Lava subs - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1392 Old 10-19-2010, 02:37 PM
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The user had a onkyo 607,which has no room correction for the sub. Besides the subwoofer there might be room issues going on.
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post #362 of 1392 Old 10-19-2010, 09:38 PM
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"Anyways, I'm done with all the scientific crap. Lava has a very good product on their hand. Counsil was right with his first assessment. If someone is looking for an in-expensive yet quality sub that will make most home-theater geeks giddy with hard hitting, solid LFE (including moi), the the Lava 12 will make them very happy. If some douche wants to put this sub up against dual ultras and then crush it because it dosent hit 110db at 10hz, well then he'll be an even bigger douche."

what a wonderful post.

in a single post you manage to dismiss all scientific inquiry at the "audio video science forum" beyond your wimpy measures aka farting around and...

...you make bold subjective proclamations with respect to your subwoofer...

...and you refer to folks who enjoy home theater as "geeks"...

...and you call anybody who may suggest a better sub a douche even before you see what they may have to offer.

for this...i'm afraid no gold star for you. ;-)

it is okay though...the faster you change your tune, the quicker we will change our dance. ;-)

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post #363 of 1392 Old 10-19-2010, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Anyways, I'm done with all the scientific crap. Lava has a very good product on their hand. Counsil was right with his first assessment. If someone is looking for an in-expensive yet quality sub that will make most home-theater geeks giddy with hard hitting, solid LFE (including moi), the the Lava 12 will make them very happy. If some douche wants to put this sub up against dual ultras and then crush it because it dosent hit 110db at 10hz, well then he'll be an even bigger douche."

what a wonderful post.

in a single post you manage to dismiss all scientific inquiry at the "audio video science forum" beyond your wimpy measures aka farting around and...

...you make bold subjective proclamations with respect to your subwoofer...

...and you refer to folks who enjoy home theater as "geeks"...

...and you call anybody who may suggest a better sub a douche even before you see what they may have to offer.

for this...i'm afraid no gold star for you. ;-)

it is okay though...the faster you change your tune, the quicker we will change our dance. ;-)

If you take everything he said out of context, then yes, your version sounds a little more degrading and obnoxious. However, in context, he's made a very reasonable and humorous statement.
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post #364 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Anyways, I'm done with all the scientific crap. Lava has a very good product on their hand. Counsil was right with his first assessment. If someone is looking for an in-expensive yet quality sub that will make most home-theater geeks giddy with hard hitting, solid LFE (including moi), the the Lava 12 will make them very happy. If some douche wants to put this sub up against dual ultras and then crush it because it dosent hit 110db at 10hz, well then he'll be an even bigger douche."

what a wonderful post.

in a single post you manage to dismiss all scientific inquiry at the "audio video science forum" beyond your wimpy measures aka farting around and...

...you make bold subjective proclamations with respect to your subwoofer...

...and you refer to folks who enjoy home theater as "geeks"...

...and you call anybody who may suggest a better sub a douche even before you see what they may have to offer.

for this...i'm afraid no gold star for you. ;-)

it is okay though...the faster you change your tune, the quicker we will change our dance. ;-)

Damn I was hoping for the gold star. Vraxoin was correct regarding the context issue. I fall squarely into the HT geek category (which is why I referenced myself) but as one without all the scientific data to back stuff up except for my ears. And as far as my douche calling out, your point is not the case. It totally would be the case if someone compared this with the graphs and charts and Hz figures of an Ultra, which I clearly stated.
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post #365 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ratm View Post

It totally would be the case if someone compared this with the graphs and charts and Hz figures of an Ultra, which I clearly stated.

But the Ultra is in a completely different price range. If you are willing to spend the cost of an Ultra on a subwoofer then why look at something substantially less.

How about we actually compare the LAVA subwoofers to other woofers in its budget class. a Bic PL-200 vs LAVA LP12. Comparing a Lava sub to an SVS sub is like comparing an Infinity to a Bentley
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post #366 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

But the Ultra is in a completely different price range. If you are willing to spend the cost of an Ultra on a subwoofer then why look at something substantially less.

How about we actually compare the LAVA subwoofers to other woofers in its budget class. a Bic PL-200 vs LAVA LP12. Comparing a Lava sub to an SVS sub is like comparing an Infinity to a Bentley

I totally agree w you. My point was that someone one here will inevitably bash Lava subs (which is fine if they choose) after trying to compare them to something way out of their range/class.
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post #367 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 10:18 AM
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No one is bashing the sub.

The issue is everyone's point of reference, which is what I was alluding to when I asked "what other subs have you compared it to?"

Then, when measurements were asked for, some posted that they don't care about measurements and that they care more about experience. Fine.

So along those same lines....the Lava sub is great compared to what?

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post #368 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The SVS 12 Plus driver alone if sold retail would probably cost as much as the entire Lava sub.


Yeah, I know, that is why I pointed out the huge difference in price. But I still think there is a point to be made that largely takes price out of the equation.

Way back before Ed Mullen worked for SVS, he did a comprehensive test of the SVS PB-10 NSD and these were his findings:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

Ground plane measured 19-150 hz +/- 1 db. At the time the price was $429. So it is not all about the cost of the driver, amp, enclosure.

LAVA didn't design for flat FR and in fact adds the 13 db of boost at 40 Hz with the line-level inputs.
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post #369 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 10:32 AM
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How about we all wait until we see some actual data and graph done before we continue to speculate

Lava was kind enough to send a unit to the Audioholics crew so lets them do the speaking unless you have actually tested the Lava subwoofer yourself
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post #370 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

I totally agree w you. My point was that someone one here will inevitably bash Lava subs (which is fine if they choose) after trying to compare them to something way out of their range/class.

Preemptive defensiveness. That's a new approach.
It's actually a good thing to compare budget subs to their more expensive brethren. It allows prospects to get a sense of what a dollar can buy you. It cost a lot to tweak out a few more DB, get a little less distortion, or get usable volume out of another octave lower. These comparisons let you see what you get for a few hundred bucks versus what $1K, $2K, or more will get. It's not a fair fight, but it is a fair $/$ evaluation. Of course, the inevitable comparison to other budget subs will surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

How about we all wait until we see some actual data and graph done before we continue to speculate

Lava was kind enough to send a unit to the Audioholics crew so lets them do the speaking unless you have actually tested the Lava subwoofer yourself

Until then, we can speculate and dissect what we know for now. When the actual GP measurements do come out, we will have differing opinions about them as well.

Randy
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post #371 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 02:19 PM
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I ordered a LSP12 and it will be delivered tomorrow. The sub is the last piece of my old system to be replaced. It will be replacing a $99 10" Sony from Circuit City, it doesn't get much more budget than that. I'll let you know my thoughts after I've had some time with it.
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post #372 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by lavasubs View Post


Peggy is back

I have attached the graph that I am hoping answers your question. As for the overall sound this boost causes I am told that the boost feature was added to help the whole system sound better at the the low frequency.





The 13db boost is on the lowpass only and not on the LFE.



Yes, I believe you did put in in better words.

I do want to clarify one thing. It has never been our intention with this line of subs to try and compete with the $1000 subwoofers. We believe there are a lot of people that are not able to spend or are not looking to spend $1000 per subwoofer. We would like them to be able to get a good product to fit their budget and we believe we do just that with this subwoofer.

Hmmm. What is the port tuning freq?

From my understanding a ported sub benefits from boost at the tuning freq.
And this allows for a flatter ground plane response that say a sealed sub which will tend to start rolling off slowly in the 30s or 40s?

So I'm trying to understand why a ported sub would need such a boost right in the middle of the LFE band. Not bashing the design, I am still learning much about sub design and measurement myself.

For ex if the port tuning was low (ie 20hz) and had a narrow dip (but a deep one) at 40 hz... I could see eqing that dip out. Absolutely.
If it is tuned high, I could understand the rolloff but boosting below the tune would be a bad idea. Or at least that is what I have been taught.

Just trying to understand the design, I am sure there are many popular subs that have a good bit of eqing one might not expect.

Jeremy
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post #373 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 08:09 PM
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edgebsl, the LFE band is the red line. The boost is for the line inputs and should be ignored for normal LFE co-ax usage.

I really like this forum and don't post very often on any forum even though I read many frequently. I'm very much looking forward to my LSP12 delivery tomorrow.

I am going to do a full system report eventually, as most of my purchases have been made from avsforum reviews.

Quick overview: Pioneer 509S, 4 speakers from my parents Celestion HTIB and a Bose center, Bose center fell off TV and broke. 3 years later a Celestion speaker went bad, looked up speakers on craigslist, someone was selling HTD Level 3 bookshelf speakers for $100(for both), sounded so much better and I was missing the center so I bought a HTD center, awesome, better than the Bose(same price too). I was planning to buy the Level 3 towers but newegg had such a deal on the Polk Monitor 70's I got them instead. Then bought the VSX-32, which was a supreme upgrade to the 509S.

Speakers were set to Large. The Polk 70's have more bass than this POS 10" Sony sub.

I did the MCACC yesterday with my fronts set to small and I didn't even get to the "On my signal, Unleash Hell" part of Gladiator because it just hits harder with them set to Large. Tomorrow I am expecting to have an audio boner during that scene. I'm calibrated for a direct replacement of the $99 10" Sony sub and the Lava in my room. I seriously doubt I'll be sending it back from what I read on the graph.

For you people debating $1000+ subs against a < $300 one, shut up. Buy your 1.15X better one for 4X as much, I'm trying to get bang for my buck and I've done well so far. This is before I have heard it though. Tomorrow I may have a scathing review, but I seriously doubt it.

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post #374 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by drognan View Post

edgebsl, the LFE band is the red line. The boost is for the line inputs and should be ignored for normal LFE co-ax usage.

I really like this forum and don't post very often on any forum even though I read many frequently. I'm very much looking forward to my LSP12 delivery tomorrow.

I am going to do a full system report eventually, as most of my purchases have been made from avsforum reviews.

Quick overview: Pioneer 509S, 4 speakers from my parents Celestion HTIB and a Bose center, Bose center fell off TV and broke. 3 years later a Celestion speaker went bad, looked up speakers on craigslist, someone was selling HTD Level 3 bookshelf speakers for $100(for both), sounded so much better and I was missing the center so I bought a HTD center, awesome, better than the Bose(same price too). I was planning to buy the Level 3 towers but newegg had such a deal on the Polk Monitor 70's I got them instead. Then bought the VSX-32, which was a supreme upgrade to the 509S.

Speakers were set to Large. The Polk 70's have more bass than this POS 10" Sony sub.

I did the MCACC yesterday with my fronts set to small and I didn't even get to the "On my signal, Unleash Hell" part of Gladiator because it just hits harder with them set to Large. Tomorrow I am expecting to have an audio boner during that scene. I'm calibrated for a direct replacement of the $99 10" Sony sub and the Lava in my room. I seriously doubt I'll be sending it back from what I read on the graph.

For you people debating $1000+ subs against a < $300 one, shut up. Buy your 1.15X better one for 4X as much, I'm trying to get bang for my buck and I've done well so far. This is before I have heard it though. Tomorrow I may have a scathing review, but I seriously doubt it.

-Drognan
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Sir.... You are slowly going through the sickness we all have. You just happen to be a few steps behind but you'll catch up. Enjoy your system for now... Upgrade when you are ready.
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post #375 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 08:52 PM
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I did the MCACC yesterday with my fronts set to small and I didn't even get to the "On my signal, Unleash Hell" part of Gladiator because it just hits harder with them set to Large. Tomorrow I am expecting to have an audio boner during that scene. I'm calibrated for a direct replacement of the $99 10" Sony sub and the Lava in my room. I seriously doubt I'll be sending it back from what I read on the graph.

____________________________________________________________ _____
I may be going out on a limb here, but I think you're probably gonna like the Lava more than the Sony. Looking forward to the review but feel free to leave any "audio boner" references out of it.

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
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post #376 of 1392 Old 10-20-2010, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by drognan View Post

For you people debating $1000+ subs against a < $300 one, shut up. Buy your 1.15X better one for 4X as much, I'm trying to get bang for my buck and I've done well so far. This is before I have heard it though. Tomorrow I may have a scathing review, but I seriously doubt it.

-Drognan
VSAT Engineer

If you're incapable of understanding that more expensive subs can deliver 'bang for your buck', then quit reading this forum. There's more to the b4b equation than just a cheap price. If you only want some boom to go with your Franken system, then why spend $300. You could get something for under $100. Then you'll spend 1/3 for 1.15X less.

Randy
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post #377 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

If you're incapable of understanding that more expensive subs can deliver 'bang for your buck', then quit reading this forum. There's more to the b4b equation than just a cheap price. If you only want some boom to go with your Franken system, then why spend $300. You could get something for under $100. Then you'll spend 1/3 for 1.15X less.

LMAO @ his franken system
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post #378 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

If you're incapable of understanding that more expensive subs can deliver 'bang for your buck', then quit reading this forum. There's more to the b4b equation than just a cheap price. If you only want some boom to go with your Franken system, then why spend $300. You could get something for under $100. Then you'll spend 1/3 for 1.15X less.

I think part of the problem with his theory is that he is assuming that a 4x's more expense sub is only 1.15x's better. That could not be further from the truth. I have no problem with people being happy with a budget sub but please, until you've heard one of the powerhouses mentioned on this forum....do not insult us by trying to compare a 12" cheapie to them. They are not in the same class, same ballpark, or hell...not even the same sport.

I have not heard the 12" Lava sub (but I'd be happy to review one honestly if they sent me one to test) but I would assume it to be a boomy little box along the lines of cheap subs sold at Best Buy etc. That's fine for most people honestly, and I'm ok with that...however, more and more people are graduating to designing outstanding home theaters with very high quality products. I personally have more $$$ than I'd care to think about invested in my theater, however, it gives me joy everyday that I get to use it.

If you are happy with what you have, or will be happy with an inexpensive 12" sub with only a little power then great. I think you guys will all one day find it lacking though (based on my previous experience with inexpensive 12" subs that I have owned) and eventually want more.

IF, and I say IF you ever get to experience truly deep bass in someones theater, I think you'll realize just what you are missing. They say ignorance is bliss...and I guess it's true. A subs job, IMHO, is to not only shake the walls but to create EMOTION in your movies and music. When the depth is not there, I find that the excitement and dynamics are also gone. Just my .02
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post #379 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

I have not heard the 12" Lava sub (but I'd be happy to review one honestly if they sent me one to test) but I would assume it to be a boomy little box along the lines of cheap subs sold at Best Buy etc.

Why do you assume this? Counsil would have certainly noticed if this was the case when he directly compared it to one of his Empires. Except for the, now accounted for, +13dB@40Hz, there's nothing which points to this being a "boomy little box along the lines of cheap subs sold at Best Buy". In fact, it would most likely be a benefit to the audio world at large if there were a decent, well priced sub like the Lava at BB. It might make other manufacturers put some effort into their entry-level products much like Pioneer has done with their new ultra-budget speaker line.
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post #380 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

I have no problem with people being happy with a budget sub but please, until you've heard one of the powerhouses mentioned on this forum....do not insult us by trying to compare a 12" cheapie to them. They are not in the same class, same ballpark, or hell...not even the same sport.

I have not heard the 12" Lava sub (but I'd be happy to review one honestly if they sent me one to test) but I would assume it to be a boomy little box along the lines of cheap subs sold at Best Buy etc. That's fine for most people honestly, and I'm ok with that

If you are happy with what you have, or will be happy with an inexpensive 12" sub with only a little power then great.

IF, and I say IF you ever get to experience truly deep bass in someones theater, I think you'll realize just what you are missing.

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post #381 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 09:15 AM
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Elitism - is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who supposedly form an elite a select group of people with intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so

Never assume - for it makse an ass out of you and me

hmm..well I don't think i'm being Elitist at all..but to each their own i guess. as for the Lava 12" being a good sub...unless they send me one to review i'll never know because I have no desire to buy a 12" 250watt sub. that would just be lost in my room.
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post #382 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

hmm..well I don't think i'm being Elitist at all..but to each their own i guess. as for the Lava 12" being a good sub...unless they send me one to review i'll never know because I have no desire to buy a 12" 250watt sub. that would just be lost in my room.

Why would they send you one to review? You somehow seem to want to make that into a negative, yet have no interest in the product and (correct me if this is inaccurate) aren't a professional reviewer.

The question here isn't whether the Lava sub is the quintessential sub for large rooms, but rather, does it perform adequately or better within it's price range.

Time to move on.
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post #383 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

I think part of the problem with his theory is that he is assuming that a 4x's more expense sub is only 1.15x's better. That could not be further from the truth. I have no problem with people being happy with a budget sub but please, until you've heard one of the powerhouses mentioned on this forum....do not insult us by trying to compare a 12" cheapie to them. They are not in the same class, same ballpark, or hell...not even the same sport.

The issue here is weather you should or shouldn't compare a budget sub to more expensive and capable subs. I believe you should. It will help those that have only heard budget subs understand the difference and why the more expensive subs are more expensive. It's not a matter of spending a lot more money for a small incremental improvement in output, distortion, range, or aesthetics. It's about spending what's needed to achieve your goals. If you just want to add some lower end sound and a little tactile feel to your system and you don't care about achieving all the benefits that higher quality subs provide, then get the budget sub. If you just don't have the money to get the better subs, then get the budget sub. But, if you don't know what a quality, highly capable, $1K or $2K sub will give you, then you will believe you have a great sub at $200 or $300 and will never understand why people spend more.

That's my $.02 adjusted for inflation.

Randy
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post #384 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Why would they send you one to review? You somehow seem to want to make that into a negative, yet have no interest in the product and (correct me if this is inaccurate) aren't a professional reviewer.

The question here isn't whether the Lava sub is the quintessential sub for large rooms, but rather, does it perform adequately or better within it's price range.

Time to move on.

I certainly wouldn't expect them to send me one, but I don't think that a "professional" reviewer is going to have any better opinion than an "end user" regardless of who's doing the reviewing. In fact, I'd think it would be the end users opinions that should matter more than some magazine writer who's paycheck depends on a positive review of the product to keep them advertising in said magazine.
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post #385 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

hmm..well I don't think i'm being Elitist at all..but to each their own i guess. as for the Lava 12" being a good sub...unless they send me one to review i'll never know because I have no desire to buy a 12" 250watt sub. that would just be lost in my room.

Well, the chances of it being a good sub become greater as more people report their satisfaction with it. Your evaluation of the sub would simply be another vote. You may have a tin-ear for all anyone knows.
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post #386 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 10:28 AM
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IMO, the Lava LSP12 is far better than the Polk, Sony, and Klipsch subs that are sold at Best Buy (that are roughly the same price or more than the LSP12). I have listened/owned most of them so I know.

The LSP12 doesn't sound like a rolled up newspaper hitting an empty 5-gallon bucket at spirited SPLs like most of the Best Buy subs do. The LSP12 also goes louder.

The LSP12 is no where near as powerful as an Epik Empire, and doesn't even scratch the surface of how low an SVS Ultra can go.

IMHO, the LSP12 (~$300) is a good sub for the price. No, it's not an SVS PB12-NSD ($699), but the Lava is half the price of the SVS. According to Illka, the PB12-NSD had a maximum output of 105dB at 30Hz and 108dB at 40Hz. If my memory serves me correctly, I only achieved peaks of 105dB (uncorrected) during the WOTW pod emergence scenes.

That said, even dual LSP12s will probably not get you the the SPLs at 20Hz (even with EQ) that a single PB12-NSD can achieve.

Just some random thoughts on my part.

LSP12...



PB12-NSD...


LL

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post #387 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

hmm..well I don't think i'm being Elitist at all..but to each their own i guess. as for the Lava 12" being a good sub...unless they send me one to review i'll never know because I have no desire to buy a 12" 250watt sub. that would just be lost in my room.

Can you spend a month with our $340? If so buy one yourself. Lava allows free 30day in home trial why not take them up on it instead of expecting for a freebie. Give us your end user opinion.

Unless you are willing to try the Lava subwoofer yourself to bash it then there is no reason why you should go around acting like your **** don't sink. What is good enough for one person might be horrible to another. Not everyone has an unlimited budget to spend on speakers so having options for different budgets is nice. It creates competition in the market place. And consumers are the end game benefactors.
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post #388 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 02:27 PM
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the problem here is that a nice bang for the buck sub does not provide the same performance level of some of the options that cost more money.

if this sub provides enough performance, then that is cool.

if you have more money and want more performance, there are better options.

if you really want to "cheat" the system, build a giant horn. the cost there is in the large enclosure and build complexity. have a search on bill fitzmaurice and tuba home theater.

talk about douche and happy endings doesn't really belong here.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #389 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 06:47 PM
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Sorry guys, I won't post drunk anymore.

The sub arrived today, there was a hole in the box like someone tried to make a handle but luckily the sub was undamaged. It made a lot of stops, the most I've seen on a UPS tracker.

I hooked it up and turned up the volume. Had terrible buzzing sound, so I went out and got a ground loop isolator and that cleared up the buzzing. I put on a few movies, I wasn't super impressed, then I put on some rap and it pounded very hard. I think the movie problem is probably receiver configuration, especially since I configured it last night.

I had some spare time at work today and found Room EQ Wizard. I've never used it before so cut me some slack if it's not right(I can do it again if you want to see something else). Setup was Alienware HDMI to VSX-32(x-over at 200) and USB mic. Gold line is the Sony (SA-W2500), the rest are the LSP12:
Attachment 189021

I'll need some more time with it but I think I like it a lot.

Again, sorry about the previous drunk post.

-Drognan
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post #390 of 1392 Old 10-21-2010, 07:14 PM
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Looks like it starts rolling off at 60Hz in your room. That's not good. I'm not very good with REW, it could be actually be something else. Can someone who has a good handle on REW chime in here?

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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