The Official HSU VTF-15H Thread - Page 85 - AVS Forum
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post #2521 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 AM
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Yes. Aud had set it at -2 t the receiver and I set it to 0. Also, my 15H is at around the 9 am position.


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Originally Posted by eric-t View Post

I believe he means 2db above reference. That would be 77db.

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post #2522 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

...The third issue is its handling of phase, as I'm sure it doesn't handle it...

If YPAO is setting the distance of the subwoofer, then I believe it is adjusting phase at the crossover. It's my understanding that the distance setting is a delay to take into account latency, such as processing by a receiver or the subwoofer itself. Often, the physical distance is not the same as the acoustical distance set by auto EQ software.

A Nice Radio Station with Great Music. For Those That Like That Sort of Thing: RadioParadise.com

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post #2523 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 10:51 AM
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Saltyseven, your message box is full.

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post #2524 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shumi_9 View Post

No matter how ready you think you are going to be, they will always be bigger than expectations!!! They barely made it though the front door. As you can see I have a very good guard dog!!!

Congrats and cute....you have the woofer guarding the woofers.


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post #2525 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 11:39 AM
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Ypao is terrible for subs and it doesn't matter which model avr you have either. I love the 3010 aside from the ypao. I had to take control of my setup on manual settings. Setting my LCR at 40hz for starters and then manually setting the subs with test tones and a calibrated spl meter.

When I first plugged in my first vtf, I was disappointed. Then I realized the roll off on the peq results. I went on AVS and began searching and what do you know? Ypao murders subwoofers. I then manually calibrated the speakers and sub and shook the **** out of the house. I added th second sub and felt like I completed my biggest accomplishment in the world.

I began the hate train on ypao from there on out. When I look At the cost of the 3010 and the cost of the Denon 4311, I realized I made a huge mistake. I feel people who praise ypao are just avg joes with avg joe equip. They are the set it and forget it type.

If Yamaha would just lean toward audyssey, they would sell so many more avr's. But I understand your frustration with ypao. The HSU VTFs are animals and once you get the thing dialed in, you will soon realize what a powerhouse it is.
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post #2526 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Ypao is terrible for subs and it doesn't matter which model avr you have either. I love the 3010 aside from the ypao. I had to take control of my setup on manual settings. Setting my LCR at 40hz for starters and then manually setting the subs with test tones and a calibrated spl meter.

When I first plugged in my first vtf, I was disappointed. Then I realized the roll off on the peq results. I went on AVS and began searching and what do you know? Ypao murders subwoofers. I then manually calibrated the speakers and sub and shook the **** out of the house. I added th second sub and felt like I completed my biggest accomplishment in the world.

I began the hate train on ypao from there on out. When I look At the cost of the 3010 and the cost of the Denon 4311, I realized I made a huge mistake. I feel people who praise ypao are just avg joes with avg joe equip. They are the set it and forget it type.

If Yamaha would just lean toward audyssey, they would sell so many more avr's. But I understand your frustration with ypao. The HSU VTFs are animals and once you get the thing dialed in, you will soon realize what a powerhouse it is.

Are you trying to tell me to sell my Yamaha and trade to something else? Or is it not that bad to manually tune it??
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post #2527 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shumi_9 View Post

No matter how ready you think you are going to be, they will always be bigger than expectations!!! They barely made it though the front door. As you can see I have a very good guard dog!!!


Wowzers.... two of them? I see a fun weekend in your future.
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post #2528 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saltysteven View Post

Are you trying to tell me to sell my Yamaha and trade to something else? Or is it not that bad to manually tune it??

The 3010 is a super powerhouse receiver except for room correction. It's musical and has tons of options. However, it sucks with room correction and EQing subs.

You can dial it in using a calibrated spl meter and test tones. It takes a bit of time. Or you can go the direction of REW and a laptop to measure the sub(s) and calibrate it that way.

I've been happy calibrating each position using an spl meter. In my findings, my results have been much better then letting ypao do it. You can also unplug the sub, run ypao, then calibrate the sub by itself.

If I could sell my 3010 for a fair price, it would immediately be replaced by a Denon 4311ci because of audyssey and having the ability to upgrade it to pro. As it stands right now, I'm happy with my manual calibration. I'll look at replacing it next year or whenever the next level of audyssey hits in the Denon top tier line. I love Yamaha but charging the same price as a 4311 and using ypao instead of audyssey irks me. My opinion would be different if Yamaha would strive to update ypao on a constant basis and fix its short comings.

When I calibrate with a meter, I wear hearing protection. Reference level for calibration is really 85db but can damage hearing. So most of the avr's out there do the testing at 75db. Make sure you purchase a popular spl meter that has a calibration database such as the radio shack. All of the information can be found here on AVS with a quick search. Below I'll supply you a link on how to calibrate your speakers manually as a guide.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765
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post #2529 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post


The 3010 is a super powerhouse receiver except for room correction. It's musical and has tons of options. However, it sucks with room correction and EQing subs.

You can dial it in using a calibrated spl meter and test tones. It takes a bit of time. Or you can go the direction of REW and a laptop to measure the sub(s) and calibrate it that way.

I've been happy calibrating each position using an spl meter. In my findings, my results have been much better then letting ypao do it. You can also unplug the sub, run ypao, then calibrate the sub by itself.

If I could sell my 3010 for a fair price, it would immediately be replaced by a Denon 4311ci because of audyssey and having the ability to upgrade it to pro. As it stands right now, I'm happy with my manual calibration. I'll look at replacing it next year or whenever the next level of audyssey hits in the Denon top tier line. I love Yamaha but charging the same price as a 4311 and using ypao instead of audyssey irks me. My opinion would be different if Yamaha would strive to update ypao on a constant basis and fix its short comings.

When I calibrate with a meter, I wear hearing protection. Reference level for calibration is really 85db but can damage hearing. So most of the avr's out there do the testing at 75db. Make sure you purchase a popular spl meter that has a calibration database such as the radio shack. All of the information can be found here on AVS with a quick search. Below I'll supply you a link on how to calibrate your speakers manually as a guide.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

Thanks for the guide!
I have only the little a710 , does everything you said above still apply with the 710?
I want just the easiest way to get the most out of my sub with my Yamaha
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post #2530 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 01:39 PM
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I will say this. Audyssey has definitely improved over the years. In my older Onkyo that had Audyssey 2EQ, I turned it off after comparing manual calibration to Audyssey. With my newer Denon, I have been very happy with the results vs manual calibration.

For folks on a budget the Denon 1712 is a great deal as it has Audyssey MutiEQ XT. Hard to find that in a receiver that sells for $350 or so new and $250 refurbished.
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post #2531 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saltysteven View Post

Thanks for the guide!
I have only the little a710 , does everything you said above still apply with the 710?
I want just the easiest way to get the most out of my sub with my Yamaha

Absolutely!
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post #2532 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

Wonderful! Great to know that Radio shack actually has such good customer support! Thanks Sputter1!

My bad , when I said the Shack I meant Home Theater Shack, home of REW.
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post #2533 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 02:43 PM
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My bad , when I said the Shack I meant Home Theater Shack, home of REW.

Not a problem, sputter1. Thanks for the clarification.
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post #2534 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 02:43 PM
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This is real rough guys so bear with me, this is spl w/radio shack digital meter using corrected values. (1 port open, eq2 and Q= .3)

16 94.5
20 95.5
25 93
31.5 93
40 91.5
50 78.5
63 83.5
80 85.5
100 79
125 76.5

any thoughts?
PS sorry about formatting.
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post #2535 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald410 View Post

This is real rough guys so bear with me, this is spl w/radio shack digital meter using corrected values. (1 port open, eq2 and Q= .3)

16 94.5
20 95.5
25 93
31.5 93
40 91.5
50 78.5
63 83.5
80 85.5
100 79
125 76.5

any thoughts?
PS sorry about formatting.

This is sub + main speakers? 80 Hz crossover?

Very nice and flat from 40 Hz down to 16 Hz! 50 Hz is a bit low.
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post #2536 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

This is sub + main speakers? 80 Hz crossover?

Very nice and flat from 40 Hz down to 16 Hz! 50 Hz is a bit low.

Correct Dr, I noticed that as well (50hz)
That's with sub and main crossed over at 80hz.
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post #2537 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

I would try the sub as an end table between the two couches. Face the woofer and ports toward the couch facing the entertainment center. Sit in the left seat for best bass impact and punch. Play 80 Hz tone and switch the phase between 0 and 180 to see which position gives a stronger 80 Hz. Leave it in the position where 80 Hz is strongest. Set the sub for two ports open, EQ2, Q=0.3. Make sure crossover on 15H is set to out.

Do you mean 33-2055 Digital SPL meter? That meter's bass rolls off about 10 dB at 20 Hz, 6 dB at 25 Hz, 4 dB at 31.5 Hz, and 2 dB at 40 Hz. i.e. you add these numbers to the actual reading you get. You can enter these numbers for the REW calibration file.

Yes, I meant the 33-2205, I have corrected it in my post, thanks for the interpretation . I'll consider trying to squeeze in nearfield next to couch in listening postition. This has been the worst place that I have placed all my subs over the years with no benefit room of gain whatsoever and sounds dull. Not only that it's so easy to localize the sub. The only benefit is I can physically feel the subs when facing the couch (which I'd do with a 2nd or 3rd sub just to feel more, kind of a cheap buttkicker so to say). I'm not sure I'll have enough room to fit the sub sideways facing the couch, if I do then the sub cable will be pushed against the wall and the grill of the sub will be pressed against the couch. Not sure if touching the couch would be too close?

Mind you my comparisons with the other subs including H100 have been in the front left corner (exatcly where the 15H is now) where I was hearing and feeling the midbass punch in my chest from other subs that I'm not getting with the 15H. It's not a placement issue that I'm having, it's a sound issue. Thank you for the response, I'll exaust all my resources, tests, manual tuning etc to see what I can come up with first before I move that monster around and have to move all my furniture to squeze in that monster. By the way the 15H is a very nice looking sub!
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post #2538 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 04:42 PM
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Although unlike shumi_9, I have two dogs and one V15h, I am just as thrilled! The sad part is, for what each JRT cost me, I could have one dog and two V15s and be money ahead (I guess I could still use the argument that my wife got two dogs so I should get two V15s.....).
LL
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post #2539 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cdub563 View Post

Yes, I meant the 33-2205, I have corrected it in my post, thanks for the interpretation . I'll consider trying to squeeze in nearfield next to couch in listening postition. This has been the worst place that I have placed all my subs over the years with no benefit room of gain whatsoever and sounds dull. Not only that it's so easy to localize the sub. The only benefit is I can physically feel the subs when facing the couch (which I'd do with a 2nd or 3rd sub just to feel more, kind of a cheap buttkicker so to say). I'm not sure I'll have enough room to fit the sub sideways facing the couch, if I do then the sub cable will be pushed against the wall and the grill of the sub will be pressed against the couch. Not sure if touching the couch would be too close?

Mind you my comparisons with the other subs including H100 have been in the front left corner (exatcly where the 15H is now) where I was hearing and feeling the midbass punch in my chest from other subs that I'm not getting with the 15H. It's not a placement issue that I'm having, it's a sound issue. Thank you for the response, I'll exaust all my resources, tests, manual tuning etc to see what I can come up with first before I move that monster around and have to move all my furniture to squeze in that monster. By the way the 15H is a very nice looking sub!

Placement is key, better placement equals better response. Also 're-training' your ears to a decent sub takes a bit of time. Bloated peaky subs sound different and if that's what your used to then something more even sounding is a huge change.

I had one 15H behind my couch (before my duals) and I could never point it out even though I knew where it was. lol

Some folks love a house curve rather than a flat response. That's a personal choice.

I have a 4500^3 room and one 15H was decent. I went with duals to even out the seating response etc, now I have them co-located and i'm pretty happy with it.

I'm sure you'll work it out. Subs are not a drop 'n play item and it takes a bit of time to sort out each room.
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post #2540 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcastle View Post

Although unlike shumi_9, I have two dogs and one V15h, I am just as thrilled! The sad part is, for what each JRT cost me, I could have one dog and two V15s and be money ahead (I guess I could still use the argument that my wife got two dogs so I should get two V15s.....).

I wonder how they will like the new toy...

Congrats!
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post #2541 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdub563 View Post


Yes, I meant the 33-2205, I have corrected it in my post, thanks for the interpretation . I'll consider trying to squeeze in nearfield next to couch in listening postition. This has been the worst place that I have placed all my subs over the years with no benefit room of gain whatsoever and sounds dull. Not only that it's so easy to localize the sub. The only benefit is I can physically feel the subs when facing the couch (which I'd do with a 2nd or 3rd sub just to feel more, kind of a cheap buttkicker so to say). I'm not sure I'll have enough room to fit the sub sideways facing the couch, if I do then the sub cable will be pushed against the wall and the grill of the sub will be pressed against the couch. Not sure if touching the couch would be too close?

Mind you my comparisons with the other subs including H100 have been in the front left corner (exatcly where the 15H is now) where I was hearing and feeling the midbass punch in my chest from other subs that I'm not getting with the 15H. It's not a placement issue that I'm having, it's a sound issue. Thank you for the response, I'll exaust all my resources, tests, manual tuning etc to see what I can come up with first before I move that monster around and have to move all my furniture to squeze in that monster. By the way the 15H is a very nice looking sub!

From everything that has been discussed, I would unplug your sub, rerun YAPO, then turn your sub back on and manually set it up before anything else. It may fix your issue.
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post #2542 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdub563 View Post

Yes, I meant the 33-2205, I have corrected it in my post, thanks for the interpretation . I'll consider trying to squeeze in nearfield next to couch in listening postition. This has been the worst place that I have placed all my subs over the years with no benefit room of gain whatsoever and sounds dull. Not only that it's so easy to localize the sub. The only benefit is I can physically feel the subs when facing the couch (which I'd do with a 2nd or 3rd sub just to feel more, kind of a cheap buttkicker so to say). I'm not sure I'll have enough room to fit the sub sideways facing the couch, if I do then the sub cable will be pushed against the wall and the grill of the sub will be pressed against the couch. Not sure if touching the couch would be too close?

Mind you my comparisons with the other subs including H100 have been in the front left corner (exactly where the 15H is now) where I was hearing and feeling the midbass punch in my chest from other subs that I'm not getting with the 15H. It's not a placement issue that I'm having, it's a sound issue. Thank you for the response, I'll exhaust all my resources, tests, manual tuning etc to see what I can come up with first before I move that monster around and have to move all my furniture to squeeze in that monster. By the way the 15H is a very nice looking sub!

When you setup the measurement system, do measure the response at your listening position with the 15H where you have it now, and the H100 in the same location. Also note down what volume setting on the 15H and on the H100 to get the same SPL at your chair at 40 Hz.

And make sure you try what ack_bk suggests!
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post #2543 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 05:52 PM
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Thanks for all the responses and help. IDK where to start with all the questions


Eric, thank you for the updated add values

Ack- YPAO is setting my distance at 12.4'. With a tape measure I am at 11'6" from center of sub to YPAO mic. The sub is 90* to the listening postition facing the TV and not me, maybe that's why the xtra length? I am not sure how to turn off YPAO? I can do an auto set up or manual set up, but the only thing I can manually adjust with the manual setting on sub is the X-over 40hz-200hz, sub on or off, and reference level -10 to +10 (which I adjust + after the measurements), I can't adjust distance, just ref. levels. About the only thing I could try is rerun YPAO and unhook sub but I'm sure this V667 amp does not EQ the Sub, but I hope I'm wrong. It has a parametric EQ but when I set to manual only has options to adjust speakers, no sub. I read that Epik thread but not sure they just turning off YPAO?

Jack- any chance I'm just missing the sub in my PEQ, it's NOT in mine My firmware is version 1.14 and thr most current on Yamah site is V2.05 but I hear it's all the way up to 2.11 i don't know if V2.05 would make any difference? Where are you located in AZ? I'm in Surprise. I'd love to hear how a properly set up system sounds.

Shumi- congrats! These things are BIG and the whole box is a beast, I was kind of everwhelmed. Looking at the measurements in your head is a little deceiving vs when it's sitting in your living room.

Venemous- Thank you for the info and link, I'll start reading and see if I can get it figured out. What are a few decent mics. not too expensive I can get at Radio Shack for this? Darnit, guess my next purchase or two will be something with Audessy, that stinks as this is a pretty decent amp and am fairly happy but would be nice to upgrade. I wonder if I am just missing some sub setting on my Yammy or do they just not exsit on this V667? Para EQ only has speakers available, no sub.

Dr HSU-I just got the meter yesterday and have yet to test and get readings yet. Should I just measure results at 2Meters and ground plane center of subs? Listening postion or both that you're referring to? I'll probably do both to see what I'm actually getting out of the subs 2M at first then listening position for comparision.

I hate to turn this into a YPAO tutorial but maybe this will be good for HSU when they troubleshoot and ask the customer "What amp brand and are you running YPAO"?

Thanks for the help and all the knowledge, my head is spinning haha! I'll get there, hopefully just sooner then later

Update: Just ran YPAO with sub turned off. It pretty much nails the distance of the speakers right on. Went back into menu and only options still are Sub yes/no, Sub X-over, and level -10 to +10 so nothings changed. I wonder if this is actually EQ'ing the sub or the distance set from YPAO is just presetting the refernce level as it sees fit from -10db to +10db
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post #2544 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald410 View Post

Correct Dr, I noticed that as well (50hz)
That's with sub and main crossed over at 80hz.

Where is the sub currently placed in your room?

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post #2545 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Where is the sub currently placed in your room?

Front wall about 8 inches out and about 4.5 feet out from side wall. Outside of the suck out at 50hz, I like that it's fairly flat from 40hz down to 16hz
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post #2546 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gerald410 View Post

Front wall about 8 inches out and about 4.5 feet out from side wall. Outside of the suck out at 50hz, I like that it's fairly flat from 40hz down to 16hz

You might be able to make the dip at 50Hz slightly better by moving the sub out from the front wall another 4".

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post #2547 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fcastle View Post

Although unlike shumi_9, I have two dogs and one V15h, I am just as thrilled! The sad part is, for what each JRT cost me, I could have one dog and two V15s and be money ahead (I guess I could still use the argument that my wife got two dogs so I should get two V15s.....).

fcastle,
I think we started a trend...you have to baptise the new arrival by placing your dog(s) on top of the darn thing, otherwise it is bad luck!

Anyway, one flight of stairs with two of these monsters, plus arranging one on top of a previous sub to place it at ear's height for the upcoming sub crawl and I am about ready to puke my guts out...I hope my back is ok. I did get help from wife, but she was out of commission after the first few minutes, something about chest pain, not sure.
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post #2548 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

You might be able to make the dip at 50Hz slightly better by moving the sub out from the front wall another 4".

I will try later and re-test, thx for the advice.
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post #2549 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by shumi_9 View Post

fcastle,
I think we started a trend...you have to baptise the new arrival by placing your dog(s) on top of the darn thing, otherwise it is bad luck!

Anyway, one flight of stairs with two of these monsters, plus arranging one on top of a previous sub to place it at ear's height for the upcoming sub crawl and I am about ready to puke my guts out...I hope my back is ok. I did get help from wife, but she was out of commission after the first few minutes, something about chest pain, not sure.

You should have had your dog help you pull them up the stairs ...
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post #2550 of 5188 Old 04-05-2012, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

You should have had your dog help you pull them up the stairs ...

I think you are onto something there, sir!

So I am off for the next four days and am going to do my best to dial in the V15h. I also just got an Onkyo 809 (replacing an Onkyo NR901) so I will be setting that up as well. In addition, because of the capabilities of the 809, I will also be adding front heights (cannot do rear surround as you will see).

Dr. Hsu - can you give me some initial thoughts/suggestions about my layout and positioning of the V15? I have attached a pic of my room and I apologize for its lameness.

I will make a couple notes about it. First, the TV is actually on a long Ikea console so, although I could put the sub in either of the front corners, that would cause me to permanently have my Aperion VGTs out in the room which my wife has nixed. I usually move the speakers out during movies and then move them back again for regular TV viewing.

The open kitchen is the same distance front to back (like the TV to couch distance), but is about 17 feet long. 8' ceilings all around. There is a large island in the middle of the kitchen.

As a result of the above, the only two spots for the sub are on either side of the couch unless I am missing something.

Does it matter which way the sub is "pointing" (back toward the fireplace wall or window wall? What settings should I start with prior to the calibration process? I do have an RS SPL and plan on setting up and using REW.

Thanks for any suggestions from the group as well!
LL
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