Who makes the best subwoofer plate amplifier? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 12-13-2010, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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My friends that have participated in my King of Subwoofers thread have my gears turning. I am preparing to start a DIY 18" Project. My hurdle seems to be amplification. The subs that I am considering seem to enjoy a couple thousand watts.

I love the O audio plate amps. 500 watts max. Dayton offers a 1000 at 4ohm.

I am in search of a subwoofer plate amp. Crossover included with the usual plate amp controls. The pre amp may be devoid of a crossover so the electronic variable crossover is a must. Power needs to start at ~1000 watts.

I would like to steer clear of the Pro Audio DJ amps if I can but I will do what I need to do.

Any suggestions or advice is appreciated as always.
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post #2 of 42 Old 12-13-2010, 09:34 PM
 
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You would be better off using a two channel pro amp which you can bridge to easily get 1,000 watts or more for under $350. I'm not sure why you are so afraid of passive sub with external amp combos.
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post #3 of 42 Old 12-13-2010, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

You would be better off using a two channel pro amp which you can bridge to easily get 1,000 watts or more for under $350. I'm not sure why you are so afraid of passive sub with external amp combos.

External may be OK for this application as long as the amp has an electronic variable crossover on board. The Dayton is a 1000 watt with all of the controls I need. Im hoping to find a more powerful one. I would like to have something similar to what is in the sunfire signature at 2700 watts w the controls.

Bridging usually cuts the amps damping factor in half. I would like to avoid this as well. That info came straight from Adcom regarding a GFA555 that I was going to use to drive subs at one point.
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post #4 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:06 AM
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If you believe you can actually hear the difference when damping drops from like 400 to 200, you are imagining things. Besides that, how do you know that the damping in a pro amp isn't several times higher than a particular plate amp to begin with? Some of the best DIY setips out there are using pro amps for power.
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post #5 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

If you believe you can actually hear the difference when damping drops from like 400 to 200, you are imagining things. Besides that, how do you know that the damping in a pro amp isn't several times higher than a particular plate amp to begin with? Some of the best DIY setips out there are using pro amps for power.


Blind ear test or not, with a big 18 I would probably play it safe and go for a higher damping factor if possible.

I am not putting down pro amps. I know they put out a lot of power for the price. Im just trying to find an amplifier that has a variable electronic crossover inside. Im hoping someone will know of a manufacturer that makes a plate or ext. of about 2kw with the crossover built in.
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post #6 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ich toxisch View Post

Blind ear test or not, with a big 18 I would probably play it safe and go for a higher damping factor if possible.

I am not putting down pro amps. I know they put out a lot of power for the price. Im just trying to find an amplifier that has a variable electronic crossover inside. Im hoping someone will know of a manufacturer that makes a plate or ext. of about 2kw with the crossover built in.

Does this fit the bill?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU6000DSP.aspx

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post #7 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 06:53 AM
 
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post #8 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 08:41 AM
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May want to contact JTR. He uses a 2000w RMS amp with the captivator that is pretty full featured.

Daniel
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post #9 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Does this fit the bill?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU6000DSP.aspx

He doesn't want any passive subs or external two channel amps bridged. He would rather pay more money for for the same amount of power via plate amps.
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post #10 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ich toxisch View Post

Blind ear test or not, with a big 18 I would probably play it safe and go for a higher damping factor if possible.

I am not putting down pro amps. I know they put out a lot of power for the price. Im just trying to find an amplifier that has a variable electronic crossover inside. Im hoping someone will know of a manufacturer that makes a plate or ext. of about 2kw with the crossover built in.

They do not exist for end customers, you have to buy them through dealers that only sell to subwoofer companies. I have a 2Kw plate amp through a subwofer designer but there was no crossover built in. There is really no need for one if we have other EQing options (Ie. MiniDSP)

The largest plate amp that I know of (I also own it) is the LT/1300 from elemental designs.

Also the pro amps are just fine being bridged some of the most expensive Passive designs I have seen, measured, listened to have been run by bridged amps. The DIY forum has a pretty good list of measured amps (bridged and two channel).

Dampening factor is one of those audiophile myths when it comes to subs. Its a complete waste of time to worry about it. Its up there with thinking 12" woofers are faster/better then 18" woofers.

Like Mojomike said, there is no audiable difference.

If you want more info on the high powered plate amps PM Nathan from funky waves or Mark Seaton.

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post #11 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dachness View Post

May want to contact JTR. He uses a 2000w RMS amp with the captivator that is pretty full featured.

Daniel

I think that's now been bumped up to 4000 watts.
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post #12 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I think that's now been bumped up to 4000 watts.

Yep, I think I know the plate amp they are all getting

The one I have is said to have 4000Watt peaks I have to compare it against my pro audio amps soon.

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post #13 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yep, I think I know the plate amp they are all getting

The one I have is said to have 4000Watt peaks I have to compare it against my pro audio amps soon.

Actually according to Jeff it's "4000 watt RMS, 7200 watt burst". Seems almost impossible on 120 volt house circuit.
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post #14 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 09:16 AM
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Wow, that is a serious amp!!

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post #15 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ich toxisch View Post

My friends that have participated in my King of Subwoofers thread have my gears turning. I am preparing to start a DIY 18" Project...

Uh, so why did you start this thread in this forum? I see you are new to AVS so I think I should point out that this forum is for the commercially made subwoofer, whereas there is a forum specifically for the DIYers. I suggest you'd be better off posting over there instead of pulling all the DIYers to this forum. You may even find threads there that will be of interest to you and very helpful. You can even get one of the mods to move this thread over there... it would really make more sense.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #16 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ich toxisch View Post

External may be OK for this application as long as the amp has an electronic variable crossover on board. The Dayton is a 1000 watt with all of the controls I need. Im hoping to find a more powerful one. I would like to have something similar to what is in the sunfire signature at 2700 watts w the controls.

Bridging usually cuts the amps damping factor in half. I would like to avoid this as well. That info came straight from Adcom regarding a GFA555 that I was going to use to drive subs at one point.

I hope you understand that in its first professional test, more than 20 years ago, the Carver (Sunfire) 2,700 watt amp could not actually deliver 2,700 watts. No more than current Sunfire Signature amps can deliver 400 watts X 7 simultaneously.

I don't think Bob Carver even mentions using a 20 amp circuit for his subwoofers.

Have you considered whether your home wiring is up to the task of delivering >2,000 watts? You might need a voltage stabilized 20 AMP line for such an amp. That is probably about $2K worth of electricians labor and parts.
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post #17 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The elemental designs 1300 may be the right thing for this project.

My other issue with pro amps is xlr. Are you all using adaptors to get around this?

And what devices are you using to get around the lack of a crossover?

If threre are external or self contained variable crossovers available that runon 120v I would like to hear bout them too.

I once used a 12v crossover, mated to a 120/12 power supply. It worked but there were cables everywhere. It was a pain in the a$$.
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post #18 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ich toxisch View Post

The elemental designs 1300 may be the right thing for this project.

My other issue with pro amps is xlr. Are you all using adaptors to get around this?

And what devices are you using to get around the lack of a crossover?

If threre are external or self contained variable crossovers available that runon 120v I would like to hear bout them too.

I once used a 12v crossover, mated to a 120/12 power supply. It worked but there were cables everywhere. It was a pain in the a$$.

Luckily the Ed 1300 LT amp was revised for a soft turn-on, as some people were tripping the breaker every time they turned on the 1300 watt amp. Also, there are folks who have experience with the LT 1300 who say it does not deliver 1300 watts.

I believe penngray is one of those people.
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post #19 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Luckily the Ed 1300 LT amp was revised for a soft turn-on, as some people were tripping the breaker every time they turned on the 1300 watt amp. Also, there are folks who have experience with the LT 1300 who say it does not deliver 1300 watts.

I believe penngray is one of those people.

Actually, it does deliver the amp spec of clean 1300wrms .

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post #20 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 03:35 PM
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How about the 2000w plate amp from Funky Waves.
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post #21 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I hope you understand that in its first professional test, more than 20 years ago, the Carver (Sunfire) 2,700 watt amp could not actually deliver 2,700 watts. No more than current Sunfire Signature amps can deliver 400 watts X 7 simultaneously.

I don't think Bob Carver even mentions using a 20 amp circuit for his subwoofers.

Have you considered whether your home wiring is up to the task of delivering >2,000 watts? You might need a voltage stabilized 20 AMP line for such an amp. That is probably about $2K worth of electricians labor and parts.

I own a sunfire sig cinema amp. It does not product close to 400Watts per channel.

I also own amps that do 2000Watts and 4000Watts. Yes, that is measured power and if I do not know I will send my amp to be measured.

You do not need any sort of expensive circuit. Electricians put in 20Amp circuits for $300 or so $$ where I live. Its nothing special at all. One 20 amp circuit can power the 4000Watt peaks that I need for my sealed subwoofer. Remember circuits can handle a lot more voltage for split seconds then what they are rated at, you can add the fact that amp capcitors also have the ability to increase the voltage needed for split seconds....together you can get far more voltage then you need. We are also talking about split second peaks. 99.9% of the time Subwoofers are running under 10Watts.

So two important facts.

1. Bridging pro audio amps are done without any issues. People who own the highest quality designs do this on a regular basis. Those people know subwoofer design and response inside and out (I wouldn't question them or their knowledge). No need to worry about bridging.

2. 20 Amp circuits are enough to handle amp peaks of 4000Watts. Again, Many of those who have the best subs (see Warpdrv's thread in DIY) are doing this without issues.


Someone else pointed out that really much of this discussion is better off in the DIY forum. There is a lot you can learn over in that forum.

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post #22 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by crabra View Post

How about the 2000w plate amp from Funky Waves.

Yep, Nathan offered that to a bunch of DIYers (there was a thread in the DIY section on it). I think I was the only one that bought one. Sadly with so much time travelling and now family holidays I have not even turned it on

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post #23 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ich toxisch View Post

The elemental designs 1300 may be the right thing for this project.

My other issue with pro amps is xlr. Are you all using adaptors to get around this?

And what devices are you using to get around the lack of a crossover?

If threre are external or self contained variable crossovers available that runon 120v I would like to hear bout them too.

I once used a 12v crossover, mated to a 120/12 power supply. It worked but there were cables everywhere. It was a pain in the a$$.


Most just use RCA to XLR cables that can be purchased online. My pre/pro is the Onkyo 885 and it has XLR outputs so Im strictly XLR to XLR. Some people also add a device like the Samson S-convert to increase the output level from -10dBV to +4Dbu (RCA to XLR stuff).

Im not sure what you are asking about with XOs. Almost everyone would be using an AVR or Pre/pro which has bass management and the XO functionality for main speakers and subs. Is this a 2 channel solution with an analog pre/amp??

For complete EQing there are many popular choices on the RCA side you have, SMS-1, Anti-mode 8033 and my favorite the MiniDSP. On the XLR (pro side) you have products like the Behringer BFD, Behringer DCX2946, QSC DSP-30 (I own all of those too).

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post #24 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I hope you understand that in its first professional test, more than 20 years ago, the Carver (Sunfire) 2,700 watt amp could not actually deliver 2,700 watts. No more than current Sunfire Signature amps can deliver 400 watts X 7 simultaneously.

I don't think Bob Carver even mentions using a 20 amp circuit for his subwoofers.

Have you considered whether your home wiring is up to the task of delivering >2,000 watts? You might need a voltage stabilized 20 AMP line for such an amp. That is probably about $2K worth of electricians labor and parts.

Of course it can't deliver 400X7 RMS to all channels simultaneously. A 20 amp circuit is only capable of delivering 2400W, and under RMS current draw the breaker will trip 2-3 amps short of that number. So the actual RMS wattage of a 20 amp circuit is probably closer to 2000 than 2400. As to the 4000W amp included with the Captivator, even with a 20 amp circuit it will only deliver about half that RMS output and only a 1/3 of the peak output. For the typical 15 amp circuit it's far worse. As a result, on a 20 amp circuit I would guess you could take at least 6 dB off the rated output of the captivator, and more if it is on a typical 15 amp circuit.
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post #25 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crabra View Post

How about the 2000w plate amp from Funky Waves.

I went to the site and see it listed. No pics. It could practical for me. I will email them and try to get more info. Thanx.
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post #26 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:54 PM
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Guys, I have produced 3000Watts on a 15 amp for under 1 second. That same test tripped a 15amp powerbar.

If the Sunfire amp could produce 2800Watts then even a 15 amp can handle it for very short bursts, The circuit can allow for far greater then 15 amps during those very short bursts.


I have a lot of Watts that I can utilize for testing, upto 4000Watts bridged.

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post #27 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course it can't deliver 400X7 RMS to all channels simultaneously. A 20 amp circuit is only capable of delivering 2400W, and under RMS current draw the breaker will trip 2-3 amps short of that number. So the actual RMS wattage of a 20 amp circuit is probably closer to 2000 than 2400. As to the 4000W amp included with the Captivator, even with a 20 amp circuit it will only deliver about half that RMS output and only a 1/3 of the peak output. For the typical 15 amp circuit it's far worse. As a result, on a 20 amp circuit I would guess you could take at least 6 dB off the rated output of the captivator, and more if it is on a typical 15 amp circuit.

So is it impractical to have a large amp like this? If you are only using the peak power for very short periods of time will you still have the breaker problems you are describing? Also, while running this large amplifier for a sub one usually has a multichannel amp running along with a big ol widescreen TV. Looks like soome hefty dedicated circuits may be practical.
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post #28 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 05:01 PM
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So is it impractical to have a large amp like this? If you are only using the peak power for very short periods of time will you still have the breaker problems you are describing? Also, while running this large amplifier for a sub one usually has a multichannel amp running along with a big ol widescreen TV. Looks like soome hefty dedicated circuits may be practical.

A dedicated 20 amp circuit is required for HT rooms. I have 3 of them.

Its not impractical to have large amps. Many of use have over 10,000 watts in some of our setups.

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post #29 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I dont think the Sunfires use class D but they do have some efficient hocus pocus going on like the old Carvers did. Maybe the higher efficiency is a contributing factor. Usually Sunfire uses modest power ratings like NAD and Anthem. They should be able to produce the claimed wattage with all channels driven. It isnt an Onkyo receiver that is rated at 140x7 until all 7 channels are run simultaneously. They drop to a pathetic 40 wattsx7.
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post #30 of 42 Old 12-14-2010, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

A dedicated 20 amp circuit is required for HT rooms. I have 3 of them.

Its not impractical to have large amps. Many of use have over 10,000 watts in some of our setups.

Sounds like it may be practical to have up to 3 dedicated 20amp circuits.
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