The Official HSU VTF-15H Thread - Page 79 - AVS Forum
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post #2341 of 5186 Old 02-27-2012, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Ratm, the different colors don't mean anything, that is just the colors that REW (Room EQ Wizard) chose when I was running different frequency responses.

Ok, then 2nd noob question. Is there something (in a Subwoofer graph for dummies format) that I can read to understand what you posted and why its good or bad?
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post #2342 of 5186 Old 02-27-2012, 11:26 AM
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Here is a article that may be of help.

Understanding Speaker Frequency Response
http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics...es/131062.html

Basically the environment where the content is created has a flat response and we are trying to emulate this flat response so we hear the same thing. In a small room acoustic environment, the modal behavior of the room dominates the subwoofers frequency response. This is why having the additional setup options can help to get you the sound you are looking for. Subwoofer and seating placement also have a large affect on this response and is why system setup is so important.
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post #2343 of 5186 Old 02-27-2012, 12:51 PM
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Thanks!
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post #2344 of 5186 Old 02-27-2012, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Thanks!

As a beginner, something you can do is pick up an inexpensive SPL meter and download some free test tones (can point you in the right direction).

You can do a nearfileld measurement of the subwoofer using the test tones and then put them on a graph (Excel) and then measure from your listening position and get an idea of what challenges your room has. If your receiver has Audyssey, it can help, and the VTF-15H has lots of tuning options which can help too It will also help you with room placement if you are seeing big nulls in your graph.

This helped me when I was first getting into this stuff:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286
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post #2345 of 5186 Old 02-27-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

As a beginner, something you can do is pick up an inexpensive SPL meter and download some free test tones (can point you in the right direction).

You can do a nearfileld measurement of the subwoofer using the test tones and then put them on a graph (Excel) and then measure from your listening position and get an idea of what challenges your room has. If your receiver has Audyssey, it can help, and the VTF-15H has lots of tuning options which can help too It will also help you with room placement if you are seeing big nulls in your graph.

This helped me when I was first getting into this stuff:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286

I hate being a 41 year old beginner at anything. But thank you for the link. I do have the test tones CD that I made when I first got my Lava LSP-12's. As far as a meter goes, are any of the iphone apps any good? I have YPAO and it "seems" to work
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post #2346 of 5186 Old 02-27-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

I hate being a 41 year old beginner at anything. But thank you for the link. I do have the test tones CD that I made when I first got my Lava LSP-12's. As far as a meter goes, are any of the iphone apps any good? I have YPAO and it "seems" to work

I have not tried the iPhone apps as I heard mixed reviews on them. Radio Shack sells an SPL meter for about $50 and is pretty popular if you don't mind the expense.
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post #2347 of 5186 Old 02-28-2012, 08:29 AM
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I am curious if is essential that the VTF-15H be placed in a front firing configuration for most effectiveness.

I mean, could this be placed such that the driver & ports face the wall in a corner placement say 2-3 inches from the drywall?

With kids running around, it might seem to be a safe thing to do, but not sure if that would reduce or somehow change its FR and/or SPL characteristics. Anyone try this orientation?
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post #2348 of 5186 Old 02-28-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post


I hate being a 41 year old beginner at anything. But thank you for the link. I do have the test tones CD that I made when I first got my Lava LSP-12's. As far as a meter goes, are any of the iphone apps any good? I have YPAO and it "seems" to work

They are extreme extremely inaccurate. Your best bet is to get the radio shack Spl meter cause its the best most accurate Spl meter you can get at a cheap price.
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post #2349 of 5186 Old 02-28-2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by anonymouse99 View Post

I am curious if is essential that the VTF-15H be placed in a front firing configuration for most effectiveness.

I mean, could this be placed such that the driver & ports face the wall in a corner placement say 2-3 inches from the drywall?

With kids running around, it might seem to be a safe thing to do, but not sure if that would reduce or somehow change its FR and/or SPL characteristics. Anyone try this orientation?

It would be fine to face the driver and ports toward a wall, but I would give it 4 inches minimum for the ports to breathe. Make sure the controls on the amp are not exposed for the kids to tweak!
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post #2350 of 5186 Old 02-29-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

It would be fine to face the driver and ports toward a wall, but I would give it 4 inches minimum for the ports to breathe. Make sure the controls on the amp are not exposed for the kids to tweak!

Excellent advice - those darn kids will take any excuse to twist knobs and touch blinking lights! I cover glowing LEDs with electrical tape just to be safe.

Are you the real Dr. Hsu or just a big fan?
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post #2351 of 5186 Old 02-29-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

Excellent advice - those darn kids will take any excuse to twist knobs and touch blinking lights! I cover glowing LEDs with electrical tape just to be safe.

Are you the real Dr. Hsu or just a big fan?

The real one!
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post #2352 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 11:47 AM
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Greetings, fellow Hsuians.

It's been roughly 6 months since I took delivery of my VTF-3 MK4, and I must say I'm still absolutely in love with this sub. I've tweaked and fiddled a bit since my initial tuning session with it back in September/October, but my opinion hasn't changed on the settings. EQ1, one port, Q of .3 is the perfect crossroads of frequency response and sound quality for my ears. If I want to tighten things up for whatever reason, plug the port. I really only do this on certain musical recordings, and only for them, and only when I'm feeling seriously anal about it. The difference in transient response is audible, and I'm historically a sealed sub kinda guy, but running with one port never sounds Bad(tm) at all. Movies... never run sealed.

In the over-all scheme with my VSX 1120 and Infinity Interlude 10 L/R and 25 C the MCACC settings have the speakers at "Large" and the Subwoofer at "Plus". The IL10's don't quiiiiite make it down to 50 with authority, but the highpass slope on the subwoofer channel that the receiver provides allows for a nice transition. I know THX specs call for the X-over to be at 80hz, but I really can localize bass pretty low and this setting causes 1. Severe narrowing of the soundfield (staged music or movies) and 2. Too much boom in the 60-80hz range. This second thing is not any fault of the sub, but rather the meager EQ ability on the sub channel of the receiver. It's importance is completely mitigated by point 1 though: I hate the way it sounds when the mains can't do some of their own heavy lifting.

If I had the room to run two of these things wired for mutual stereo and LFE... I totally would. That's not going to happen though.

I know I'm talky as all get-out when I wade into this thread, and today's no exception, but for the review of material played through the sub in the last six months, it's a very short discussion.

This sub plays everything well because it just gets out of the way. This is especially true on EQ1, sealed with Q of .3. Get the levels dialed in and this thing does for the bass material what a solid tweet does for the highs: it doesn't dictate the material, it just puts a shine on it. Bass can indeed be breathy and delicate, even when it's pounding your head into the walls. And this sub does this through all levels of dynamic range, and all without any sign of strain from driver compression, lack of amplification ability, anything. It's just clean. Very, very clean.

When you open up one port, changing nothing else, the character does change as described above, but because of the protective nature of the extremely low port tuning, the lack of strain even down to 12hz in my room is just staggering. If you've not experienced the solid presence of below-20hz material before it may actually startle you at first. I HAVE been around that sort of material for decades in cars, and this still startled me. I've never heard reasonably accessible (from a financial perspective) home subwoofer solution that could do this, and it does it so well that it's just jaw-dropping.

In closing I'll provide a quote from my wife from this past weekend. She'd gotten me the Imax Hubble Telescope bluray for Christmas, but we'd not thrown it in yet until Friday night. There are two shuttle launch sequences in the material. The first one was from years and years ago, and the recording mechanisms used weren't so good. The second one though, was recorded in high-def glory with excellent sound back in 2009.

As a kid she was present for a shuttle launch. When the first one on the bluray played, she commented immediately that "wow... should be more bass than that" and kinda frowned. We both just kind of shrugged and kept watching, changing no levels or settings.

The second one went off later in the material. The whole room sounded like it was going to come apart at the framing and rip itself from the foundation. Once it all subsided, her eyes blinking in amazement, "That... is what it really sounds like."

This sub is just disgustingly good, and you can tune it to sound as beautifully clinical or diviantly quake-ish as you like. And in my house I can do this in ~4000 ft3 at ridiculous reference levels at the seating position with room modes of 120+ db @ 16hz.
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post #2353 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alleric View Post

Greetings, fellow Hsuians.

It's been roughly 6 months since I took delivery of my VTF-3 MK4, and I must say I'm still absolutely in love with this sub. I've tweaked and fiddled a bit since my initial tuning session with it back in September/October, but my opinion hasn't changed on the settings. EQ1, one port, Q of .3 is the perfect crossroads of frequency response and sound quality for my ears. If I want to tighten things up for whatever reason, plug the port. I really only do this on certain musical recordings, and only for them, and only when I'm feeling seriously anal about it. The difference in transient response is audible, and I'm historically a sealed sub kinda guy, but running with one port never sounds Bad(tm) at all. Movies... never run sealed.

In the over-all scheme with my VSX 1120 and Infinity Interlude 10 L/R and 25 C the MCACC settings have the speakers at "Large" and the Subwoofer at "Plus". The IL10's don't quiiiiite make it down to 50 with authority, but the highpass slope on the subwoofer channel that the receiver provides allows for a nice transition. I know THX specs call for the X-over to be at 80hz, but I really can localize bass pretty low and this setting causes 1. Severe narrowing of the soundfield (staged music or movies) and 2. Too much boom in the 60-80hz range. This second thing is not any fault of the sub, but rather the meager EQ ability on the sub channel of the receiver. It's importance is completely mitigated by point 1 though: I hate the way it sounds when the mains can't do some of their own heavy lifting.

If I had the room to run two of these things wired for mutual stereo and LFE... I totally would. That's not going to happen though.

I know I'm talky as all get-out when I wade into this thread, and today's no exception, but for the review of material played through the sub in the last six months, it's a very short discussion.

This sub plays everything well because it just gets out of the way. This is especially true on EQ1, sealed with Q of .3. Get the levels dialed in and this thing does for the bass material what a solid tweet does for the highs: it doesn't dictate the material, it just puts a shine on it. Bass can indeed be breathy and delicate, even when it's pounding your head into the walls. And this sub does this through all levels of dynamic range, and all without any sign of strain from driver compression, lack of amplification ability, anything. It's just clean. Very, very clean.

When you open up one port, changing nothing else, the character does change as described above, but because of the protective nature of the extremely low port tuning, the lack of strain even down to 12hz in my room is just staggering. If you've not experienced the solid presence of below-20hz material before it may actually startle you at first. I HAVE been around that sort of material for decades in cars, and this still startled me. I've never heard reasonably accessible (from a financial perspective) home subwoofer solution that could do this, and it does it so well that it's just jaw-dropping.

In closing I'll provide a quote from my wife from this past weekend. She'd gotten me the Imax Hubble Telescope bluray for Christmas, but we'd not thrown it in yet until Friday night. There are two shuttle launch sequences in the material. The first one was from years and years ago, and the recording mechanisms used weren't so good. The second one though, was recorded in high-def glory with excellent sound back in 2009.

As a kid she was present for a shuttle launch. When the first one on the bluray played, she commented immediately that "wow... should be more bass than that" and kinda frowned. We both just kind of shrugged and kept watching, changing no levels or settings.

The second one went off later in the material. The whole room sounded like it was going to come apart at the framing and rip itself from the foundation. Once it all subsided, her eyes blinking in amazement, "That... is what it really sounds like."

This sub is just disgustingly good, and you can tune it to sound as beautifully clinical or diviantly quake-ish as you like. And in my house I can do this in ~4000 ft3 at ridiculous reference levels at the seating position with room modes of 120+ db @ 16hz.

Thank you so much for your praise! Check out Doug Blackburn's review at Widescreen Review on the VTF-3 MK4 in the current issue of Widescreen. Seems he feels the same way as you.
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post #2354 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 02:50 PM
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Don't you have to pay to be a subscriber in order to see it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

Thank you so much for your praise! Check out Doug Blackburn's review at Widescreen Review on the VTF-3 MK4 in the current issue of Widescreen. Seems he feels the same way as you.

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post #2355 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 03:39 PM
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Don't you have to pay to be a subscriber in order to see it?

Unfortunately, yes. You can look at the magazine on the newsstands too.
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post #2356 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Alleric View Post

Greetings, fellow Hsuians.

It's been roughly 6 months since I took delivery of my VTF-3 MK4...

This sub is just disgustingly good, and you can tune it to sound as beautifully clinical or diviantly quake-ish as you like. And in my house I can do this in ~4000 ft3 at ridiculous reference levels at the seating position with room modes of 120+ db @ 16hz.

Its a good sub alright and I fully applaud your enthusiasm, but you can't be hitting 120+ db at 16hz in a 4000 cubic foot room at the listening position. Your meter is off if you are measuring a single vtf-3 sub that loud at 16hz

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post #2357 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 04:14 PM
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Its a good sub alright, but not 120+ db at 16hz good in a 4000 cubic foot room. Your meter is off if you are measuring a single vtf-3 sub that loud at 16hz

My VTF15-H does about 140db at 10hz. J/K. I think the most volume it has ever seen is -20db below ref. It does just fine in my room. I also had the 3.3 before the 15H and it did a great job in my room as well. Subs are too much fun. At my age the grand kids and my theater setup are what I get the most joy out of. It stinks that I have laminate over a concrete floor though.
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post #2358 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Its a good sub alright and I fully applaud your enthusiasm, but you can't be hitting 120+ db at 16hz good in a 4000 cubic foot room at the listening position. Your meter is off if you are measuring a single vtf-3 sub that loud at 16hz

I said it was a room mode. I did not say it was at the listening position. It's off in a corner of the room a good 18 feet to the right of the listening position. When I gave the sub the full testing treatment with measurements after a month or so break-in period I measured with reference pitches and warbles. Some were my own material, some was on the reference CD provided with purchase.

The sub is placed on a wall with the driver facing the listener, ports firing down the placement wall. The listening position is approximately 11 feet away on the opposing wall. This space is very long lateral to the staging of the soundfield.

At the listening position, with EQ1, Q of .3 and one port open I measure a flat response curve from 80hz down to 42hz, then a massive balloon of 8-12db in the 40hz to 25hz range, which tapers off to put me back down at reference level at 15hz. I f3 beyond that around 12.5. I've managed to EQ some of it out, but really I don't care so much. It's not like my EARS are flat to 16hz, and when I've done timbre matching exercises on some of my test material it's sounded fine honestly.

Anyway, at the corner mentioned above, at the same settings, everything stays flat until around 50hz, at which point a massive 12db per octave bump begins, rising to 20db above reference at 16.5hz. Reference at the listening position was a measured 100db during this. Even accounting for the SPL-meter's ears having a rolloff down below 30hz I was still 20db over reference in that corner at that frequency.

The drywall was visably compressing, pictures tried to vault off the walls, and after about 20 seconds standing there measuring it I could feel my insides reconsidering their relationship with lunch.

Ports and corners. Ports and corners. It's been the bread and butter of low-frequency SPL bumps for years.

For the record, if I run the sub sealed that rise in the corner poofs, the balloon at the listening position vanishes, and there's a very gentle net rolloff of about 4db per octave from 50hz down. It's the cleanest setting, as previously stated, but it does lower the Giggle Factor a bit.

This is all kind of moot though, really. We just comissioned new media room furniture, ordered new rugs, new couch, etc. Here in about 8 weeks when all that shows up, the VTF-3 is moving to the left of our couch and will be hidden by a custom alder shroud we're having built for it to match the new furniture. Once that happens the whole thing will need to be recalibrated.

Darn the luck.


editditeitedtediedit:

Re-reading the sentence you quoted I can see how you interpreted it. I phrased that very badly. No harm. No foul. Hopefully I've clarified things.
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post #2359 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

My VTF15-H does about 140db at 10hz. J/K. I think the most volume it has ever seen is -20db below ref. It does just fine in my room. I also had the 3.3 before the 15H and it did a great job in my room as well. Subs are too much fun. At my age the grand kids and my theater setup are what I get the most joy out of. It stinks that I have laminate over a concrete floor though.

Yes, that sucks. Much nicer to have a suspended floor that heaves when hit with low bass! Much more fun... In sunny Sol Cal, all we have is solid concrete floor!
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post #2360 of 5186 Old 03-19-2012, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleric View Post

I said it was a room mode. I did not say it was at the listening position. It's off in a corner of the room a good 18 feet to the right of the listening position. When I gave the sub the full testing treatment with measurements after a month or so break-in period I measured with reference pitches and warbles. Some were my own material, some was on the reference CD provided with purchase.

The sub is placed on a wall with the driver facing the listener, ports firing down the placement wall. The listening position is approximately 11 feet away on the opposing wall. This space is very long lateral to the staging of the soundfield.

At the listening position, with EQ1, Q of .3 and one port open I measure a flat response curve from 80hz down to 42hz, then a massive balloon of 8-12db in the 40hz to 25hz range, which tapers off to put me back down at reference level at 15hz. I f3 beyond that around 12.5. I've managed to EQ some of it out, but really I don't care so much. It's not like my EARS are flat to 16hz, and when I've done timbre matching exercises on some of my test material it's sounded fine honestly.

Anyway, at the corner mentioned above, at the same settings, everything stays flat until around 50hz, at which point a massive 12db per octave bump begins, rising to 20db above reference at 16.5hz. Reference at the listening position was a measured 100db during this. Even accounting for the SPL-meter's ears having a rolloff down below 30hz I was still 20db over reference in that corner at that frequency.

The drywall was visably compressing, pictures tried to vault off the walls, and after about 20 seconds standing there measuring it I could feel my insides reconsidering their relationship with lunch.

Ports and corners. Ports and corners. It's been the bread and butter of low-frequency SPL bumps for years.

For the record, if I run the sub sealed that rise in the corner poofs, the balloon at the listening position vanishes, and there's a very gentle net rolloff of about 4db per octave from 50hz down. It's the cleanest setting, as previously stated, but it does lower the Giggle Factor a bit.

This is all kind of moot though, really. We just comissioned new media room furniture, ordered new rugs, new couch, etc. Here in about 8 weeks when all that shows up, the VTF-3 is moving to the left of our couch and will be hidden by a custom alder shroud we're having built for it to match the new furniture. Once that happens the whole thing will need to be recalibrated.

Darn the luck.


editditeitedtediedit:

Re-reading the sentence you quoted I can see how you interpreted it. I phrased that very badly. No harm. No foul. Hopefully I've clarified things.

What are the dimensions of your basement? Can you post a drawing of your basement? Show where you sit in the basement. I would shift your HT 18 ft to your right! With the huge boost down low, you can select EQ2, Q=0.3 and still have strong 16 Hz, with 120 dB headroom at 16 Hz...
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post #2361 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 08:12 AM
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What are the dimensions of your basement? Can you post a drawing of your basement? Show where you sit in the basement. I would shift your HT 18 ft to your right! With the huge boost down low, you can select EQ2, Q=0.3 and still have strong 16 Hz, with 120 dB headroom at 16 Hz...

It's not a basement. This is the main shared area of the home. No basements where I live. But that also means the slab foundation is reinforcing to a degree, more than joists and subflooring would if a basement was below us.

As for providing a drawing, I'm not sure I'll have time to this week. I'm barely finding time to pop into the thread as is.

Speaking to your point, though: Yes, I could corner-load the sub. We've considered this, but that particular corner is over by a fireplace that is the focal point of that end of the overall space. There's a sitting area there now. The VTF-3 is a large sub, and wedging it into the corner behind a rocking chair... not so good. Add to the fact the the Mrs. is asking me to build her a banquette there. Totally not going to happen.

At any rate, the volume knob as-is never makes it past 11 o'clock, and is usually residing at 9:30. It's plenty, plenty loud.
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post #2362 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 08:31 AM
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post #2363 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 08:43 AM
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Does anyone else have a problem viewing the page on HSU web site? I can see every other models except that one.

The VTF-15H's product page is not loading in IE 9 for some reason, but Firefox loads it fine. IE 9's compatibility mode doesn't seem to make a difference. Not a web-dev, so I can't explain it.
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post #2364 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 09:45 AM
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Loads fine in Safari 5.1.4 I will check IE9 on my PC. Ok you are right it will load all but that sub very strange. It works fine in Firefox and Chrome so its definitely a Windows bug.
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post #2365 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Loads fine in Safari 5.1.4 I will check IE9 on my PC. Ok you are right it will load all but that sub very strange. It works fine in Firefox and Chrome so its definitely a Windows bug.

Or, since all of the other product pages load fine in IE9... it could be a code difference or tweakiness on the VTF-15H's page.
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post #2366 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleric View Post

Or, since all of the other product pages load fine in IE9... it could be a code difference or tweakiness on the VTF-15H's page.

Sorry guys. We put new photos with high resolution for the 15H product page. Maybe that is the problem? We will tweak it and make sure we check with IE. We use Firefox at work, so we were not aware of the issue. Will fix it ASAP! Thanks for the feedback.
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post #2367 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Alleric View Post

It's not a basement. This is the main shared area of the home. No basements where I live. But that also means the slab foundation is reinforcing to a degree, more than joists and subflooring would if a basement was below us.

As for providing a drawing, I'm not sure I'll have time to this week. I'm barely finding time to pop into the thread as is.

Speaking to your point, though: Yes, I could corner-load the sub. We've considered this, but that particular corner is over by a fireplace that is the focal point of that end of the overall space. There's a sitting area there now. The VTF-3 is a large sub, and wedging it into the corner behind a rocking chair... not so good. Add to the fact the the Mrs. is asking me to build her a banquette there. Totally not going to happen.

At any rate, the volume knob as-is never makes it past 11 o'clock, and is usually residing at 9:30. It's plenty, plenty loud.

No hurry. Post the drawing when you can!
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post #2368 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

No hurry. Post the drawing when you can!


dr_hsu, I haven't seen Pete post in a dogs age, is he ok?
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post #2369 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 04:53 PM
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dr_hsu, I haven't seen Pete post in a dogs age, is he ok?

Pete went back home to his family. He no longer works at HSU.

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post #2370 of 5186 Old 03-20-2012, 05:03 PM
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Thanks for the info. I have a history of PM's with him and found him to be an honest intelligent person. Wishing him the best.




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Pete went back home to his family. He no longer works at HSU.

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