Dual DTS-10's and dual CS 18.2's - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That's the best looking response curve I've ever seen from your room. I'm amazed that you didn't quit upgrading right there.

Which one? My newest one is actually better but I did not turn it up yet. That eD graph was 10 db increments and the new one is 5db.
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post #92 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:18 AM
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I'm referring to the old 8-18" curve.
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post #93 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:33 AM
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mk, do you still like the danley's? Have you or anyone else heard the jtr orbit shifter? I have seen some pics of the outside of the orbit shifter but it doesn't look like a horn compared to the danley (haven't seen the insides of the orbit shifter though).
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post #94 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
I'm referring to the old 8-18" curve.
If you look closer you will see that graph goes from 121-122dbs to 110 dbs, so +/-6 dbs. The newer one goes from 85-92dbs or +/-3.5dbs.
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post #95 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by musicaddict View Post
mk, do you still like the danley's? Have you or anyone else heard the jtr orbit shifter? I have seen some pics of the outside of the orbit shifter but it doesn't look like a horn compared to the danley (haven't seen the insides of the orbit shifter though).
Never heard the OS. Yes, I still like the Danleys.
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post #96 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
If you look closer you will see that graph goes from 121-122dbs to 110 dbs, so +/-6 dbs. The newer one goes from 85-92dbs or +/-3.5dbs.
Good point, but still it looks so smooth and extended.
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post #97 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Good point, but still it looks so smooth and extended.
I will post the same graph with 10db increments. It did go from 5-80hz and this one goes from 8.79-72hz. Let's wait for the front placement. I will try to get each set flat as possible(with placement) and see if I can fit all 4 up there(that will be very tricky if impossible).
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post #98 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 09:17 AM
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The idea of running the Danley's together vs separate with the 18.2 is an interesting one. Perhaps letting the Danley's work below the 30-40hz range and running the 18.2 above the 30-40hz range will be your best set-up. You get the killer low end the Danley's provide with the improved mid-bass of the 18.2. It should make your room bass integration easier to set-up too (not having to dial in two separate brand subs) doing the same frequency. Anyways, have fun testing both methods and sub placement options in your room.
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post #99 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post
The idea of running the Danley's together vs separate with the 18.2 is an interesting one. Perhaps letting the Danley's work below the 30-40hz range and running the 18.2 above the 30-40hz range will be your best set-up. You get the killer low end the Danley's provide with the improved mid-bass of the 18.2. It should make your room bass integration easier to set-up too (not having to dial in two separate brand subs) doing the same frequency. Anyways, have fun testing both methods and sub placement options in your room.
I think you are right but I have to try out all the options.
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post #100 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 12:13 PM
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Time for a bigger room, break out the backhoe!

T6

Clearwave 4TSE and 4CC build thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19489740
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post #101 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 12:33 PM
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Like others have mentioned already, We should be aware that MKs rooms is like no other I have seen measurements from. He has the best room for low frequency gain meaning you put any quality sub in that room and he is going to have great low frequency peformance. We have seen measurements from similar designs in other rooms that do not remotely match his room.

Sadly, His performance and conclusions are not going to match ours.

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post #102 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That's the best looking response curve I've ever seen from your room. I'm amazed that you didn't quit upgrading right there.

He will come full circle at some point

Nothing can replace displacement down low.

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post #103 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 12:41 PM
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Is the room/positioning removing all of the mid bass from the Danley or is it EQed that way? Its natural outdoor plots show a rising response in the mid bass rather than vice versa.
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post #104 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

He will come full circle at some point

Nothing can replace displacement down low.

I agree, but right now with 4 18's and 2 dts-10's extension is not difficult. Wait until I put them in front. I will admit that sealed subs are much easier to get flat in my room because wherever the tune is on a ported sun creates a huge peak in my room.
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post #105 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 12:55 PM
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Extension with that much displacement is easy and your room is just amazing.

If you are still going to run them together, I do not see why putting in front together is beneficial. Other then doing some measurements for others. There is a lot of tweaking that is needed to get them to play properly together do you have the ability to set individual delays??

I would place the 18s around the room to smooth out the upper bass response.

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post #106 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Extension with that much displacement is easy and your room is just amazing.

If you are still going to run them together, I do not see why putting in front together is beneficial. Other then doing some measurements for others. There is a lot of tweaking that is needed to get them to play properly together do you have the ability to set individual delays??

I would place the 18s around the room to smooth out the upper bass response.

Penn, I already got them +/- 3.5 dbs from 8-72hz together without EQ the way they are.
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post #107 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Penn, I already got them +/- 3.5 dbs from 8-72hz together without EQ the way they are.

Right, so the move to the front to combine them all is just a test?

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post #108 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Right, so the move to the front to combine them all is just a test?

Yes, I really want to see the Danleys orientated differently as I remember having them much flatter. I think I was moving them around for the best sound and ended up like this but I never measured them here.
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post #109 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes, I really want to see the Danleys orientated differently as I remember having them much flatter. I think I was moving them around for the best sound and ended up like this but I never measured them here.

So, even though you moved the DT's around till you found the best sound, you are going to move them for best looking FR graph? Or am I missing that the 18 inchers are going to somehow negate the best sound placement you got without the 18's?
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post #110 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

...... He has the best room for low frequency gain meaning you put any quality sub in that room and he is going to have great low frequency peformance. We have seen measurements from similar designs in other rooms that do not remotely match his room.......

Another nice, small, bunker like, high PVG room, is Japan Dave's on the Seaton forum.

He is aproaching it with ample LF displacement.

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post #111 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

So, even though you moved the DT's around till you found the best sound, you are going to move them for best looking FR graph? Or am I missing that the 18 inchers are going to somehow negate the best sound placement you got without the 18's?

Best sound without knowing how much midbass I was missing. I am experimenting right now. I do want to make an apples to apples comparison and I will run the DTS-10's with a 5hz amp as my ashly's rolloff at 10hz so they may go even deeper in my room. I don't think so because I have used the EP-4000's with them and I think they rolled off at the same spot.

Let's keep this fun. I know I am having fun. When I tried the SHO-10's and knew going in that my JBL should be better, I have the same idea with this.
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post #112 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 03:25 PM
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"LTD02, the question why was for this:
When my CS 18.2's were flattened and leveled matched to the Danleys they still did not have the same amount of low end brute force. They were +/-5dbs to 7hz to my XO. That is the why, if both systems were flat to 7-9hz and level matched they should both have the same low end, no?"

no. the danleys are somewhere around 12db more sensitive at 20hz than an 18.2, so the 18.2's will require almost ~15-20 times as much power to hit the same spl. the massive low end grunt coming out of your danleys when eq'd the same as the 18.2's is likely the result of this higher spl capability and to a lesser extent either a lack of amplifier clipping or a lack of power compression in the drivers themselves. a fairer 20hz fight might be two or three 18.2's vs one dts-10. danley built them large precisely to achieve high sensitivity at low frequencies.

[edit: had to re-adjust the numbers. i keep forgetting that danley uses 2.83v, not 1w sensitivity.]

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post #113 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 03:42 PM
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just so that it is clear to everybody, craig's approach to the cs18.2 design, in my humble opinion, is very, very good. it is a winner in its class.

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post #114 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks LTD02. Here is my next question. Assuming I have enough amp power for either design(I do) and I am not running max spl's(I am not) setting both subs to the same level and having a similar response curve they should hit say 120 db's at 20hz when called upon because neither are at their limits, no? I put the CS 18.2's purposely in the back corners because I get a 10db boost back there compared to the front so any advantage the Danleys have should be wiped out. I guess I can leave the CS's where they are and get them flat and then orientate the DTS's so they are flat and then compare. To be honest with my room the advantage should go to the cs's with that 10db gain. I am going to test this first.
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post #115 of 718 Old 11-24-2010, 07:21 PM
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"Here is my next question. Assuming I have enough amp power for either design(I do) and I am not running max spl's(I am not) setting both subs to the same level and having a similar response curve they should hit say 120 db's at 20hz when called upon because neither are at their limits, no?"

mk, i kind of hate to say this, but i'm thinking that your assumptions may be wrong on this one and maybe even your measuring technique. how did you establish that you have enough amp power and that neither your subs are clipping nor your speakers compressing from high current?

the first step would be to eliminate differences in placement. measure both subs in the same spot.

the second step would be to eliminate differences in e.q. as you have posted, yours are huge. this affects frequency dependent efficiency. the sealed subs will require a lot of eq (low end boost) relative to the dts subs.

the third step would be to eliminate differences in the amplifier (i.e. pick one and swap it between the subs.)

now measure each one and see how it performs.

the danley is going to have a ton more low end efficiency (in the bottom octave and a half or so 10-30hz).

predicted is a cleaner, meaner, lower, louder subjective sound. this is what you report. no surprises here.

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post #116 of 718 Old 11-25-2010, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Another nice, small, bunker like, high PVG room, is Japan Dave's on the Seaton forum.

He is aproaching it with ample LF displacement.

Thanks,


Maybe my HT 2.0 project should include modifying my room height to get higher PVG.

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post #117 of 718 Old 11-25-2010, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Another nice, small, bunker like, high PVG room, is Japan Dave's on the Seaton forum.

He is aproaching it with ample LF displacement.

Man the attention to detail in Japan Dave's room is on another level!
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post #118 of 718 Old 11-26-2010, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"Here is my next question. Assuming I have enough amp power for either design(I do) and I am not running max spl's(I am not) setting both subs to the same level and having a similar response curve they should hit say 120 db's at 20hz when called upon because neither are at their limits, no?"

mk, i kind of hate to say this, but i'm thinking that your assumptions may be wrong on this one and maybe even your measuring technique. how did you establish that you have enough amp power and that neither your subs are clipping nor your speakers compressing from high current?

the first step would be to eliminate differences in placement. measure both subs in the same spot.

the second step would be to eliminate differences in e.q. as you have posted, yours are huge. this affects frequency dependent efficiency. the sealed subs will require a lot of eq (low end boost) relative to the dts subs.

the third step would be to eliminate differences in the amplifier (i.e. pick one and swap it between the subs.)

now measure each one and see how it performs.

the danley is going to have a ton more low end efficiency (in the bottom octave and a half or so 10-30hz).

predicted is a cleaner, meaner, lower, louder subjective sound. this is what you report. no surprises here.
I am hearing a more pronounced low end from the Danleys because I have a huge peak there. I am right now moving them all over to bring down that peak. Moving 2 300 pounds subs all day is not fun but all this time the Danley's low end has been 10-15dbs higher than its midbass. When I compare other subs to them they all lack the low end due to this giant peak. I am posting some graphs to show what I mean. The Danleys do not lack any midbass, it was just the position in my room. I have moved them to 4 different locations and now hauling them in the back just to measure them. I want to bring down that peak and then listen to see if that was the difference.
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post #119 of 718 Old 11-27-2010, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I am hearing a more pronounced low end from the Danleys because I have a huge peak there. I am right now moving them all over to bring down that peak. Moving 2 300 pounds subs all day is not fun but all this time the Danley's low end has been 10-15dbs higher than its midbass. When I compare other subs to them they all lack the low end due to this giant peak. I am posting some graphs to show what I mean. The Danleys do not lack any midbass, it was just the position in my room. I have moved them to 4 different locations and now hauling them in the back just to measure them. I want to bring down that peak and then listen to see if that was the difference.
I use those furniture slider pucks and it makes moving mine pretty easy.

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post #120 of 718 Old 11-27-2010, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I have to lift them up above my steps. I am putting them in the back to measure them.
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