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post #691 of 718 Old 03-31-2011, 02:06 PM
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If you want to see how awesome your room is compared to mine, I posted some info here. The second graph shows close mic vs lp

I have like no room gain
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post #692 of 718 Old 03-31-2011, 02:23 PM
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Well despite that I think you're puttin up numbers that anyone would be happy with. I'm sure only you would know if you had any weakness from top to bottom cause I can't see any.
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post #693 of 718 Old 03-31-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

MKT, it looks like your RS Digital SPL meter is in the ballpark when you apply the straight SPL C scale compensation factors. Your close mic FR curve now shows close to a 2nd order rolloff from 20 to 10 Hz.

Now at least Bosso has a decent starting point for an updated analysis. It looks to be about 17 dB of room gain at 10 Hz instead of the 30 dB of room gain that Bosso calculated earlier.

Man, I wish it were true, but the truth is, I give up on this one. I haven't found 2 traces anywhere that even resemble each other. I've done literally hundreds of close mic measurements and all of them were +/-1dB from the quasi-anechoic measurements.

Here's MKT's previous trace, his latest trace and the CHT model that they claim is 'more accurate than a close mic', which supposedly has the EQ boost applied. I could put 10 posted traces on this graph and no 2 look like the same sub.



A while back I used my digital RS meter, 1/12 octave sine tones and an old correction file against my mic and it was accurate enough to convey a close mic measurement that could be used for this exercise, so I just don't know what the malfunction is here, but I'm certain that the latest trace is not accurate enough to crunch the numbers.

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post #694 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Man, I wish it were true, but the truth is, I give up on this one. I haven't found 2 traces anywhere that even resemble each other. I've done literally hundreds of close mic measurements and all of them were +/-1dB from the quasi-anechoic measurements.

Here's MKT's previous trace, his latest trace and the CHT model that they claim is 'more accurate than a close mic', which supposedly has the EQ boost applied. I could put 10 posted traces on this graph and no 2 look like the same sub.



A while back I used my digital RS meter, 1/12 octave sine tones and an old correction file against my mic and it was accurate enough to convey a close mic measurement that could be used for this exercise, so I just don't know what the malfunction is here, but I'm certain that the latest trace is not accurate enough to crunch the numbers.

Bosso


Yup, I don't know what is going on with these close mic measurements.

Your comparison above was with a model that had bass boost applied. MKT does not use the bass boost because of his room. Regardless, I am not sure why you tried that exact comparison. MKT is not trying to prove the model.

You said " I've done literally hundreds of close mic measurements and all of them were +/-1dB from the quasi-anechoic measurements." How did each of those measurements compare with the model?
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post #695 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 02:29 AM
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There seems to be a question about how difficult it is to take an accurate close mic measurement.


Just for fun, I tried a few close mic measurements of my NHT 2.9 speakers. This speaker is a 4-way speaker with a 10" sealed driver that uses a passive crossover at 100 Hz. For the measurement microphone I used my RS Digital SPL meter set to the 100 dB C scale, and applied straight standard SPL C scale compensation factors. Close mic sweeps.

SPL level was calibrated for REW and TrueRTA. REW used 250Hz as the upper sweep level.

My room has little room gain.

Sweeps vary below 13 Hz because of room gain and whatever.

General conclusion. It is difficult to measure FR below 15 Hz in my room (little room gain). Also, the Stereophile reference varies from my close mic measurements around 70 to 100 Hz.

I suspect that room gain in MKT's room shows up in his close mic measurement. Then again, he may be doing something else that I do not have any knowledge about.




True RTA

Top curve is average of 5 sweeps, smoothed to 1/6 octave.

Middle curves are 5 sweeps overlaid. I took more sweeps, but tossed out the ones that looked real jagged below 15 Hz.

Bottom two curves shows Pink Noise with 100 averages compared with the top curve (averaged smoothed sweep). Same results.









REW

9 sweeps. Variations at frequencies below 13 Hz.









From Stereophile




LL
LL
LL
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post #696 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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My first close mic was with my sub in a corner and I put the mic as close as possible but it was also up against the side wall which is why it probably had that hump. The last time I did the close mic I pulled the sub halfway between my screen and my seats right in the middle. The best I can do in my room away from walls. I then placed the mic dead center as close as possible to the driver and than ran the sweep. If anything I would say my last one is a much better setup as close mic's are concerned but there is boundary gain at 30hz which I can not do anything about.
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post #697 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Well, we know that we can't really rely on correct information from there, so it would be nice if Ricci would confirm.

I have asked the question in Ricci's thread here(AVS).

Looks like we have 2nd party confirmation on CHT subs being tested by Ricci:

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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

As of now it looks like CHT will be sending me their single sealed 18" sub the CS18.1 and their new vented sub the VS18.1 in the next couple of weeks.

That would make this the current total line-up of commercial HT subs for the upcoming test round. Hopefully 1 or 2 more will be added in the next week or 2.

Rythmik FV15-HP
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post #698 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 06:40 AM
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if you do close mics, you may be better off doing it with doors open and the sub lifted off the ground. lower levels may help as well
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post #699 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Does concrete floors help and I agree about lower levels.
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post #700 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

if you do close mics, you may be better off doing it with doors open and the sub lifted off the ground. lower levels may help as well



Good point. Kind of hard to move that sub off of the ground. MKT could try to leave the doors open to his room and lower the SPL test levels.

An outside measurement would be better, but it is still winter up north. It snowed last night and this AM!
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post #701 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Does concrete floors help and I agree about lower levels.


I used the 100 dB C scale on the RS SPL meter with C scale factors in REW set to on.

At the close mic position, for REW I activated the SPL calibration set to slow. With the SPL meter placed at the close mic position I measured 95 dB SPL C scale on the SPL meter and set the REW SPL meter to that calibration value.

I did the REW sweeps with a -15 dB FS sweep level, with an upper frequency limit of 250 Hz.

I used -15 dB FS for the pink noise test also. Not very loud at all!

In addition, do at least 9 sweeps and see how they line up. Throw out the crazy ones. Then take an average of all of them. Two charts would be nice. One for the Average and one for all 9 curves overlayed.
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post #702 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I know I have about 18db's of room gain from my last 2 sub setups and this was the whole point. The Danley's are down about 18db's at 10-12hz and I was flat to 10hz with the right placement and no EQ. Here was the graph I did.

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post #703 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matman1970 View Post

Looks like we have 2nd party confirmation on CHT subs being tested by Ricci:

That's great....now some things can be put to rest.

I don't like the "looks" part though.

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post #704 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:37 AM
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MKT, at his point all you are doing is an academic exercise and gaining experience in close mic meaurements.

Room gain varies by frequency. Your room gain at 10Hz is about 18 dB if your baseline is accurate. What is it at 20 and 30 Hz? Hard to know unless your baseline close mic is accurate.
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post #705 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

if you do close mics, you may be better off doing it with doors open and the sub lifted off the ground. lower levels may help as well

30 Hz has a wavelength of 38 feet, so I don't see what raising it off the floor would do, and levels are lower by default at .5" distance to avoid clipping the mic/SC.

I wonder if MKT used a neutral amplifier he might get a better representation of the naked response?

I also never use the SW out for close mic measurements because they usually have a global LPF in line. If you set your mains to large and use one of the FR/FL outs, you'll get an unfiltered signal to the amp.

I've never used the RS meter as a mic, so I'm no help in that department.

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post #706 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

MKT, at his point all you are doing is an academic exercise and gaining experience in close mic meaurements.

Room gain varies by frequency. Your room gain at 10Hz is about 18 dB if your baseline is accurate. What is it at 20 and 30 Hz? Hard to know unless your baseline close mic is accurate.

I understand that but I was really interested in 10hz and really don't have to worry about 20-30hz.
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post #707 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


I also never use the SW out for close mic measurements because they usually have a global LPF in line. If you set your mains to large and use one of the FR/FL outs, you'll get an unfiltered signal to the amp.

Bosso


Good point. I forgot about that issue. MKT will have to answer the question on how he connects the subwoofer power amplifier to his PC audio output.

I suppose one could move the R & L crossover as high as it can go. That would be 200 Hz in my receiver. Then again, I do not use the subwoofer output jack.
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post #708 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I understand that but I was really interested in 10hz and really don't have to worry about 20-30hz.


Actually you don't have to worry about most of this. It's all academic but interesting to know!
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post #709 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Jeeze, it seems that in response to criticism about a lack of numbers the CHT crew is now going to inundate us with graphs. I, for one, have no interest in how multiple subs perform in someone else's sealed basement. Sorry, that doesn't help anyone except the guy with an identical basement planning on buying the same number of subs! How about concentrating on outdoor numbers, that can be compared from one sub to the next? Let's leave the room out of it and get a real data bass going.

You know what is funny here is that I intend on TRYING to redesign my room to something similar to what MK has.

Also this is just MK's adventure and he SHOULD be allowed to post what he wants but there should be clarifications so that others do not misread what he has posted. To use MK's measurements/discussions as a comparison of sub designs will lead to inaccurate conclusions.


There is only one conclusion for......


Im still envious of his room and setup

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post #710 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Actually you don't have to worry about most of this. It's all academic but interesting to know!

I know, it is fun learning things.

My RS meter is connected to my PC and then the PC goes to the L and R of input 1 of my many analog connections. My amps are connected thru the SW output on my processor but I can change what mode to use and whether small or large on any input.
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post #711 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know, it is fun learning things.

My RS meter is connected to my PC and then the PC goes to the L and R of input 1 of my many analog connections. My amps are connected thru the SW output on my processor but I can change what mode to use and whether small or large on any input.


You can check to see what your receiver does between the audio input and subwoofer output by connecting the subwoofer output jack of your receiver into the PC audio input. Just unplug the RS meter and plug in the receiver SW output and do a sweep. Make sure levels are low enough so you do not clip the PC audio board input.

I assume that Audyssey is not being used.
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post #712 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't have any EQ except in my sub amps.
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post #713 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You know what is funny here is that I intend on TRYING to redesign my room to something similar to what MK has.

Also this is just MK's adventure and he SHOULD be allowed to post what he wants but there should be clarifications so that others do not misread what he has posted. To use MK's measurements/discussions as a comparison of sub designs will lead to inaccurate conclusions.


There is only one conclusion for......


Im still envious of his room and setup

I agree with you! Again, having room gain is a good thing so we don't need monsters like LMS5400's. Al rooms have gain some just more than others. Concrete is great for gains.
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post #714 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 09:16 AM
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This is a fun thread.

You get to learn a lot on someone else's nickle.

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post #715 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I agree with you! Again, having room gain is a good thing so we don't need monsters like LMS5400's. Al rooms have gain some just more than others. Concrete is great for gains.

... to add, and not that you're implying this, many do comment that the LMS5400's SQ is above what they've experienced with other subs regardless of measurement comparisons. E.g., Paul's recent review of the FW12.0 sub ...

Quote:


It must be said here, measurements alone do not adequately explain the unique sound of this sub. The tonal character is not matched by any of the other shootout entrants.

I'd love to hear one compared to another sub in the same room (level and FR matched,bla bla bla), preferably in some sort of blind test to see how true the above statements holds.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #716 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

... to add, and not that you're implying this, many do comment that the LMS5400's SQ is above what they've experienced with other subs regardless of measurement comparisons. E.g., Paul's recent review of the FW12.0 sub ...



I'd love to hear one compared to another sub in the same room (level and FR matched,bla bla bla), preferably in some sort of blind test to see how true the above statements holds.

I know, take 2 systems that play reference levels during a movie from 10-80hz. Both systems are flat or +/- 3 db's in that frequency and both can provide distortion under 5% with no compression at said levels. The big question is do they sound different? Some say yes and some say no. I can tell you there are more similarities than differences and the differences are small when sighted. Blind testing would be interesting indeed. Hey, I used to own all McIntosh and did a blind test to my guys vs all EP-2500's and I sold all the Mac's after the test and bought more subs with the extra money.
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post #717 of 718 Old 04-01-2011, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know, take 2 systems that play reference levels during a movie from 10-80hz. Both systems are flat or +/- 3 db's in that frequency and both can provide distortion under 5% with no compression at said levels. The big question is do they sound different? Some say yes and some say no. I can tell you there are more similarities than differences and the differences are small when sighted. Blind testing would be interesting indeed. Hey, I used to own all McIntosh and did a blind test to my guys vs all EP-2500's and I sold all the Mac's after the test and bought more subs with the extra money.

I agree, I recall how tough it was to pick the sub with the best SQ when a few of us blind tested the PB13/JLF113/EP600/DD18 (after trying to match the FRs using an SMS-1). Having said that, it may have been easier with a "lesser quality" sub (whatever that means) than that line up.

I recall some guy trying to sell me his $1k or $2k DAC and trying to convince me it would sound better than my AVR at the time (Onkyo 886 or Integra 9.8?). I was flipping back and forth between using the AVR DAC and the external, and after a while try as I might couldn't tell a difference or if I did it was so minute I couldn't tell if it was actually there or in my head. At one point the guy started to say "see how much tighter the bass sounds right now and how much more air you're getting from the recording" or some nonsense like that, at which point I politely said "actually I'm still on the AVR DAC"... needless to say, I told him I wasn't interested in the DAC.

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #718 of 718 Old 04-04-2011, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My first close mic was with my sub in a corner and I put the mic as close as possible but it was also up against the side wall which is why it probably had that hump. The last time I did the close mic I pulled the sub halfway between my screen and my seats right in the middle. The best I can do in my room away from walls. I then placed the mic dead center as close as possible to the driver and than ran the sweep. If anything I would say my last one is a much better setup as close mic's are concerned but there is boundary gain at 30hz which I can not do anything about.




Interesting comments on in room close mic testing errors.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post20253774
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