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post #211 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 05:28 PM
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Well I have my sub sitting to the left of the tv in between my definitive speakers, and I have not noticed any boominess. Probably wouldn't feel it neither due to the butt kickers. For the price range I don't feel I could have done better.
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post #212 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Great. Which is why earlier I asked if there were any measurements, so to see if that peak was there.

I know some in this thread poo poo on measurements, when some of us would like them to get a better understanding on what the sub is doing.

Like mentioned earlier, I am interested in Lavasubs' response to the question.

Would the boominess be any more noticeable if the sub (any sub for that matter) were placed in a corner of a room?
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post #213 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smjp View Post

Well I have my sub sitting to the left of the tv in between my definitive speakers, and I have not noticed any boominess. Probably wouldn't feel it neither due to the butt kickers. For the price range I don't feel I could have done better.

What other subs have you had?

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Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Would the boominess be any more noticeable if the sub (any sub for that matter) were placed in a corner of a room?

Possibly.

Like I said, if there are measurements, then we would know more about what is being heard.

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post #214 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 05:55 PM
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If the Lava rep fails to respond to a simple question as to why a 13dB boost at 40Hz, what else might they be hiding from???




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post #215 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Would the boominess be any more noticeable if the sub (any sub for that matter) were placed in a corner of a room?

A 13dB boost at 40Hz should be easily noticeable with a simple tone sweep, unless you just happen to have a null at 40Hz. I'm curious about this part of the spec also. As mentioned earlier, it just doesn't make any sense to have a non-defeatable 13dB boost simply from a dynamic headroom perspective. Descriptions of the sub's tonal quality and output capabilities tells me that this spec'd boost doesn't exist.
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post #216 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

I worry about everything, just kidding!~!~I am only doing this room one time, no upgrades, well maybe some cables and such, and when this tubey breaks in, no more amps, finally be done with that.

Why then, have I been recommended unported for music???

I have been looking into small diy sub kits for fun. The room is very small 11x12x9 feet.

Got any ideas on that???

Thanks

And, I am considering 2 of the lava 12s for the theater. Or either the Rythmik 15. The room is large, so I may need two.


I'm in a similar situation-looking for a smaller/tighter sub for 2-channel music in a small 12 x 12 room, with Monitor Audio towers & a Pioneer 1019. Based on specs, budget, and the ported vs. sealed debate, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't be considering a Lava sub?

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post #217 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

If the Lava rep fails to respond to a simple question as to why a 13dB boost at 40Hz, what else might they be hiding from???

After speaking with them on the phone a few times, I don't get the impression that they're the hiding type.

On this forum and others, a few errata (relatively minor, IMO) have surfaced regarding the web site, but that isn't necessarily a reflection of the product. Along similar lines, there are plenty examples of establishments that are very competent at marketing, but not necessarily at making products that are universally respected.

What's in question is a specification on their web site that has not been verified by instrumented testing, nor reported empirically by those who have experience with the product.

If we take the presentation of the number literally, then we would interpret that the boost applies to the low-level input and not the LFE input, since it only appears on the line item for "Lowpass". For those who might use this sub from the LFE output of their receiver for a HT setup, does it really matter what is happening on the low-level inputs? Pure speculation: this may explain why none of the current owners have reported observing the effect of the boost.

If, on the other hand, we don't take it literally, then perhaps it would be productive to remain open minded for more independent verification in your preferred flavor: stats or empricial observation.

Even if this boost does in fact exist and we get an explanation for it, it will likely not be the end of the story. Those who insist on measurements will still pine for them, and those who don't will still just run what they brung and make decisions regardless of the numbers.

My .02.

Regards,
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post #218 of 1392 Old 10-13-2010, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

I'm in a similar situation-looking for a smaller/tighter sub for 2-channel music in a small 12 x 12 room, with Monitor Audio towers & a Pioneer 1019. Based on specs, budget, and the ported vs. sealed debate, are there any compelling reasons why I shouldn't be considering a Lava sub?

Regards,

Peggy

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post #219 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonfan View Post

After speaking with them on the phone a few times, I don't get the impression that they're the hiding type.

On this forum and others, a few errata (relatively minor, IMO) have surfaced regarding the web site, but that isn't necessarily a reflection of the product. Along similar lines, there are plenty examples of establishments that are very competent at marketing, but not necessarily at making products that are universally respected.

What's in question is a specification on their web site that has not been verified by instrumented testing, nor reported empirically by those who have experience with the product.

If we take the presentation of the number literally, then we would interpret that the boost applies to the low-level input and not the LFE input, since it only appears on the line item for "Lowpass". For those who might use this sub from the LFE output of their receiver for a HT setup, does it really matter what is happening on the low-level inputs? Pure speculation: this may explain why none of the current owners have reported observing the effect of the boost.

If, on the other hand, we don't take it literally, then perhaps it would be productive to remain open minded for more independent verification in your preferred flavor: stats or empricial observation.

Even if this boost does in fact exist and we get an explanation for it, it will likely not be the end of the story. Those who insist on measurements will still pine for them, and those who don't will still just run what they brung and make decisions regardless of the numbers.

Like I have mentioned to ratm, I understand that you don't care, and I respect that.

But what is wrong with wanting to know? Can you respect the fact that at least a few of us have asked the question and would like to know?

We have asked when it comes into play, LFE input or lowpass?

You, yourself, are speculating, while some of us have asked and are waiting for definitive answers from the representative. What is more proper? I want to avoid speculation.

Do you care to also speculate why our questions have not been answered?

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post #220 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

A 13dB boost at 40Hz should be easily noticeable with a simple tone sweep, unless you just happen to have a null at 40Hz. I'm curious about this part of the spec also. As mentioned earlier, it just doesn't make any sense to have a non-defeatable 13dB boost simply from a dynamic headroom perspective. Descriptions of the sub's tonal quality and output capabilities tells me that this spec'd boost doesn't exist.

I absolutely agree...which is why I asked and looking for a definitive answer.

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post #221 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 07:41 AM
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Being that Lava is a new company looking to get into a very competetive ID sub market, you would think the rep on this thread would be more than willing to answer why a 40hz boost. That seems like a very easy question to answer I would think. Its not like he is being as to describe how the subwoofers are being designed and why. It just seems like he is avoiding giving an specific answers to things. why?




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post #222 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Like I have mentioned to ratm, I understand that you don't care, and I respect that.

But what is wrong with wanting to know? Can you respect the fact that at least a few of us have asked the question and would like to know?

We have asked when it comes into play, LFE input or lowpass?

You, yourself, are speculating, while some of us have asked and are waiting for definitive answers from the representative. What is more proper? I want to avoid speculation.

Do you care to also speculate why our questions have not been answered?

The speculation you refer to in my post is far from the point I was trying to make.

I believe our viewpoints are actually not in conflict. In saying that you believe a frequency sweep will satisfy those who need to know whether this boost exists, you're in the camp that wants the numbers--and I respect that. The question I would ask is, what would you place more credence on: a fellow member or independent reviewer posting their results of doing said sweep, or Lava's explanation of why it was built in (or why the web site says it is)? More to the point, even if you had an answer from Lava, would you still seek independent verification?

This is actually what I was trying to convey. If you consider my post as a whole, hopefully I was successful in doing so.

Anyhow, I am expecting to receive an LSP12 on Friday. I will run a low frequency sweep from both the line level and LFE inputs using my DVE disc. I lack the facilities to produce detailed results (graphs etc.) but I will report my observations--and if the gain is truly 13db, I should have no problem detecting it. I will disable Audessy, do my best to isolate the sub from room gain, make my observations from different positions in the room, and A/B it with my Dayton Hsu 10. If you have any other suggestions, I'm open to them.

For the record, I do care. I'm not firmly in either camp. The people at Lava have thus far been a pleasure to do business with, and their current offering will let me decide whether their product is as strong as their service.

Thanks and regards,
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post #223 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Being that Lava is a new company looking to get into a very competetive ID sub market, you would think the rep on this thread would be more than willing to answer why a 40hz boost. That seems like a very easy question to answer I would think. Its not like he is being as to describe how the subwoofers are being designed and why. It just seems like he is avoiding giving an specific answers to things. why?

Maybe he is just too busy selling the stacks and stacks of subs shown in his video. Maybe soon he will have time to respond to 40hz question.

I would like to hear the explanation as well.

I bought some small speakers with an amazing stats and a sound that is unbelievable at their pricepoint, but because they were inexpensive and small, they didn't get a fair chance, but a particular person reviewed/compared them with many other bookshelves/monitors and preferred these little speaker's sound over the Sierra 1s and other speakers....and that got my attention since the Sierras were more than 6 times their price, which are good speakers and have a large following.

My point is that the forums are powerful educational tools, many times used for or against and generally to find that perfect product that suites our needs both size and price.

I am one who is VERY THANKFUL for AVS and other forums for the incredible reading offered here. This information has definitely helped me make intelligent decisions on all of my audio/video equipment. Since, my knowledge is very limited, I need help.

I watched the video of 'About Us' on the Lava website. And, Eric seems/sounds like an honest person and I believe/hope he will responds soon.

Thanks!
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post #224 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by harmonfan View Post

the speculation you refer to in my post is far from the point i was trying to make.

I believe our viewpoints are actually not in conflict. In saying that you believe a frequency sweep will satisfy those who need to know whether this boost exists, you're in the camp that wants the numbers--and i respect that. The question i would ask is, what would you place more credence on: A fellow member or independent reviewer posting their results of doing said sweep, or lava's explanation of why it was built in (or why the web site says it is)? More to the point, even if you had an answer from lava, would you still seek independent verification?

This is actually what i was trying to convey. If you consider my post as a whole, hopefully i was successful in doing so.

Anyhow, i am expecting to receive an lsp12 on friday. I will run a low frequency sweep from both the line level and lfe inputs using my dve disc. I lack the facilities to produce detailed results (graphs etc.) but i will report my observations--and if the gain is truly 13db, i should have no problem detecting it. I will disable audessy, do my best to isolate the sub from room gain, make my observations from different positions in the room, and a/b it with my dayton hsu 10. If you have any other suggestions, i'm open to them.

For the record, i do care. I'm not firmly in either camp. The people at lava have thus far been a pleasure to do business with, and their current offering will let me decide whether their product is as strong as their service.

Thanks and regards,
harmonfan

+1 and....looking forward to your review!!!
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post #225 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Being that Lava is a new company looking to get into a very competetive ID sub market, you would think the rep on this thread would be more than willing to answer why a 40hz boost. That seems like a very easy question to answer I would think. Its not like he is being as to describe how the subwoofers are being designed and why. It just seems like he is avoiding giving an specific answers to things. why?

Or he could know nothing about subwoofers in general and be the marketing guy... I was guilty of that in a business I worked for. You can't expect a person to know everything about a product

Seriously Gov they offer a free 30day in home trial how about you get off your butt prove you actually care about what you are complaining about and test it out for yourself. Cause in my business I found that those that made a big stink about the spec sheet never even gave the product a try. Lava offers a 30day in home free trial I suggest you take them up on it and then report back to us. All you're losing if the potential interest you could have made on $300 in 30days which isn't much

All you need is a test tone disc and dB meter. In fact there is a website I can provide for you that has everything you could possibly need just download the mp3's and burn a cd
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post #226 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by harmonfan View Post

The speculation you refer to in my post is far from the point I was trying to make.

I believe our viewpoints are actually not in conflict. In saying that you believe a frequency sweep will satisfy those who need to know whether this boost exists, you're in the camp that wants the numbers--and I respect that. The question I would ask is, what would you place more credence on: a fellow member or independent reviewer posting their results of doing said sweep, or Lava's explanation of why it was built in (or why the web site says it is)? More to the point, even if you had an answer from Lava, would you still seek independent verification?

This is actually what I was trying to convey. If you consider my post as a whole, hopefully I was successful in doing so.

Anyhow, I am expecting to receive an LSP12 on Friday. I will run a low frequency sweep from both the line level and LFE inputs using my DVE disc. I lack the facilities to produce detailed results (graphs etc.) but I will report my observations--and if the gain is truly 13db, I should have no problem detecting it. I will disable Audessy, do my best to isolate the sub from room gain, make my observations from different positions in the room, and A/B it with my Dayton Hsu 10. If you have any other suggestions, I'm open to them.

For the record, I do care. I'm not firmly in either camp. The people at Lava have thus far been a pleasure to do business with, and their current offering will let me decide whether their product is as strong as their service.

First, I am not in the "numbers" camp, but I do believe that measurements(a whole host of them) is a good tool to gauge what a subwoofer is doing. Would I take a fellow member's or independent reviewers word? Sure, but that person would need to have to have some established credibility.

As for independent verification....sure, that is always best, but at this point all I have asked is why the boost is there and on what inputs it functions.

For your measurements, do a close mic measurement, that will reduce a lot of the room influences. No offense, it would also be more credible if someone that is more established here at AVS did some measuring too. That is why I was hoping counsil followed through with his measuring.

BTW, the questions about the boost are fairly simple, and looking at Lavasubs profile, they have logged into this site again this morning. If he is just a marketing guy, a simple "I am just a marketing guy, but I will get the answer for you" is what I would consider great service. Although I have not called their phone number, I would hope that their customer service line was also somewhat technically inclined as well.

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post #227 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

Cause in my business I found that those that made a big stink about the spec sheet never even gave the product a try. Lava offers a 30day in home free trial I suggest you take them up on it and then report back to us. All you're losing if the potential interest you could have made on $300 in 30days which isn't much

Who is making a big stink?

The questions are simple. The "stink" gets bigger when they are not answered.

Nobody that has asked the questions has made any derogatory remark about the company.

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post #228 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

For your measurements, do a close mic measurement, that will reduce a lot of the room influences. No offense, it would also be more credible if someone that is more established here at AVS did some measuring too. That is why I was hoping counsil followed through with his measuring.

I never did find the time to hook the Lava back up so I could run some REW FR graphs before UPS came to pick up the LSP12. I fiddled with REW and my soundcard for hours trying to get it to work. I think my M-Audio Fast Track Pro is crapping out on me.

I did notice, however, that the sub was shipping several states away from where it was originally shipped from. This is pure speculation on my part, but maybe Lava took our advise and shipped it to someone that could perform a *decent* review on it? The sub was already slightly damaged so it would have been a perfect sub to loan out for such a thing.

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post #229 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I never did find the time to hook the Lava back up so I could run some REW FR graphs before UPS came to pick up the LSP12. I fiddled with REW and my soundcard for hours trying to get it to work. I think my M-Audio Fast Track Pro is crapping out on me.

I did notice, however, that the sub was shipping several states away from where it was originally shipped from. This is pure speculation on my part, but maybe Lava took our advise and shipped it to someone that could perform a *decent* review on it? The sub was already slightly damaged so it would have been a perfect sub to loan out for such a thing.


You ordered a new sub and you got a damaged one from LAVA? Were you told in advance that you were buying damaged goods or were you expecting an undamaged sub?
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post #230 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

You ordered a new sub and you got a damaged one from LAVA? Were you told in advance that you were buying damaged goods or were you expecting an undamaged sub?

See line 1 on page 1 of post 41.

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post #231 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

You ordered a new sub and you got a damaged one from LAVA? Were you told in advance that you were buying damaged goods or were you expecting an undamaged sub?

To get the whole story you would have to read this thread from basically the beginning...

However, I was essentially one of the first, if not the first, to order a Lava sub here on AVS. Although the sub was packaged very well, UPS found a way to damage one corner of the sub. No big deal to me. I just figured Lava would give me a small credit ($50 or so). My wife ended out not liking the *size* of the sub. She wanted something bigger so we could use it as an end table as well. Lava immediately credited my charge card once I notified them that I didn't want the sub. Well over a week later, UPS finally came to pick up the sub.

So far Lava has proven to have great customer service. That's for sure.

FWIW, I liked the LSP12 better than the Epik Empire because the Lava was ported. The Empire is just way too small for my huge upstairs living room. IMO, the Lava was able to produce a greater impact due to the fact it was ported and my entire upstairs has hardwood floors. The Empire is totally inert. I could not convince my wife to keep the Lava.

I could have purchased 3 LSP12s for the price I paid for one Empire. 3 LSP12s would have rocked my upstairs. The Empire is very underwhelming. It doesn't help that it is located farthest from a corner as possible.

Just some random thoughts...

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post #232 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

See line 1 on page 1 of post 41.

What Randy said!

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post #233 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

To get the whole story you would have to read this thread from basically the beginning...

However, I was essentially one of the first, if not the first, to order a Lava sub here on AVS. Although the sub was packaged very well, UPS found a way to damage one corner of the sub. No big deal to me. I just figured Lava would give me a small credit ($50 or so). My wife ended out not liking the *size* of the sub. She wanted something bigger so we could use it as an end table as well. Lava immediately credited my charge card once I notified them that I didn't want the sub. Well over a week later, UPS finally came to pick up the sub.

So far Lava has proven to have great customer service. That's for sure.

FWIW, I liked the LSP12 better than the Epik Empire because the Lava was ported. The Empire is just way too small for my huge upstairs living room. IMO, the Lava was able to produce a greater impact due to the fact it was ported and my entire upstairs has hardwood floors. The Empire is totally inert. I could not convince my wife to keep the Lava.

I could have purchased 3 LSP12s for the price I paid for one Empire. 3 LSP12s would have rocked my upstairs. The Empire is very underwhelming. It doesn't help that it is located farthest from a corner as possible.

Just some random thoughts...

I wouldn't want a damaged sub, not even to save $50. And while you said it was well packaged, LAVA wouldn't be the first subwoofer company that had to revise the packaging on at least one of its recently released subs because of shipping damage.
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post #234 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:02 PM
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+1 for Lava customer service. I e-mailed them a question late last night and it was promptly answered early this morning. They honored the AVS 15% discount without any hassle and have live humans answering their phones. So far so good.

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post #235 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:05 PM
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+1 for Lava customer service. I e-mailed them a question late last night and it was promptly answered early this morning. They honored the AVS 15% discount without any hassle and have live humans answering their phones. So far so good.


Did you ask them about the 13 db boost at 40 Hz and the placement recommendations?
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post #236 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:21 PM
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Man I didnt mean to start a pissing match on the merits of whether or not this tone sweep or whatever its called is warranted. Either way, Eric (and anyone else Ive talked to at Lava) does not seem like the type to me that will dodge questions.

As an aside, will I be able to hear this WITHOUT a tone sweep dvd? I mean, what would I look for if I could?

One more, can someone tell me the pros and cons of the effects of a 13db boost at any Hz level?
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post #237 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:23 PM
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stupid double post
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post #238 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:31 PM
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Or he could know nothing about subwoofers in general and be the marketing guy... I was guilty of that in a business I worked for. You can't expect a person to know everything about a product

Seriously Gov they offer a free 30day in home trial how about you get off your butt prove you actually care about what you are complaining about and test it out for yourself. Cause in my business I found that those that made a big stink about the spec sheet never even gave the product a try. Lava offers a 30day in home free trial I suggest you take them up on it and then report back to us. All you're losing if the potential interest you could have made on $300 in 30days which isn't much

All you need is a test tone disc and dB meter. In fact there is a website I can provide for you that has everything you could possibly need just download the mp3's and burn a cd


I have not said anything negative about Lava on this thread, so I am not complaining about them. I have no interest in purchasing something from a company until I have done some research and had my questions answered. Since this simple inquiry has yet to be answered here in this thread, I will shoot Lava an e-mail.




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post #239 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:35 PM
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One more, can someone tell me the pros and cons of the effects of a 13db boost at any Hz level?

I don't see any benefit at all since most of us use some type of EQ on our subs and that 13dB will be knocked down anyway. Also, a 13dB boost in one area will certainly not be ideal for the subwoofer at spirited levels i.e. distortion and clipping = no good!




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post #240 of 1392 Old 10-14-2010, 12:38 PM
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One more, can someone tell me the pros and cons of the effects of a 13db boost at any Hz level?

Think of it this way. If you had a graphic equalizer (the ones with slide adjusters, fixed frequency bands, usually +12 to -12 adjustments) and you slid the 40 Hz slider all the way up and left all the others at 0. That's why this is being questioned as it doesn't make sense to do this.

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