Velodyne Digital Drive Plus subwoofer information now posted - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Velodyne DD-Plus subwoofer information is now posted on their website. I can't wait to hear a Velodyne DD-18+.

http://velodyne.com/vproducts/series.aspx?seriesid=1235
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post #2 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 03:40 PM
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Ha, I was just about to buy an Optimum 10...but now something new to think about.

Might be the first time ever that WAF causes a guy to get an UPGRADE in bass.

the new Walnut finish is huge!

Ethernet connection kinda cool.
http://www.velodyne.com/news/hi-res_..._300%20dpi.jpg

I called my local retailer and they didn't know about it.
If anyone has a price list (or knows where to buy) please post.
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post #3 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:00 PM
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I'm sure it's going to be a nice sounding sub, but does anyone else find it a little disappointing that after all these years they didn't see fit to give it more power than it's ancestor? I'm sure it will be priced well up there like the high-end Paradigms and JL's, but will most likely fall short on output just like it's predecessor.

Personally if I was looking for a higher-end sealed sub on a $3000+ budget, I'd be going after a Seaton Submersive HP with a premium finish along with an SMS-1. That's just me. Opinions can and will vary.
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post #4 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'm sure it's going to be a nice sounding sub, but does anyone else find it a little disappointing that after all these years they didn't see fit to give it more power than it's ancestor? I'm sure it will be priced well up there like the high-end Paradigms and JL's, but will most likely fall short on output just like it's predecessor.

Personally if I was looking for a higher-end sealed sub on a $3000+ budget, I'd be going after a Seaton Submersive HP with a premium finish along with an SMS-1. That's just me. Opinions can and will vary.

I was about to post the same. I have an HGS-18 (circa '00) sitting in the closet, and if I put it with an SMS-1 I doubt anyone could here a difference in it and this offering. I was expecting a significant change in their next lineup for the prices they ask.

Also, with more and more affordable receivers with Multi EQ XT and XT32 becoming available, I don't see the big draw for built in eq'ing anymore.

EDIT: Is harmonic distortion really an audible problem under 100hz with most decent subs today?

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #5 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'm sure it's going to be a nice sounding sub, but does anyone else find it a little disappointing that after all these years they didn't see fit to give it more power than it's ancestor? I'm sure it will be priced well up there like the high-end Paradigms and JL's, but will most likely fall short on output just like it's predecessor.

Personally if I was looking for a higher-end sealed sub on a $3000+ budget, I'd be going after a Seaton Submersive HP with a premium finish along with an SMS-1. That's just me. Opinions can and will vary.

There is only so much power you can pull, and we are pretty much there without the need for special outlets like the DD-1812. The redesigned cabinet and Driver provide significant gain in output over the predecessor.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #6 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post

There is only so much power you can pull, and we are pretty much there without the need for special outlets like the DD-1812. The redesigned cabinet and Driver provide significant gain in output over the predecessor.

About how many dbs in the FR?

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #7 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I was about to post the same. I have an HGS-18 (circa '00) sitting in the closet, and if I put it with an SMS-1 I doubt anyone could here a difference in it and this offering. I was expecting a significant change in their next lineup for the prices they ask.

Also, with more and more affordable receivers with Multi EQ XT and XT32 becoming available, I don't see the big draw for built in eq'ing anymore.

EDIT: Is harmonic distortion really an audible problem under 100hz with most decent subs today?

The parabolic equalization system in the Digital Drive and Digital Drive plus provide greater flexibility and accuracy when EQing the subwoofer across its 8 bands. The Auto-EQ plus feature will also auto set the phase of the subwoofer to the optimal setting.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #8 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfan14 View Post

Ha, I was just about to buy an Optimum 10...but now something new to think about.

Might be the first time ever that WAF causes a guy to get an UPGRADE in bass.

the new Walnut finish is huge!

Ethernet connection kinda cool.
http://www.velodyne.com/news/hi-res_..._300%20dpi.jpg

I called my local retailer and they didn't know about it.
If anyone has a price list (or knows where to buy) please post.

The Ethernet connection is for use with system controllers and automation systems.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #9 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post

There is only so much power you can pull, and we are pretty much there without the need for special outlets like the DD-1812. The redesigned cabinet and Driver provide significant gain in output over the predecessor.

Thank you for your input, Rob. Since the previous DD18 has been well tested and evaluated over the years, can you estimate about how much greater output the new model will be capable of?
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post #10 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 04:43 PM
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I figured on the ethernet, also will be easier to update drivers.

Funny, Velodyne has a bunch of distributors in the Bay Area...about 70 miles from the HQ....and yet three authorized retailers in a row have never heard of the DD+ and none were able to give me an MSRP.

Edit: someone just called me with an MSRP. And gave me the DD10 (not plus).

Not a good day for people who sell speakers.
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post #11 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfan14 View Post

I figured on the ethernet, also will be easier to update drivers.

Funny, Velodyne has a bunch of distributors in the Bay Area...about 70 miles from the HQ....and yet three authorized retailers in a row have never heard of the DD+ and none were able to give me an MSRP.

Edit: someone just called me with an MSRP. And gave me the DD10 (not plus).

Not a good day for people who sell speakers.

The DD+ (10s and 12s) just started shipping, the stores likely have not recieved them yet and most sales people don't say or know much about the product until it hits the sales floor. I am happy to PM you the MSRP when I get back to the office tomorrow.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #12 of 169 Old 12-02-2010, 06:19 PM
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I absolutely love my DD-12 and have been a happy Velodyne customer for a long time..........

With that said, two DD-18+ being placed in my new theater build is not going to happen due to MSRP $5999.............

I can have 2 subs built using the TC Sound LMS 5400 Ultra driver for the price of one DD-18+. I believe Velodyne is missing the boat due to pricing............sad as I love their products!!!
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post #13 of 169 Old 12-03-2010, 12:29 AM
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I honestly cannot see all that many informed sub buyers shelling out that sort of $$$$ for the new DD18+. I think they are going to be out-gunned by Paradigm in that general price range as well as by many other subs selling for a fraction of their price. They may prove me wrong, but I'd be surprised.
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post #14 of 169 Old 12-03-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I honestly cannot see all that many informed sub buyers shelling out that sort of $$$$ for the new DD18+. I think they are going to be out-gunned by Paradigm in that general price range as well as by many other subs selling for a fraction of their price. They may prove me wrong, but I'd be surprised.

The DD+ is not intended to be subwoofer for everyone. Achieving huge sales volumes is not the goal of this our flag ship series. There are many subwoofers in our line and from other companies that are capable of providing more bang for your buck, however if you want uncompromising performance and accuracy then price is not the issue.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #15 of 169 Old 12-03-2010, 09:02 PM
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The DD series from Velodyne is an exceptional performer. I doubt that Paradigm has the technology that Velodyne has espically in the servo department. Rob, your products are nothing short of fantastic. The new DD+ has a very beefy driver in it, with a servo system the corrects 15,800 times a second. This is a far more advanced system than Paradigm uses in there Sub-25. From a quality standpoint, fit & finish, build quality, performance, I am not certain anyone makes a better sub than Velodyne. The internet direct companys like HSU, Epik, Rythmik, ED and so on..... make very very nice units for the dollar. I have heard many of them, not all of them. They seem to fall short on sound quality compaird to the Velodynes to me. It is like there is something missing. When it comes down to clean accurate bass extention the Velodyne just shines. The Velodynes may not have the most output, but, thats not the goal for them. The goal for Velodyne is to produce the cleanest tightes most accurate bass in the subwoofer industry. They have proven they know how to do that with there DD series of subwoofers. The new DD+ is an outstanding performer, I have heard it. As far as output, they are no joke. A properly set up system with a subwoofer or woofers x2 is not going to play at 140db unless your just a plain bass head and have a unbalanced system. All people seem to care about these days is output! balance your system the right way and enjoy.

Hats off to Velodyne for some great products. Good luck with the new DD+ Rob, I will be buying one or two of them for myself. I am torn between the 15's or the 18's.

FYI, I have the HSU VTF15H and it is a very good subwoofer. I can not wait to get my hands on a DD+ to compair the two.....

TLG....
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post #16 of 169 Old 12-03-2010, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_ACP_AUTO View Post

The new DD+ has a very beefy driver in it, with a servo system the corrects 15,800 times a second.

Given that the highest frequency a subwoofer might be called on to generate is 80-100 Hz, do you really think it makes a difference if the servo system is "correcting" that quickly?
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post #17 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 07:52 AM
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you'd think the revamp would no longer resemble something from parts express

pretty sure JL Audio isn't too worried
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post #18 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I was about to post the same. I have an HGS-18 (circa '00) sitting in the closet, and if I put it with an SMS-1 I doubt anyone could here a difference in it and this offering. I was expecting a significant change in their next lineup for the prices they ask.

Also, with more and more affordable receivers with Multi EQ XT and XT32 becoming available, I don't see the big draw for built in eq'ing anymore.

EDIT: Is harmonic distortion really an audible problem under 100hz with most decent subs today?

It depends on:

1) Room size and floor plan. Large open vs. small sealed room.
2) It depends on how loud the buyer plans on going, and how deep the buyer wants. THD can certainly be a problem if you don't buy enough raw output to start with. There are numerous "decent" subs that would be fine in a small room and minimal expectations from 25 Hz down to 10 hz.
3) So, one answer to your question is, if you buy something with considerable raw output, such as the CS 18.2, THD shouldn't be a problem in most rooms, otherwise THD is a concern.
4) As far as audibility of THD and subwoofers; if you know what to listen for and most especially, have a reference that is known to have low THD when pushed hard and deep, THD can be audible with a sub pushed to its limits.
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post #19 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
I'm sure it's going to be a nice sounding sub, but does anyone else find it a little disappointing that after all these years they didn't see fit to give it more power than it's ancestor? I'm sure it will be priced well up there like the high-end Paradigms and JL's, but will most likely fall short on output just like it's predecessor.

Personally if I was looking for a higher-end sealed sub on a $3000+ budget, I'd be going after a Seaton Submersive HP with a premium finish along with an SMS-1. That's just me. Opinions can and will vary.
Mike

We could put together all kinds of sub + EQ packages for the same or less money than a DD-18 Plus. The thing is that the DD series is aimed at a different target audience than ID subs. People with more discretionary income, who like to shop in stores, who want simple operation to get good subwoofer-room integration are the market demographic for Velodyne, Paradigm, J L Audio.

Velodyne DDs have been popular with some pretty sophisticated listeners with high end systems. Some of these folks are reviewers and/or are known for their quest for excellence in sound quality.

A Toyota Camry V6 is a very nice car, but the professionals I know buy the Lexus ES 350. Just a different demographic.
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post #20 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 12:41 PM
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I understand the market that the new DD will be competing in, but I can't help but to be skeptical that it's going to be able to hang with it's natural competitors like Paradigm and JL. At a time when 4000watt plate amps are not that uncommon, Velo chose an amp with no more continuous power than it's geriatric ancestor. Unless they have made a miracle breakthrough in efficiency, I don't see it being a great choice vs the other high priced spreads out there. I guess time will tell.
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post #21 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
I understand the market that the new DD will be competing in, but I can't help but to be skeptical that it's going to be able to hang with it's natural competitors like Paradigm and JL. At a time when 4000watt plate amps are not that uncommon, Velo chose an amp with no more continuous power than it's geriatric ancestor. Unless they have made a miracle breakthrough in efficiency, I don't see it being a great choice vs the other high priced spreads out there. I guess time will tell.
I'm sure it's a fine sub, but I'm with you on how it will compare to the manufacturers it's fighting with. Not to mention sub buyers are more educated than they were 10 years ago when I bought my HGS-18 and thought it was the best thing out there. Of course, 10 years ago, it was a damn fine sub. 10 years ago, with the same amp that this new one has, apparently, since the specs are the same.

A different target audience for sure, and I hope it does well for Velodyne. They have been most helpful to me in the past with getting an amp replacement for my old sub, and I mean no disrespect with any of my comments.

I'm strictly looking at this from a "What can X amount of money get me" standpoint.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #22 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
I understand the market that the new DD will be competing in, but I can't help but to be skeptical that it's going to be able to hang with it's natural competitors like Paradigm and JL. At a time when 4000watt plate amps are not that uncommon, Velo chose an amp with no more continuous power than it's geriatric ancestor. Unless they have made a miracle breakthrough in efficiency, I don't see it being a great choice vs the other high priced spreads out there. I guess time will tell.
I would add that in various reviews of the DD-18 they talk about the amount of limiting the servo imposes at the lowest frequencies and highest volume levels.

Velodyne is really serious about limiting THD at any settings. If you look at the second page of this review by John Johnson, you will see that he could not generate any more than 4.1% THD + Noise at 15 Hz and 100 db output.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...03-part-2.html

My point is that the Velodyne servo does exactly what Veldoyne wants it to do, which is to never sound bad due to high THD.

All this adds up to the DDs having as much amp power as the driver/box system could handle. The new DD Plus is going to be able to generate more output, but not gobs more.

More amp power in such a design is not necessarily the best way for Velodyne to achieve the results it designed for.

I wonder if the 370 watt Rythmiks are also considered underpowered? Is the 350 watt HSU V15H underpowered?
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post #23 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
I would add that in various reviews of the DD-18 they talk about the amount of limiting the servo imposes at the lowest frequencies and highest volume levels.

Velodyne is really serious about limiting THD at any settings. If you look at the second page of this review by John Johnson, you will see that he could not generate any more than 4.1% THD + Noise at 15 Hz and 100 db output.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...03-part-2.html

My point is that the Velodyne servo does exactly what Veldoyne wants it to do, which is to never sound bad due to high THD.

All this adds up to the DDs having as much amp power as the driver/box system could handle. The new DD Plus is going to be able to generate more output, but not gobs more.

More amp power in such a design is not necessarily the best way for Velodyne to achieve the results it designed for.

I wonder if the 370 watt Rythmiks are also considered underpowered? Is the 350 watt HSU V15H underpowered?
Not trying to speak for Mike, but he (like me) may be wondering about the cost aspect when compared to say a PB13 or the new HSU (which I haven't heard) when it comes to real world use and listening tests. In other words, will it be worth it to pay that much for lower THD?

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #24 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 01:36 PM
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It's nice to have a manfacturer take a stance against higher THD. It's kind of a purist approach, and for people that want a very clean sounding subwoofer, it caters to that part of the market.

You know that Velodyne can't win the loudness wars, the high power boxed subs from ID companies cater to that market well. But I can see that Velodyne is offering a value proposition beyond what Paradigm and JL offer. They are known to make great subs, and this is just a natural progression for them.

I have respect for what they are doing. I have one of their little Microvees for my computer system, and it sounds great. I also have much larger SVS sub for my main system, and it offers tremendous bang for the buck. So it's a win win for me.

I think some of the subs sold by the ID companies is really overkill for most people. I don't necessarily want a refrigerator sized box, but I want a sub that plays loud enough, sounds clean, hits low enough, looks great, and is programmable to allow me to fine tune it for my own room. It looks like DD+ is trying to meet that need.

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post #25 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post
Not trying to speak for Mike, but he (like me) may be wondering about the cost aspect when compared to say a PB13 or the new HSU (which I haven't heard) when it comes to real world use and listening tests. In other words, will it be worth it to pay that much for lower THD?
As I am sure you are aware, the Rythmik subs are considered by more than a few people to be the cleanest sounding sub around. Ilkka was one of those people. He works for Genelec now.

Rythmik has received high praise from buyers if I am reading this Forum correctly.

Whether you want to complain about how underpowered the 1250 watt DD-18 Plus is, or whether low THD under any conditions is worth it to you, the DD-18 Plus is not aimed at budget conscious buyers. That is the Internet Direct province.

Those with the discretionary income, who prefer to shop in a store, and want fool-proof room/subwoofer integration are the target audience. Such people may spend more time in the $20,000+ section of the Forum....
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post #26 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 01:50 PM
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Very impressive. For strictly music listening, I'd take this any day over anything from the ID companies.
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post #27 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Whether you want to complain about how underpowered the 1250 watt DD-18 Plus is, or whether low THD under any conditions is worth it to you, the DD-18 Plus is not aimed at budget conscious buyers. That is the Internet Direct province.
I understand who it's aimed for, but since it's posted here amongst the other cheaper and similarly performing subs , my comments are justified. I don't put much stock in the amp numbers for any sub, anyway.
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Those with the discretionary income, who prefer to shop in a store, and want fool-proof room/subwoofer integration are the target audience.
I understand that, too. It's great that there are so many options for buyers out there. However, people with money to burn usually didn't get that way by throwing money away, wouldn't you agree? No matter how much money I have or will have, I will always want to spend the least amount on an item if it comes down to two things performing the same, with one of them costing much less. Buyers who are researching the internet may want to know what options are out there, that their local retailers aren't going to tell them about.

As I said before, I'm not belittling Velodyne are trying to "call them out" in any way. If SVS, Seaton, HSU, Epik, Rythmik, or JTR were to come out with a $3K sub, I'm going to want to know what I get for my $3K that I can't get for cheaper.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #28 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 02:52 PM
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I understand who it's aimed for, but since it's posted here amongst the other cheaper and similarly performing subs , my comments are justified. I don't put much stock in the amp numbers for any sub, anyway.I understand that, too. It's great that there are so many options for buyers out there. However, people with money to burn usually didn't get that way by throwing money away, wouldn't you agree? No matter how much money I have or will have, I will always want to spend the least amount on an item if it comes down to two things performing the same, with one of them costing much less. Buyers who are researching the internet may want to know what options are out there, that their local retailers aren't going to tell them about.

As I said before, I'm not belittling Velodyne are trying to "call them out" in any way. If SVS, Seaton, HSU, Epik, Rythmik, or JTR were to come out with a $3K sub, I'm going to want to know what I get for my $3K that I can't get for cheaper.
Like I said, the Velo DD-18 Plus is not aimed at budget conscious buyers such as yourself.
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post #29 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 03:26 PM
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Another thing to consider with Velo is their distribution channel. They go to locations most most others don't. This level of geographic service is costly, but it gets your product into the hands of customers many other sub makers can't or will not reach.

Some of you must not have read the details link on the DD18+. It has a 180" driver. No wonder it's so costly.

Randy
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post #30 of 169 Old 12-04-2010, 03:26 PM
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I would add that in various reviews of the DD-18 they talk about the amount of limiting the servo imposes at the lowest frequencies and highest volume levels.

Velodyne is really serious about limiting THD at any settings. If you look at the second page of this review by John Johnson, you will see that he could not generate any more than 4.1% THD + Noise at 15 Hz and 100 db output.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...03-part-2.html

My point is that the Velodyne servo does exactly what Veldoyne wants it to do, which is to never sound bad due to high THD.

All this adds up to the DDs having as much amp power as the driver/box system could handle. The new DD Plus is going to be able to generate more output, but not gobs more.

More amp power in such a design is not necessarily the best way for Velodyne to achieve the results it designed for.

I wonder if the 370 watt Rythmiks are also considered underpowered? Is the 350 watt HSU V15H underpowered?
I always did consider the 370 watt Rythmiks to be underpowered. The only criticisms I've ever seen toward Rythmik is that they lack of output. They have of course stepped up to a 600 watt option to help with that. As far as the HSU goes, the fact that it's ported and quite large makes the power requirements altogether different. Also as you had pointed out earlier, they are catering to entirely different markets than the Velodyne flagships. Velodyne's success with new DD+ series will depend on how they perform versus the other subs vying for the same buyers, meaning Paradigm, JL, and others selling subs for multi-$$$$. They wont be taking any customers away from Seaton, SVS, HSU, Rythmik, and the other usual ID suspects.
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