Two Subs...Gain Matching vs Level Matching - Page 8 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 247 Old 08-03-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Hi Craig. What about if i have two mismatched sub? Can i stil do like what you said above?thanks.
You can really only "gain-match" subs that have identical gain structures. IOW, only identical subs can realistically be gain-matched.

If you have non-identical subs, you're probably better off using some variation of the Geddes technique of subwoofer integration:
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Good luck.

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post #212 of 247 Old 08-03-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thank you Craig for the detailed and informative reply, I feel a little better now and not so intimidated by all of this, I can't convey my appreciation for all that you have done, again many thanks my friend.
Sincerely, Jeffrey
You're welcome of course. It's what this forum is all about!

Good luck with your subwoofer integration efforts!!!

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post #213 of 247 Old 08-03-2014, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
You're welcome of course. It's what this forum is all about!

Good luck with your subwoofer integration efforts!!!

Craig

Thank you of course, I will let you know how things turned out, I decided to unstack the four subs, two in each front L&R corners and spread them out as you said, maybe two near field behind PLP and two up front in each corner after gain matching with sub's on their sides and mic 2' from center of driver. It's going to be time consuming and a little work but I believe it will be well worth it. Thanks again Craig. Not all forums are equal my friend, AVS is unique because of people like your self willing to help the uninformed.
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post #214 of 247 Old 08-03-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thank you of course, I will let you know how things turned out, I decided to unstack the four subs, two in each front L&R corners and spread them out as you said, maybe two near field behind PLP and two up front in each corner after gain matching with sub's on their sides and mic 2' from center of driver. It's going to be time consuming and a little work but I believe it will be well worth it. Thanks again Craig. Not all forums are equal my friend, AVS is unique because of people like your self willing to help the uninformed.
Distributed subs will virtually always result in better FR across a wider listening area than co-located subs. They will give up some max output/headroom, but IMO, that is a worthwhile sacrifice for better "sound quality" across more listening positions. This is especially true if you have more than enough output for your listening preferences. When one has 4 subs, MOST people will have all the output capability they'll ever need. At that point, better FR becomes the more important priority.

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post #215 of 247 Old 08-05-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
That tone should work. It's generally a 40 to 80 Hz "noise" tone. As long as you use the same tone, at the same level, for all the subs, it'll be fine.


If you have 4 identical subs, you want to use a level for *each* sub that results in a *combined* level of 72 to 78 dB when all the subs are placed back in their in-room positions. This will allow the combined subwoofer system to be properly calibrated with the speakers within the range of most receivers and pre/pro's. More below...


In my room, I find that a nearfield setting, (with the mic 2" from the middle of the driver), of 88 dB results in a combined level of 76 dB when each of the subs is placed back in its' in-room position. However, I have 3 dual opposed subs, (6, 15" drivers in 3 cabinets), distributed unevenly around my room. That same 88 dB setting may, or may not, work for you with 4 downfiring subs, and without knowing their in-room placements.

My suggestion for you is to start by having all the subs in their in-room positions, set them all to the same gain setting, and then measure their combined output at the Primary Listening Position, (PLP). If they're higher than 78 dB, lower them all the same amount until the combined SPL reads 72 - 78 dB. If they're lower than 78 dB, raise them all the same amount until the combined SPL reads 72 - 78 dB. If they are all set to the same gain setting, and you're confident that the identical gain setting results in them being gain-matched, you're done. However, some subs will have variations in the gain at identical gain settings on the amps. In that case, if you want to be more precise about it, you can proceed to the next step.

Start by moving one sub to the middle of the room. Lay it on its' side and place the mic/SPL meter 2" from the driver. Play the subwoofer test tone and measure the SPL. Mark the exact location of that sub on the floor with masking or painters tape. Without moving the mic, move that sub out and the next sub into the exact same position and adjust the gain until it reads the same SPL as the 1st sub. Then repeat that process with the other 2 subs. Then move each sub back into it's in-room position and measure the combined output at the PLP. It should be within the 72-78 dB range. If not, adjust each sub by the exact same amount until their combined response is within that range.

From that point, you can continue with your Audyssey XT calibration. It's not terribly important to have a -5 to -8 trim setting in the receiver after running Audyssey, but I personally prefer it. It allows for the ability to add some input signal to the subs to run the system a little "hot" without exceeding the "0" trim setting. Some sub amps can be overdriven with an excessively high input signal. Staying below "0" ensures you won't overdrive the input of virtually any subwoofer amp.

However, you may not be done yet. With 4 subs, if they end up being different physical distances from the PLP, you most likely need to do the Audyssey subwoofer "Distance" tweak, as written by Keith Barnes here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oct%202013.pdf

Good luck!

Craig

Craig, since talking with you last I have acquired Two dual opposed (15") driver subs, so I will try the gain matching with these, do you do both drivers of each individual sub at 88dB with mic at a distance of 2" and repeat with the second sub and then run Audy. One question as well, what about phase, you don't mention anything about this as my subs do have phase control, maybe yours doesn't. I had a PSA Triax that didn't have phase control. TIA my friend, any help is really appreciated.
Cheers Jeff
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post #216 of 247 Old 08-05-2014, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Craig, since talking with you last I have acquired Two dual opposed (15") driver subs, so I will try the gain matching with these, do you do both drivers of each individual sub at 88dB with mic at a distance of 2" and repeat with the second sub and then run Audy. One question as well, what about phase, you don't mention anything about this as my subs do have phase control, maybe yours doesn't. I had a PSA Triax that didn't have phase control. TIA my friend, any help is really appreciated.
Cheers Jeff
Just do one driver.

Set the Phase Controls to 0 or +. Set them both the same. Then do your gain-matching. Afterwards use the Subwoofer Distance Tweak in the document I linked above to time align the subs with the speakers and get them in phase.

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post #217 of 247 Old 08-05-2014, 05:48 PM
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Just do one driver.

Set the Phase Controls to 0 or +. Set them both the same. Then do your gain-matching. Afterwards use the Subwoofer Distance Tweak in the document I linked above to time align the subs with the speakers and get them in phase.

Craig
Thanks Craig again, helpful as always. I'll try and give you a break here as I have a lot of work to do and you have given me the tools to do so.
Respectfully, Jeffrey
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post #218 of 247 Old 08-08-2014, 04:22 PM
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Orientation drivers

Craig, I know the best spot for my two dual 15" opposed subs is the front two corners (L&R), my question is how important is it which way the drivers are firing, I was thinking right driver into side wall and left into front wall. Is it OK to have one driver firing into front wall and other into room or doesn't it really matter? Thanks again my friend and sorry for all the questions.
Cheers Jeff

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post #219 of 247 Old 08-08-2014, 04:38 PM
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i am not sure, if what i did is right, with my 2 mismatched sub. first sub connected, second sub is off, measure the first sub with my SPL at my MLP until SPL reads 75db. disconnected the first sub, connect the second sub, measure again with my SPL at my MLP until SPL reads at 75db. then run the full audyssey? thanks.
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post #220 of 247 Old 08-08-2014, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Craig, I know the best spot for my two dual 15" opposed subs is the front two corners (L&R), my question is how important is it which way the drivers are firing, I was thinking right driver into side wall and left into front wall. Is it OK to have one driver firing into front wall and other into room or doesn't it really matter? Thanks again my friend and sorry for all the questions.
Cheers Jeff
How much space is between the wall and the driver? If it's at least a few inches, it shouldn't matter which way they are firing.

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i am not sure, if what i did is right, with my 2 mismatched sub. first sub connected, second sub is off, measure the first sub with my SPL at my MLP until SPL reads 75db. disconnected the first sub, connect the second sub, measure again with my SPL at my MLP until SPL reads at 75db. then run the full audyssey? thanks.
As long as your sub trim (as set by Audyssey) ends up in the acceptable range (-8db to -5db) you should be good to go. If you're not in the acceptable range, adjust each sub by a couple db and re-run Audyssey (first mic position only, then calculate) until you are. Once you got the trim in range, run the full Audyssey calibration and bump the sub trim up 3db to 6db (to your preference).
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post #221 of 247 Old 08-08-2014, 08:53 PM
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Alan, I'm going to try both methods with one driver about 12" from front wall and the other firing into room. Also I will place them sort of catty corner with each driver firing into a wall about 8-12" away from each front and side wall. Thanks
Cheers Jeff
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post #222 of 247 Old 08-08-2014, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Alan, I'm going to try both methods with one driver about 12" from front wall and the other firing into room. Also I will place them sort of catty corner with each driver firing into a wall about 8-12" away from each front and side wall. Thanks
Cheers Jeff
My dual oppose subs worked better catty corner.
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post #223 of 247 Old 02-04-2015, 08:05 AM
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Okay, so, I tried to gain match my two different subs using the gain matching method discussed here by placing each sub separately in the center of the room, placed my spl meter about 2 inched from the woofer and tried to match each one to 90db. Actually, I used 100db. When trying to use 90 the volume knob on one of my subs was hardly even turned up. Sub #1 's knob is at 12 o'clock and sub #2 is at 9 o'clock. Both subs are JBL, 12 inch woofers but different models. One is rated at 300 watts and the other 400 watts. It sounds good but I swear my 300 watt sub seems a bit louder. I'm wondering if the lower powered sub projects the test tone at a higher note than my other sub. Separately, the 300w sounds punchier but the 400w sounds smoother. Do those gain levels seem right in my case?
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post #224 of 247 Old 02-04-2015, 08:34 AM
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Going by where the gain knob is pointing means nothing since gain structure can vary from amp to amp. The subs probably have different frequency responses so the gain matching may not work so well with your mis-matched subs.

Try level matching (setting both subs to output the same SPL at the MLP) and see if it sounds better to your ears.

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Going by where the gain knob is pointing means nothing since gain structure can vary from amp to amp. The subs probably have different frequency responses so the gain matching may not work so well with your mis-matched subs.

Try level matching (setting both subs to output the same SPL at the MLP) and see if it sounds better to your ears.
That's what I'm thinking. I used to have 2 matching JBL Venue Sub12s which sounded balanced to me but one recently went out so I bought a JBL ES250PBK. On paper I thought they looked pretty similar. I might just end up going with the single ES250 and have my Onkyo 636's auto calibration do it's thing.
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post #226 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 10:10 AM
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Try level matching (setting both subs to output the same SPL at the MLP) and see if it sounds better to your ears.
Okay, this might be a dumb question, but when matching the levels at the MLP, should I have the gain on the receiver at 0?

When I originally ran the auto calibration I had identical subs both at 12 o'clock. Receiver put my sub level at -5db. I like to run a little hot so I adjusted to -2db. That usually made my subs measure between 78-82 at the listening position. So, that's what I've been trying to match again by keeping the sub gain on receiver side at -2db and trying to get each sun to be 78-82 from MLP. I'm assuming that's correct?
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post #227 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 11:11 AM
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Nope. If you want to keep your sub trim around -2db (for 78-82db at the MLP) then level match them to 72-76db individually. They should then sum (both subs running) to 78-82 at the MLP (gain of 6db for dual subs).

If you are not getting a gain of ~6db when you add the second sub, you've got phase issues.

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Sorry, one more question. If my front soundstage is as follows, Front Left, Sub 1, Center, Sub 2, Front Right, all centered along the viewing wall, and each sub is equal distance from the view area, would placing my microphone 2 inches from each subwoofer's location technically be the same thing as placing them separately in the center of the room to gain match?
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post #229 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 01:19 PM
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Yup, and that's how I do it since moving 180# subs out into the room is kind of a pain.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Yup, and that's how I do it since moving 180# subs out into the room is kind of a pain.
Cool! Thanks again!
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post #231 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 01:40 PM
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One other thing to note - if you are gain matching with the mic 2" from the sub, you will want the individual levels to be around 88-90db. This should result in around 76-78db at the MLP but your mileage may vary. It can take a bit of trial and error to get it just right.

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Okay, I will try that and see what happens. My couch is about 8.5 ft from my screen and subs usually calibrated to 6.4 feet away. I haven't rerun the auto calibration yet. Been trying to see whether gain or leveling matching works best.
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Are you aware that the calibrated distance for your subs is almost never going to be the actual physical distance? If you already knew that, sorry, but it's worth pointing out.

It's strange that your subs calibrate closer though....usually (because of the extra delay introduced by the sub's electronics) the calibrated distance will be further than the actual.

Since your subs are equidistant to the MLP, either method should work about the same for you. Gain matching will just ensure that both subs are contributing the same amount of energy into the room.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Been trying to see whether gain or leveling matching works best.
Unless you have a sub bottoming out they work exactly the same and you are wasting your time.
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post #235 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 02:47 PM
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Unless you have a sub bottoming out they work exactly the same and you are wasting your time.
Hi Gary,

Remind me again, how many multi-sub systems have you set up?

Craig

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Hi Gary,

Remind me again, how many multi-sub systems have you set up?

Craig
If you mean to prove me wrong you just failed miserably.
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post #237 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 02:55 PM
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If you mean to prove me wrong you just failed miserably.
I've told you this before... you're a funny guy.

Lombardi said it:
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you're an uncorrected funny guy.
/fixed
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post #239 of 247 Old 02-05-2015, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bpg710 View Post
Sorry, one more question. If my front soundstage is as follows, Front Left, Sub 1, Center, Sub 2, Front Right, all centered along the viewing wall, and each sub is equal distance from the view area, would placing my microphone 2 inches from each subwoofer's location technically be the same thing as placing them separately in the center of the room to gain match?
I am thinking about the same kind of placement, generally speaking does this layout work well?

Al
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^^^^^

The fastest/easiest way to tell where your subs will work best in your room is via a sub crawl.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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