the DTS10 in particular. Either compare sim against sim, or real world against real world.
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post #120 of 376 Old 05-12-2010, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

No disrespect to XBL^2, but I'd go with LMT, with a nod to split coil in that competition.

Right, that's another (much more expensive) argument.

Quote:


Anyway the point was that he is comparing a real measurement to a perfect model and had exactly nothing to do with the Mal-x or the DTS10 in particular. Either compare sim against sim, or real world against real world.

Yes, I got your point and I disagree with it. I'm saying the Mael 21 sim is close enough to real world to have made the statement Craig made regarding the M-21 only. Far from having exactly nothing to do with it.

I have no clue what the DTS-10 can do other than the numbers MH posted (that Craig referenced) and neither does anyone else.

Bosso
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