The Official HSU VTF-15H Thread - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post

btw HSU RESEARCH claims that it would take you dual ULS 15 to equal a single VTF-15H and to date i think the ULS15 was theire most performing sub!..tell me if i am wrong??

Small sealed vs large ported (nearly twice the volume) is never a valid comparison. Though the statements may not be "wrong" the implied conclusion is certainly flawed. The same statement could be made comparing the ULS-15 to basically any ported sub using a 15" driver...
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post #1592 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:31 PM
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I got home a tad early today () and got a chance to unpack and hook up my VTF-15. I really haven't gotten the chance to listen to much but here is a couple of notes.

First column is Running rew with 2 ports open eq2 q5, 2nd 1 port open eq2 q5, this is with a reset Onkyo 707, no aydessey no eq'ing, mic set at my main listening seat, 14 ft. Obviously in room. I am going to test my modes to see what looks best in my room, and sounds best. Then i am going to run Aydessey, then eq it with a FBQ2496.

I am very impressed with the fit and finish, excellent packing. And I really don't think it is huge as some say. It is smaller than my ported IXL 18.2.2. Also at -20db is really shakes the room. Now back to watching and listening.

10hz 55.7 64.2
15hz 72.7 74.2
20hz 81.2 79.7
30hz 83.1 81.6
40hz 95.3 99.2
50hz 89 93.1
60hz 93.8 93.4
70hz 87.9 86.8
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post #1593 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Small sealed vs large ported (nearly twice the volume) is never a valid comparison. Though the statements may not be "wrong" the implied conclusion is certainly flawed. The same statement could be made comparing the ULS-15 to basically any ported sub using a 15" driver...

I agree lennon that small sealed box and bigger ported designs should not be compared...but the ULS15 received more then good reviews and was known to be a very good performer in low extention and mid bass....so how can the 15H not be recomended for HT?.....i am just asking ...not looking for trouble!!...if you prefer to pm me i will answer you...
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post #1594 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post

(1)i was never right on anything i said so ok...(2) i am not the only one who call them ''haters''....(3) no product is perfect so i didnt expect it to be perfect!..ok well soon there will be more and more reviews about the product that will claim it is a more then average product and even better then more costly subs and that it is highly recommended...then come back and tell me that Paul was right to say it is ''barely'' good for HT......come on...btw HSU RESEARCH claims that it would take you dual ULS 15 to equal a single VTF-15H and to date i think the ULS15 was theire most performing sub!..tell me if i am wrong?? ..they also say that the 15H is the most capable sub they ever produced!!...go to DR HSU and tell him??....

In a way, comparing the ULS 15 and the VTF-15 is like comparing apples and oranges. The ULS is a sealed sub, while the VTF is ported and as such are designed with different goals in mind and will behave very differently in the same room.

Paul's statement around the quality of the VTF for HT was based on his view that a good HT sub performs well under the 20Hz mark. For various reasons, including room gain, the sealed ULS will, by Paul's definition, be a better HT sub. The VTF certainly does have more output overall, but not in the lowest octave. That doesn't make the VTF "bad" for HT, but just not as good as other subs in the comparison based on his measurements.

Here is the quote about the ULS from HSU's web site
"ULS offers outstanding performance with ultra low distortion and super deep bass extension". Also note that on HSU's site, the ULS is only down 1db at 15Hz vs. the VTF which is down 2db at 15Hz. Regardless of whether we believe these numbers to be accurate, even HSU's own published numbers support the statement that the ULS is a better HT sub (if sub 20Hz is the goal) than the VTF. You can take that up with HSU if you don't agree - it's their measurement.

Please read carefully and note that nowhere here or in any other post have I or others said that the VTF isn't a good sub, or isnt a good value. Just that there are other subs that are better performers down low, and if that is your primary goal, the VTF may not be the best solution. Whether it is better than more costly subs will depend on the sub. Is it better than some more expensive subs, probably. Is it better than a PB-13, Submersive, or many other more expensive subs - no, it is not unless (perhaps) cost is brought into the equation.

Just for the record, I have a JL F113, and there are AVS posters who don't think it's a good HT sub either. No big deal to me - it does what I want and fits the space/design criteria that I needed to fulfill. I don't let other's opinions bother me much when I'm happy with what I've got.
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post #1595 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

I got home a tad early today () and got a chance to unpack and hook up my VTF-15. I really haven't gotten the chance to listen to much but here is a couple of notes.

First column is Running rew with 2 ports open eq2 q5, 2nd 1 port open eq2 q5, this is with a reset Onkyo 707, no aydessey no eq'ing, mic set at my main listening seat, 14 ft. Obviously in room. I am going to test my modes to see what looks best in my room, and sounds best. Then i am going to run Aydessey, then eq it with a FBQ2496.

I am very impressed with the fit and finish, excellent packing. And I really don't think it is huge as some say. It is smaller than my ported IXL 18.2.2. Also at -20db is really shakes the room. Now back to watching and listening.

10hz 55.7 64.2
15hz 72.7 74.2
20hz 81.2 79.7
30hz 83.1 81.6
40hz 95.3 99.2
50hz 89 93.1
60hz 93.8 93.4
70hz 87.9 86.8

Thx for your numbers Sepen....but i suggest you that you wait untill the break in is done....i noticed a big difference since the first day i had it and now.....
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post #1596 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

my ported IXL 18.2.2

Ooh, now you're talking. Will you be comparing these directly? Very interested to hear how the VTF-15H compares
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post #1597 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post
In a way, comparing the ULS 15 and the VTF-15 is like comparing apples and oranges. The ULS is a sealed sub, while the VTF is ported and as such are designed with different goals in mind and will behave very differently in the same room.

Paul's statement around the quality of the VTF for HT was based on his view that a good HT sub performs well under the 20Hz mark. For various reasons, including room gain, the sealed ULS will, by Paul's definition, be a better HT sub. The VTF certainly does have more output overall, but not in the lowest octave. That doesn't make the VTF "bad" for HT, but just not as good as other subs in the comparison based on his measurements.

Here is the quote about the ULS from HSU's web site
"ULS offers outstanding performance with ultra low distortion and super deep bass extension". Also note that on HSU's site, the ULS is only down 1db at 15Hz vs. the VTF which is down 2db at 15Hz. Regardless of whether we believe these numbers to be accurate, even HSU's own published numbers support the statement that the ULS is a better HT sub (if sub 20Hz is the goal) than the VTF. You can take that up with HSU if you don't agree - it's their measurement.

Please read carefully and note that nowhere here or in any other post have I or others said that the VTF isn't a good sub, or isnt a good value. Just that there are other subs that are better performers down low, and if that is your primary goal, the VTF may not be the best solution. Whether it is better than more costly subs will depend on the sub. Is it better than some more expensive subs, probably. Is it better than a PB-13, Submersive, or many other more expensive subs - no, it is not unless (perhaps) cost is brought into the equation.

Just for the record, I have a JL F113, and there are AVS posters who don't think it's a good HT sub either. No big deal to me - it does what I want and fits the space/design criteria that I needed to fulfill. I don't let other's opinions bother me much when I'm happy with what I've got.
If you review a product like what seems to be best a company has produced and you say it is barely good for HT i think people will go elswhere...and i think it was made on purpose!! ok....i saw and read other forums that people went away from HSU because of Paul's review...and to him he suceeded in what he wanted to accomplish...if that is only obvious to me well i will understand....
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post #1598 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:51 PM
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I will probably tinker with it a few days, then tinker with it at a few weeks, then a month, then..then..then, there is nothing like a hobby, right? One thing I have noticed vs the IXL 18" is that it is dead silent, until the need for bass is required, then the waves hit you. I always felt that the IXL was too involved. Oh, and when I got home the box was in the kitchen, and did I ever get a awful eye glare from the wife. Figures that she had to go in at 1pm today. I am going to treat her to a nice rib eye steak tonight.


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Thx for your numbers Sepen....but i suggest you that you wait untill the break in is done....i noticed a big difference since the first day i had it and now.....
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post #1599 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post
Ooh, now you're talking. Will you be comparing these directly? Very interested to hear how the VTF-15H compares

Yes I am. It is really strange but the numbers look very similar. But by the looks of them, the VTF extends lower ( 1 port mode), if you can believe that. The VTF also is a tad higher in the 40-50hz range. But these numbers don't mean squat, and I know people don't like to hear it but I will be basing my impressions on what I hear and feel. BTW, I have dual MFW-15's....both the IXL and VTF sound much much better, IMHO. I am going to listen and run rew for the next few days and I will give my impression then.
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post #1600 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post
I will probably tinker with it a few days, then tinker with it at a few weeks, then a month, then..then..then, there is nothing like a hobby, right? One thing I have noticed vs the IXL 18" is that it is dead silent, until the need for bass is required, then the waves hit you. I always felt that the IXL was too involved. Oh, and when I got home the box was in the kitchen, and did I ever get a awful eye glare from the wife. Figures that she had to go in at 1pm today. I am going to treat her to a nice rib eye steak tonight.
In two weeks or so depending on how many hours you used it it will sound like no other!!....haha...but i am sure that even out of the box you will think this thing can deliver....
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post #1601 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post
Yes I am. It is really strange but the numbers look very similar. But by the looks of them, the VTF extends lower ( 1 port mode), if you can believe that. The VTF also is a tad higher in the 40-50hz range. But these numbers don't mean squat, and I know people don't like to hear it but I will be basing my impressions on what I hear and feel. BTW, I have dual MFW-15's....both the IXL and VTF sound much much better, IMHO. I am going to listen and run rew for the next few days and I will give my impression then.
That's great to hear. I look forward to seeing the results. When you post them be sure to include the details of your IXL build for quick reference... I didn't find a build thread in the DIY section
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post #1602 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post
In a way, comparing the ULS 15 and the VTF-15 is like comparing apples and oranges. The ULS is a sealed sub, while the VTF is ported and as such are designed with different goals in mind and will behave very differently in the same room.

Paul's statement around the quality of the VTF for HT was based on his view that a good HT sub performs well under the 20Hz mark. For various reasons, including room gain, the sealed ULS will, by Paul's definition, be a better HT sub. The VTF certainly does have more output overall, but not in the lowest octave. That doesn't make the VTF "bad" for HT, but just not as good as other subs in the comparison based on his measurements.

Here is the quote about the ULS from HSU's web site
"ULS offers outstanding performance with ultra low distortion and super deep bass extension". Also note that on HSU's site, the ULS is only down 1db at 15Hz vs. the VTF which is down 2db at 15Hz. Regardless of whether we believe these numbers to be accurate, even HSU's own published numbers support the statement that the ULS is a better HT sub (if sub 20Hz is the goal) than the VTF. You can take that up with HSU if you don't agree - it's their measurement.

Please read carefully and note that nowhere here or in any other post have I or others said that the VTF isn't a good sub, or isnt a good value. Just that there are other subs that are better performers down low, and if that is your primary goal, the VTF may not be the best solution. Whether it is better than more costly subs will depend on the sub. Is it better than some more expensive subs, probably. Is it better than a PB-13, Submersive, or many other more expensive subs - no, it is not unless (perhaps) cost is brought into the equation.

Just for the record, I have a JL F113, and there are AVS posters who don't think it's a good HT sub either. No big deal to me - it does what I want and fits the space/design criteria that I needed to fulfill. I don't let other's opinions bother me much when I'm happy with what I've got.
And do you honeslty think the VTF-15H dont perform below 20Hz??... or isnt a ''true'' 20 Hz performer??.....it goes much lower and with out any botomming out and amp clipping...i tested it at reference volumes and the bash amp doesnt even get hot....and the woofer is not sweating at all in everything i shoot at it!.....maybe i dont really own a 15h...it must be another brand...
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post #1603 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post
And do you honeslty think the VTF-15H dont perform below 20Hz??... or isnt a ''true'' 20 Hz performer??.....it goes much lower and with out any botomming out and amp clipping...i tested it at reference volumes and the bash amp doesnt even get hot....and the woofer is not sweating at all in everything i shoot at it!.....maybe i dont really own a 15h...it must be another brand...
Reference levels include peaks to 115db. What were your measured levels on frequencies below 20hz in particular? In other words, how do you know that you are getting useful output that is actually below 20hz? At higher output levels, HSU suggests using the setting that engages a 30hz filter. How much content below 20hz do you feel is getting through and how do you know it?

Don't get mad with me, I'm just asking.
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iI'm so tempted to point out that the Hsu measurements (that is the measurements made by Hsu and provided to the reviewer) that are included in the review show groundplane results down about 5 dB at 20 Hz and another 12 dB at 10 Hz. But there's no point is there?
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post #1605 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Reference levels include peaks to 115db. What were your measured levels on frequencies below 20hz in particular? In other words, how do you know that you are getting useful output that is actually below 20hz? At higher output levels, HSU suggests using the setting that engages a 30hz filter. How much content below 20hz do you feel is getting through and how do you know it?

Don't get mad with me, I'm just asking.
I remember Pete saying the tuning was 22Hz with 2 ports open and Paul saying it was 30Hz with 2 ports open? Did Pete say there was a 30Hz filter or did Paul? I thought it was Paul and this was one of their disagreements.

From what I remember Hsu recommends using 2 ports open(22Hz mode) for high playback and Paul is the one that says the filter is at 30Hz not Pete or Hsu.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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post #1606 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Reference levels include peaks to 115db. What were your measured levels on frequencies below 20hz in particular? In other words, how do you know that you are getting useful output that is actually below 20hz? At higher output levels, HSU suggests using the setting that engages a 30hz filter. How much content below 20hz do you feel is getting through and how do you know it?

Don't get mad with me, I'm just asking.
Hi mojo..what is reference level to you??...i have a system that i can test at reference level if thats whats your asking me....having bought and owned so many brands of speakers and subs i can make the difference!...alll you need are numbers!!!...so good....trust those false numbers.........
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post #1607 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I remember Pete saying the tuning was 22Hz with 2 ports open and Paul saying it was 30Hz with 2 ports open? Did Pete say there was a 30Hz filter or did Paul? I thought it was Paul and this was one of their disagreements.

From what I remember Hsu recommends using 2 ports open(22Hz mode) for high playback and Paul is the one that says the filter is at 30Hz not Pete or Hsu.
I think it was Paul that mentioned the 30hz filter. What does seem to support that is the look of a distinct "knee" near 30hz both on AV's response graphs as well as the response graph supplied to AV by HSU.
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Reference levels include peaks to 115db. What were your measured levels on frequencies below 20hz in particular? In other words, how do you know that you are getting useful output that is actually below 20hz? At higher output levels, HSU suggests using the setting that engages a 30hz filter. How much content below 20hz do you feel is getting through and how do you know it?

Don't get mad with me, I'm just asking.
According to my SMS-1 i'm getting everything from atleast 15hz and above. (no eq applied) Due to my room shape and size (4500 cu ft) it's peaky.
However, since the SMS-1 is 1/3 octave it's not precise and below 20hz could look ugly (hell, the whole thing could look ugly at specific freqs). I guess a good option would be to run each tone with a SPL meter at your listening position. In general terms and based on my SMS-1 i'm getting what I paid for. (i don't listen to reference lvls)

FYI, I run mine with one port open/eq2 and q=.5.
My 2nd 15H should ship today which will help in my overall room response.

Jim

P.S. with deeper pockets I might have gone a different route. 2 of them fit my budget and gives me what I want. Good or poor reviews didn't change how it sounds to me in my room.
Milage may vary :P
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post #1609 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:00 PM
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Hi mojo..what is reference level to you??...i have a system that i can test at reference level if thats whats your asking me....having bought and owned so many brands of speakers and subs i can make the difference!...alll you need are numbers!!!...so good....trust those false numbers.........
Reference level is reference level. That would be 85db average. 105db peaks in the main channels. 115db peaks in the sub. That's not "my" reference level. It is "the" reference level.
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Reference level is reference level. That would be 85db average. 105db peaks in the main channels. 115db peaks in the sub. That's not "my" reference level. It is "the" reference level.
Mojo, if I were to let Aydessey do it's thing then would what everyone refers to as reference be "0" on the volume? Thanks.
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post #1611 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I remember Pete saying the tuning was 22Hz with 2 ports open and Paul saying it was 30Hz with 2 ports open? Did Pete say there was a 30Hz filter or did Paul? I thought it was Paul and this was one of their disagreements.

From what I remember Hsu recommends using 2 ports open(22Hz mode) for high playback and Paul is the one that says the filter is at 30Hz not Pete or Hsu.
Legairre,

Mojo will believe only Paul's numbers and graphs.

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #1612 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:17 PM
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Mojo, if I were to let Aydessey do it's thing then would what everyone refers to as reference be "0" on the volume? Thanks.
With most AVR's, that is the case.
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post #1613 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post
I got home a tad early today () and got a chance to unpack and hook up my VTF-15. I really haven't gotten the chance to listen to much but here is a couple of notes.

First column is Running rew with 2 ports open eq2 q5, 2nd 1 port open eq2 q5, this is with a reset Onkyo 707, no aydessey no eq'ing, mic set at my main listening seat, 14 ft. Obviously in room. I am going to test my modes to see what looks best in my room, and sounds best. Then i am going to run Aydessey, then eq it with a FBQ2496.

I am very impressed with the fit and finish, excellent packing. And I really don't think it is huge as some say. It is smaller than my ported IXL 18.2.2. Also at -20db is really shakes the room. Now back to watching and listening.

10hz 55.7 64.2
15hz 72.7 74.2
20hz 81.2 79.7
30hz 83.1 81.6
40hz 95.3 99.2
50hz 89 93.1
60hz 93.8 93.4
70hz 87.9 86.8
Sepen, are those numbers using the correction tables? Looks like you've got a hack of a peak at 40hz, though the numbers at 50/60 also seem high in relation to 30/20.

BTW, get REW man!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #1614 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:25 PM
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Legairre,

Mojo will believe only Paul's numbers and graphs.
In this case here, we have a graph supplied by HSU. Note sharp rolloff in response that begins at 30hz on this graph.
LL
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post #1615 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:30 PM
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That is with rew. I was on my Netbook and was to lazy to upload images. I am going to have fun this weekend. And yes, the numbers are high at 40-60. With my MFW-15, HSU 3.3, IXL 18.2.2, Infinity Kappa builds, all the numbers took a huge bump at those frequencies. But I have yet to do Aydessey and the FBQ. I will get around to it soon.



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Sepen, are those numbers using the correction tables? Looks like you've got a hack of a peak at 40hz, though the numbers at 50/60 also seem high in relation to 30/20.

BTW, get REW man!
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post #1616 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:30 PM
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In this case here, we have a graph supplied by HSU. Note sharp rolloff in response that begins at 30hz on this graph.
And here they are again..trying to slamm....why dont you guys go on another thread?.........do you have something personal with HSU???....
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post #1617 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post
That is with rew. I was on my Netbook and was to lazy to upload images. I am going to have fun this weekend. And yes, the numbers are high at 40-60. With my MFW-15, HSU 3.3, IXL 18.2.2, Infinity Kappa builds, all the numbers took a huge bump at those frequencies. But I have yet to do Aydessey and the FBQ. I will get around to it soon.
So do you actually have build threads for the DIY's btw? The Shack maybe?

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #1618 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:38 PM
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FYI, I run mine with one port open/eq2 and q=.5.
My 2nd 15H should ship today which will help in my overall room response.
Adding a second subwoofer did wonders for my frequency response. With two VTF15h and the SMS-1, you should be golden.

Life is good.
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post #1619 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
In this case here, we have a graph supplied by HSU. Note sharp rolloff in response that begins at 30hz on this graph.
Again you are seeing what you want to see.

Pete said:

"As some of you may know, we measured an outdoor frequency response of +/- 2.5dB from 20-200Hz (ie. 5dB down at 20Hz relative to 50Hz)"

I see the 5db down at 20hz relative to 50hz...what do you see?

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #1620 of 5124 Old 02-24-2011, 02:41 PM
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So do you actually have build threads for the DIY's btw? The Shack maybe?
No, sorry. Mike P helped me out with them all at the Shack. The IXL is 6 cu ft down firing tuned to 18hz, driven by an OAudio 500 watt amp. With room gain I have really good output to 15hz.
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