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post #1 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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So does anyone have this sub yet?

The initial numbers looked good and it's priced really well. I'm just curious as to why there haven't been any talk of this particular sub yet.

From TCA Website:
CS-18.2 Output levels:

10 Hz: 100 dB

20 Hz: 112 dB

25-80 Hz average (using 5 Hz increments): 126 dB

I would like to see the THD, compression, group delay, and spectral decay measurements of this sub. I'm just curious as to whether this sub is all SPL and little SQ or does it have both.
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post #2 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 10:39 AM
 
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A thread had been started here before they were shipping so it was locked. They are currently shipping, and I believe a few people have received theirs.

Here's one of a few pictures over on TCA's forum:

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post #3 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 10:40 AM
 
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I'm waiting for Tweak City Audio to get organized. That site is a disorganized mess. You have to search threads just to find a product and when you do happen to find one there is no pics or info on how to order. It's pathetic.

I was interested in purchasing this sub or the 18.1 from them. But they need to get their house in order first. It's like their website was designed by Sears.
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post #4 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 10:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

I'm waiting for Tweak City Audio to get organized. That site is a disorganized mess. You have to search threads just to find a product and when you do happend to find one there is no pics or info on how to order. It's pathetic.

I was interested in purchasing this sub or the 18.1 from them. But they need to get their house in order first. It's like their website was designed by Sears.

Just shoot them an email here, they'll let you know what's going on: sales@tweakcityaudio.com

I believe they are building a webstore to come soon as well.

I believe it's safe to post pricing?

Specifications common to all CraigSUB Subwoofers from Tweak City Audio

1. Construction is Baltic Birch.
2. Drivers (custom design) made in USA.
3. Amps (custom design) made in USA.
4. Enclosures made in USA.
5. Finishes in Matte Black or Matte White.
6. Nomenclature will tell about subwoofer - CS is short for CraigSUB, the first number is driver size, the second number is number of drivers.
7. Posted numbers as specs are also as tested numbers, including amp power.
8. All TCA subwoofers are designed to be within the 1/8 wavelength distance from the corner boundary, which will allow for a theoretical boundary gain of 18 dB. Of course, most of us don't have 3 foot thick concrete walls and floors, so typical boundary gain will be 9-15 dB.

CraigSUB CS-10.2 Subwoofer System

1. The CS-10.2 will have a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 25 to 200 Hz. The response curve is deliberately going to roll off at 12 dB per octave below 25 Hz to match the room gain of the intended room for a subwoofer in its size and price category.

2. The CS-10.2 will be 26"H x 14"W x 12"D.

3. The CS-10.2 will have opposing baffle drivers, making for an elegant look for one's room. The Baffle facing the room will be a flat panel of finished wood.

4. The CS-10.2 will have an amp rating of 200 Watts rms and 300 watts peak.

5. The CS-10.2 will deliver the following SPL at 2 meters Groundplane:

15 Hz .........................86 dB
20 Hz .........................91 dB
31.5 Hz ......................99 dB
50 Hz ........................107 dB
20-63 Hz avg .............103 dB
20-31.5 Hz average .... 94 dB
40-63 Hz average ....... 107 dB

6. MSRP is $475 (or $900/pair) plus actual shipping cost.


CraigSUB CS-18.1 Subwoofer System

1. The CS-18.1 will have a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 23 to 200 Hz. The response curve is deliberately going to roll off at 12 dB per octave below 23 Hz to match the room gain of the intended room for a subwoofer in its size and price category.

2. The CS-18.1 will be 20"H x 20"W x 20"D.

3. The CS-18.1 will have a front firing driver with an enclosure matching grill.

4. The CS-18.1 will have an amp rating of 400 Watts rms and 900 watts peak.

5. The CS-18.1 will deliver the following SPL at 2 meters Groundplane:

15 Hz .........................95 dB
20 Hz .........................100 dB
31.5 Hz ......................108 dB
50 Hz .........................115 dB
20-63 Hz avg ..............111 dB
20-31.5 Hz average .....104 dB
40-63 Hz average ....... 115 dB

6. MSRP is $775 (or $1470/pair) plus actual shipping cost.

CraigSUB CS-18.2 Subwoofer System

1. The CS-18.2 will have a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 23 to 200 Hz. The response curve is deliberately going to roll off at 12 dB per octave below 23 Hz to match the room gain of the intended room for a subwoofer in its size and price category.

2. The CS-18.2 will be 40"H x 20"W x 20"D.

3. The CS-18.2 will have opposing baffle drivers, making for an elegant look for one's room. The Baffle facing the room will be a flat panel of finished wood.

4. The CS-18.2 will have an amp rating of 800 Watts rms and 1800 watts peak.

5. The CS-18.2 will deliver the following SPL at 2 meters Groundplane:

15 Hz .........................101 dB
20 Hz .........................106 dB
31.5 Hz ......................114 dB
50 Hz .........................121 dB
20-63 Hz avg ..............117 dB
20-31.5 Hz average .....110 dB
40-63 Hz average ........121 dB

6. MSRP is $1275 (or $2420/pair) plus actual shipping cost.
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post #5 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

I'm just curious as to whether this sub is all SPL and little SQ or does it have both.

From madpoet (who's 18.2 is pictured above), referring to a Rythmik dual 12" servo: "I had a PB13 before my Rythmik. The Rythmik was better. The 18.2 is better than the Rythmik."
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post #6 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

A thread had been started here before they were shipping so it was locked. They are currently shipping, and I believe a few people have received theirs.

Here's one of a few pictures over on TCA's forum:


I can't see the picture. How about a hotlink to the picture? Or maybe you can get the picture working.
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post #7 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

From madpoet (who's 18.2 is pictured above), referring to a Rythmik dual 12" servo: "I had a PB13 before my Rythmik. The Rythmik was better. The 18.2 is better than the Rythmik."

Holy jeebus! If that is indeed true... literally. If possible, I would still like to hear them first since shipping such huge subwoofers is a pain and I wouldn't want to try shipping them back for a return, just in case, although it seems like the chance would be infinitesimally small this time. I'd love to rock 2 of these bad boys if possible.

Would it be unadvised to place one near field and one far field? The near field sub should be able to provide the tactile response if placed behind a couch, while the far field sub would provide more of a gut punch.
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post #8 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 11:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I can't see the picture. How about a hotlink to the picture? Or maybe you can get the picture working.

My bad, fixed.
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post #9 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 11:50 AM
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Yea that was me that started that thread, should of waited untill they were actually shipping. I have one on order just waiting for the grills to be completed which will be shortly. This sub is a performer it goes deep and has sound quality to boot as per some early reviews on TCA's website. Will post pics and thoughts after setup. Remember the posted response of the 18.2 is at 2 meters groundplane, not in room as some of the subs quoted here.
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post #10 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

I'm waiting for Tweak City Audio to get organized. That site is a disorganized mess. You have to search threads just to find a product and when you do happend to find one there is no pics or info on how to order. It's pathetic.

I was interested in purchasing this sub or the 18.1 from them. But they need to get their house in order first. It's like their website was designed by Sears.

Diamondelts, It is against forum rules to post links to pricing, etc ... but perhaps this will help.

1. We are finishing the actual web site, which will include easy navigation of all products, including individual products and complete systems. What you are referring to is our forum, which is, by nature, populated with many posts by forum members. I can understand how this can cause confulsion.

2. On December 4, 2009, a thread was opened which has been stickied at the top of our forum called "TCA Product Line Both Current and Pending - Including specs, measurements and MSRP".

This thread includes all the current information and pricing on our products.

I apologize for the fact that the regular website is not yet complete, and started the thread mentioned above to simplify the search process for those looking for information. It appears I failed to make it as easy as I hoped to.

Thank you for your feedback.
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post #11 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosso View Post

Quote:


originally posted by sbdman view post
i'd like to put myself in double jeopardy, and along with being a newbie, play the devil's advocate.
I'll agree over distortion can't be a good thing, but up to that point will a sub with much lower distortion sound better than one with more distortion? We're talking mostly infrasonics here, and theoretically could the higher distortion sub have more feeling or presence, or is it leaching off the output capability from overly distorting? Is there a point where being too clean gets you un-noticed?
Sorry in advance for being heretical, i've heard some less than golden ears say they miss their noisier ported subs sound with their newer higher quality sealed subs. Is this distortion like the difference between an acoustic bass and electric similar down in the 32hz and lower region?
Still trying to understand why the os (or dts) advertise such high numbers at this extreme frequency.

brace for a long post...

It's really a matter of accurate reproduction. It's a learned art to listen to and come to appreciate it. The world of audio has decided long ago that 20hz is the bottom of the reproduction bandwidth and has so distorted the low frequencies of real events that generations have become accustomed to that distortion.

I recently had my son drag his kick drum into the ht to measure it and graph it with spectralab to "see" what it sounds like and illustrate the point. I then measured the kick drum from a tune on steely dan's "gaucho" sacd.



This is typical of what the modern recording process does to a real event to make it sound "better". Compression, eq, gating, limiting and leveling results in a kick drum that barely resembles itself. It's gotten to the point where, if a live-to-2-track, unprocessed kick drum were to be used on the same sd track, everyone would wince in pain and complain that the kick drum sounds terrible, fake even.

Note that there is a law of physics that every transient in nature has spectral content to dc. This is reflected in the mic'd version of the real kick drum transient, although my rig is only accurate to 3-4hz, which is reflected in the spectrogram, and it's filtered out of the 'produced' version.

Another bone of contention is that adding post eq to achieve a house curve, although this may be a preferred presentation by someone, is an unnecessary distortion. This is thought by some to be necessary to compensate for the non-linearity of human hearing of low frequencies as per the equal loudness contours. Nature includes the elc in its spectra of real events and mix engineers do as well, since they all have elc meters built into their human hearing.

Curious as i always am, i decided to mic and graph a door slam. I then zoomed in on the bar graph and scaled and laid over the graph the 80 phon elc curve.

I then mic'd a foley door slam from a popular movie to again illustrate the bias (that leads to a distortion of real events) in created effects. You can clearly see that the spectral signature is moved up in frequency by 3 octaves, the extreme low end is filtered out and the higher frequencies are enhanced, but... Again notice that the engineers mixed the effect to 'sound right'. That is, they did not mix the effect flat so that the end user of the product could "fix" it to human hearing non-linearities with eq to affect a 'house curve'.



Iow, if i had added a house curve and mic'd the same scene, it would not even resemble the actual recorded source. Nor would it sound as it was intended to sound by the creators, mixers and mastering engineers.

Even more audible a distortion is the arbitrary truncation of the bandwidth of the system. Although the so-called audiophiles of the stereo format era as well as the pro sound industry continue to steadfastly adhere to the 20-20khz bandwidth as the measure for accurate reproduction, the simple and glaring fact is that the dolby specification for all channels is to 3hz, with the lfe channel at +10db of headroom. And, that spec is 20 years old.

The goal is such a simple concept that it boggles the mind to see so much confusion on the subject. Accurate reproduction is to decode the source, convert it to analog and amplify it so that it's identical at the listening position to what was encoded on the disc.

Instead, we get various pontifications from experts as to what was intended to be on the disc, what is important and not important, what can be tossed out of the reproduction, how it should be calibrated because of elc, auditory masking, audibility, listener preferences, etc.

Well, i guess if i sold bandwidth-limited subwoofers, i would be preaching the virtues of its bandwidth as "all you really need" as well.

Since the in-room fr of the owner of the os was posted and the comments of listeners was included, i couldn't help but take what i read and sum it in a pictorial.

Quote:


talk about midbass slam!! The orbit shifters punch you in the gut and rattle your rib cage, all while delivering incredibly clean, detailed, and powerful lfe. It was simultaneously exhilarating and eerie actually, resulting in a bit of cognitive dissonance - so much output, yet clean as a whistle. I'd seen the avatar scenes we demoed in two of the best-sounding commercial theaters in the country (sf metreon imax, arclight cineramadome in hollywood) and this was the by far the cleanest sounding and most impactful midbass i've experienced.

here's a typical effect from avatar, which has almost no content below 25hz, right up the oss alley, and just so happens to be a scene that plays to the distorted fr at the listeners ears.



Btw, i couldn't help but wonder how the listener knew the presentation was "incredibly clean'

this is a very common occurrence when big subwoofers are touted. Loud takes precedence over accurate. The sonic cannons scene from hulk was also mentioned as being bumped so that the total spl on the meter hit 127db. This, of course, doesn't speak to what frequencies, if any, are left out altogether, or bumped or attenuated, or if there are any frequencies added through harmonic distortion, it just tells how loud the playback level was.

Here is that scene digitally taken straight off the dvd player vs mic'd at the listening position. The mic'd version would show any distortion in frequency response, distortions of added decay times and added harmonics as well as distortion in overall levels.



It's my contention that a sealed sub with enough displacement and amp power for the room and listening distance that's eq'd to best work with the rooms transfer function (room gain profile) is the only way to achieve accurate reproduction of such extreme format requirements as those presented by lossless dolby true hd and dts master audio.

For all of the claims to the contrary, it's a simple challenge and spectralab is freeware. Post the response at the lp vs the digital rendering and let us see the subs performance.

I'm posting here because craig has been paying attention where the others have not. Loud is cool but quickly wears thin and damages your hearing. And, ilkka, nousaine, mullen and charlie have measured enough ported, passive radiator, horn and bandpass subs to conclude that bandwidth limited subs give unacceptable color and noise below tune so as to be virtually unusable at any playback level.

Accurate is a learned art that lasts forever and the cs-18.1 and .2 (or multiples thereof) will go much farther to that end than the pro sound versions of a ht subwoofer system and in 1/2 the space at a far lower price.

No opinion, just the facts. Once you have a reference accurate playback capability, any of the common distortions can be dialed in for preferences sake, but having the capability to cleanly reproduce the source as it was produced to be heard is a relatively rare thing that should be at the top of anyone's list.

Bosso

Couldn't agree more. The quote above was taken from TCA forum.

Anyone who can read charts and graphs should look at Illka's tests on subwoofers. It is clear that ported, PR, etc. subs just don't cut it. This is why in my Rythmik vs. Submersive thread, I stated that I avoid PR subs like the plague.

Now if Bosso could get his hands on this sub and run some tests, things should get more interesting.
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post #12 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 03:58 PM
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Question for craig-

Why make a 10" sub...and then skip right on up to 18" subs? Why no 12" and 15" subs? Thanks.
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post #13 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 04:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeelarr View Post

Question for craig-

Why make a 10" sub...and then skip right on up to 18" subs? Why no 12" and 15" subs? Thanks.

The simple answer: It's all about getting the product done right, one product at a time. The dual 10 has as much air moving ability as a pretty long throw 12, and works well in a modest sized cabinet.

The design goal for the CS-10.2 was to give excellent sound quality bass to below 20 Hz in a small footprint. Its performance "mentor" is the ACI Titan.

The CS-18.1 is only $300 more than the CS-10.2. We currently don't have a 12 or 15 that makes sense to bridge that gap.

However, we are looking at some pretty interesting 12's in the next month.
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post #14 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 04:59 PM
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Right on.

The only reason I asked was because the 18.1 is in a 20^3 box. I was hoping for a 12 in something like a 14^3 box, since your prices seem to be very competitive.
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post #15 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

A thread had been started here before they were shipping so it was locked. They are currently shipping, and I believe a few people have received theirs.

So these are available for order and shipping from the public now? Or only chosen beta testers?

Big box, that's for sure!
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post #16 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 07:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cneely8 View Post

So these are available for order and shipping from the public now? Or only chosen beta testers?

Big box, that's for sure!

The first run was mixed between beta testers and customers who wanted to get in on the first batch of products. I believe they have stopped taking orders for those.

The next run should be starting shortly, but you'd have to email sales@tweakcityaudio.com to get specifics.
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post #17 of 689 Old 07-28-2010, 09:01 PM
 
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Hi all - Our subs are all in full production. As lil gator mentioned, you can get information at the email address he posted.

Any and all technical questions can be answered here.
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post #18 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Couldn't agree more. The quote above was taken from TCA forum.

Anyone who can read charts and graphs should look at Illka's tests on subwoofers. It is clear that ported, PR, etc. subs just don't cut it. This is why in my Rythmik vs. Submersive thread, I stated that I avoid PR subs like the plague.

Wow....I guess all us with big ported subs, or PRs are pretty much screwed. That sucks.
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post #19 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Couldn't agree more. The quote above was taken from TCA forum.

Anyone who can read charts and graphs should look at Illka's tests on subwoofers. It is clear that ported, PR, etc. subs just don't cut it. This is why in my Rythmik vs. Submersive thread, I stated that I avoid PR subs like the plague.

Now if Bosso could get his hands on this sub and run some tests, things should get more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Wow....I guess all us with big ported subs, or PRs are pretty much screwed. That sucks.

I'd like to see those particular Illka tests that specifically demonstrate that ported subs don't cut it vs sealed subs.
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post #20 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'd like to see those particular Illka tests that specifically demonstrate that ported subs don't cut it vs sealed subs.


Yeah, Ilkka was pretty impressed with the SVS PB-13 Ultra, including in 15 Hz tune.
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post #21 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 10:16 AM
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"Any and all technical questions can be answered here."

congrats on getting them to market. i know that it has been more than a few headaches. what happened with qsc?

i assume that you put some eq in the amps in order to flatten the response somewhat. do you have a plot of the frequency response 'as delivered'?

even in this crap economy, i'd expect you to blow out your first batch of inventory pretty quickly. it appears to be a pretty good design and a fantastic price, which should = win.

i'd ask for t/s specs on the driver, just out of curiousity, but i know you won't share. it's kind of funny. you'd never buy a car without knowing the motor details, but we are supposed to do this with subs. ;-)

anyways, congrats again.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #22 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 10:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Any and all technical questions can be answered here."

congrats on getting them to market. i know that it has been more than a few headaches. what happened with qsc?

i assume that you put some eq in the amps in order to flatten the response somewhat. do you have a plot of the frequency response 'as delivered'?

even in this crap economy, i'd expect you to blow out your first batch of inventory pretty quickly. it appears to be a pretty good design and a fantastic price, which should = win.

i'd ask for t/s specs on the driver, just out of curiousity, but i know you won't share. it's kind of funny. you'd never buy a car without knowing the motor details, but we are supposed to do this with subs. ;-)

anyways, congrats again.

John - Thanks for the kind words. You will be seeing some graphs pretty soon from the guys who purchased the subwoofers.

Check your PM ...
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post #23 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Any and all technical questions can be answered here."

congrats on getting them to market. i know that it has been more than a few headaches. what happened with qsc?

i assume that you put some eq in the amps in order to flatten the response somewhat. do you have a plot of the frequency response 'as delivered'?

even in this crap economy, i'd expect you to blow out your first batch of inventory pretty quickly. it appears to be a pretty good design and a fantastic price, which should = win.

i'd ask for t/s specs on the driver, just out of curiousity, but i know you won't share. it's kind of funny. you'd never buy a car without knowing the motor details, but we are supposed to do this with subs. ;-)

anyways, congrats again.

I was just looking at the 18.1. Posts on TCA would indicate it's an 8 ohm driver, and it uses the Parts Express 500W amp, which is 273 watts at 8 ohms. So I have to assume it doesn't have much in the way of excursion. That's not a lot of oomph for a big driver like that. Not sure you could bump the low end too much with EQ without running out of juice.
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post #24 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Wow....I guess all us with big ported subs, or PRs are pretty much screwed. That sucks.

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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'd like to see those particular Illka tests that specifically demonstrate that ported subs don't cut it vs sealed subs.

DIY TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" + 2x18" PR 200L







TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" sealed 200L





SVS PB13-Ultra 20 Hz tune






DIY TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" sealed 100L






Pay attention to THD, group delay, and spectral decay at frequencies below tune. PR, ported, etc. subs work well down to tuned frequencies, but then anything under that is pretty much unusable. Yes, somewhere some people a long time ago determined that 20Hz to 20kHz is the range that is important, but we all know that many of us would like a broader range, specifically below 20Hz. I would like to quote Bosso again for emphasis:
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Originally Posted by Bosso View Post

Although the so-called audiophiles of the stereo format era as well as the pro sound industry continue to steadfastly adhere to the 20-20khz bandwidth as the measure for accurate reproduction, the simple and glaring fact is that the dolby specification for all channels is to 3hz, with the lfe channel at +10db of headroom. And, that spec is 20 years old.

So yes, for people who do not care for frequencies down to the single digits, ported, PR, etc. subs could work; however for people looking for the best SQ and SPL down to the lowest frequencies, sealed is the way to go.
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post #25 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 12:07 PM
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Just so nobody thinks I am making something up, here are the relevant posts about the 18.1

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/...&postcount=554

"....while the 18.1, with it's single driver, presents an 8 ohm load to it's amplifier."

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/...5708#post55708

"The CS-18.1 will use an HPSA500 amp, with the parametric eq working very well in providing the necessary boost in the low end for a shallow roll off. "

and the amp mentioned above

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-806

Maybe the amp has been extensively modified or the above posts are incorrect???
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post #26 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

DIY TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" + 2x18" PR 200L







TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" sealed 200L





SVS PB13-Ultra 20 Hz tune






DIY TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" sealed 100L






Pay attention to THD, group delay, and spectral decay at frequencies below tune. PR, ported, etc. subs work well down to tuned frequencies, but then anything under that is pretty much unusable. Yes, somewhere some people a long time ago determined that 20Hz to 20kHz is the range that is important, but we all know that many of us would like a broader range, specifically below 20Hz. I would like to quote Bosso again for emphasis:


So yes, for people who do not care for frequencies down to the single digits, ported, PR, etc. subs could work; however for people looking for the best SQ and SPL down to the lowest frequencies, sealed is the way to go.

That's pretty damn funny! You are taking a DIY sub with a $1300 driver which then needs to be built and is driven by a $1000 3600w amp, and then you are comparing it with a $1700 ready-made, premium finished, fully warranteed sub. Notice that the little ol' PB13 with a mere 750 watts and a 13.5" driver manages the same output as the TC at 20hz.

When you comapare the two TC DIY subs, notice that you would need about two of the sealed subs to match the output of the one with the passive radiators.

I'm not here to argue about any one design being superior to another. I am here to say that your blanket statement, "It is clear that ported, PR, etc. subs just don't cut it.", just doesn't cut it. Different sub designs obviously all have their strengths and weakness. Any one design is not necessarily the best solution for everyone. If you can't see that, then your mind is closed.
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post #27 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 12:27 PM
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Well, how important is the ability to play 10 hz and below frequencies in an ht setup??? I mean in terms of why we have HTs to begin with....namely: watching the latest BR? I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm a little interested having just invested in a couple of large eD ported subs during the past couple of months. I've seen how steep ported subs roll off past their tuning freqs...but how much of an impact is that to our home movie experience?? ?
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post #28 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Well, how important is the ability to play 10 hz and below frequencies in an ht setup??? I mean in terms of why we have HTs to begin with....namely: watching the latest BR? I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm a little interested having just invested in a couple of large eD ported subs during the past couple of months. I've seen how steep ported subs roll off past their tuning freqs...but how much of an impact is that to our home movie experience?? ?

Well I guess that depends on your real question. Are you asking if people care about sub 20Hz frequencies or if there are movies out there with such low frequency content.

If your real question is the latter I direct you to the sticky thread: The Master List of DVD, HD-DVD & Blu-ray Movies with BASS Thread...With WaterFalls

Personally, I'd prefer to have a high SPL sub, but never at the cost of SQ. But this is highly subjective and everyone has their own opinions. I just came up with an arbitrary threshold of <15% THD. Anything over that I consider unusable. Group delay, I would like to keep at 1/2cycle or less. Finally spectral decay, I would obviously like as minimal as possible as well. As for how I picked these thresholds, it's simply arbitrary. If there is a sub out there that can perform at these levels, why would anyone pick one that doesn't? Obviously cost is a major factor, but isn't it always? People should pick the best sub they can afford. My point wasn't to say that anything besides a sealed sub can't be used, but merely to state that there are limitations to their designs and people should be aware of them. In my other thread of Rythmik vs Submersive, my main concern was SQ and was thinking of a dual opposed Rythmik, but somewhere along the line, someone suggested a PR design. That only tells me one thing, that some people are not aware of these limitations that Bosso has explained in great length.
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post #29 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Well, how important is the ability to play 10 hz and below frequencies in an ht setup??? I mean in terms of why we have HTs to begin with....namely: watching the latest BR? I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm a little interested having just invested in a couple of large eD ported subs during the past couple of months. I've seen how steep ported subs roll off past their tuning freqs...but how much of an impact is that to our home movie experience?? ?

The question is, how important is it to you and are you willing to do what is necessary to play <10hz at a level that is high enough to make it worthwhile? There is content down there in some movies. It's debatable as to how much it adds to the HT experience, but there is no doubt that if you can reproduce those frequencies at a useable level, it's better than if you can't. These are not frequecnies that you will hear, but you may very well feel if you can play them well. As far as replacing your pair of large ported eD's, you would most likely need twice as many sealed subs to get the same average output. Therein lies the tradeoff.
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post #30 of 689 Old 07-29-2010, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That's pretty damn funny! You are taking a DIY sub with a $1300 driver which then needs to be built and is driven by a $1000 3600w amp, and then you are comparing it with a $1700 ready-made, premium finished, fully warranteed sub. Notice that the little ol' PB13 with a mere 750 watts and a 13.5" driver manages the same output as the TC at 20hz.

When you comapare the two TC DIY subs, notice that you would need about two of the sealed subs to match the output of the one with the passive radiators.

I'm not here to argue about any one design being superior to another. I am here to say that your blanket statement, "It is clear that ported, PR, etc. subs just don't cut it.", just doesn't cut it. Different sub designs obviously all have their strengths and weakness. Any one design is not necessarily the best solution for everyone. If you can't see that, then your mind is closed.

Yes, I know there are strengths and weaknesses, but my point was that some people look at the graphs at the 20Hz point and say "there are no weaknesses in those PR designs" without looking at the 10Hz point. I don't know why or when people started making the 20Hz point so important, but I personally look at the 10Hz region. What's the point of using a killer sub if it can't play content below 20Hz? Again, this is just my opinion. I don't limit my range to 20Hz when there are movies out there with sub 20Hz content. Now if someone somewhere somehow tuned a PR sub to 5Hz, it would be worth talking about. But until then, if there is content with frequency down to the single digits in movies, I expect my sub to be able to reproduce those frequencies accurately at a reasonable SPL.
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