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post #271 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

I really don't understand the new thing of doing measurement of subs, It can get loud but sound like crap most of the ID companies care nothing about sound quality just quanity I have heard Ed sub I think 7s-450 it was able to go loud and low like most of the much loved subs dicussed on this forum but every note sounded the same.

Velodyne has had a long history of building subs THAT SOUND GOOD! Paradigm also HSU is not bad, bad but all of those companies design for musical attibutes rather than how loud they can get. Please don,t hit me with your super sub drivers but NONE of the ID companies that I have heard sound good in terms of music some are ok but who wants to pay shipping on these monsters just to find out they don't like it, not me

And that's including some of the better know ID sub designers. measurement might tell you how loud and low a sub can play but it does not tell you how good it sounds Rythmik is the only company that put importance on sound not how much volume it puts out just my .02.

My two cents. I put a great deal of value in subjective sound quality, but also understand that it is dependent on the knowledge and quality of the person who is making the subjective statements and is subject to listener bias. Objective measurements provide us with a level playing field to help see if the subjective qualities correspond with the objective measurements. Over time as we learn more, we are able to correlate objective data to subjective qualities.

Here the objective measurements are lacking in some things that I would like to see, specifically distortion and group delay. These tell us a lot about the subjective qualities of a sub, such as "tightness". A simple frequency response chart and max output chart doesn't tell us how much doubling is occurring, if there are higher order distortions, or if the sub suffers from ringing. That said, a frequency response chart and max SPL's provide us with at least a basis for comparison.
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post #272 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:49 AM
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Oh forgot about SVS yes I have heard that model and it was pretty musical.

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post #273 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Clearly you're not listening to the right "ID" companies.


Or quite possibly the right room either....
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post #274 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

There is more bs in that statement than I can dipute in just one sitting, but as far as testing for output goes, it is very useful in helping one to determine if a particular sub is enough for ones particular needs. If not, then one can switch to a bigger or more powerful sub or can plan on mutiples. Max output alone cannot descibe the SQ, but combined with frequency curves which show the onset and degree of compression, it can tell a whole lot.

Surfing from my phone and wasn't about to attempt a long winded reply to that post, but you summed it up well enough.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #275 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

There is more bs in that statement than I can dipute in just one sitting, but as far as testing for output goes, it is very useful in helping one to determine if a particular sub is enough for ones particular needs. If not, then one can switch to a bigger or more powerful sub or can plan on mutiples. Max output alone cannot descibe the SQ, but combined with frequency curves which show the onset and degree of compression, it can tell a whole lot.



Please point out the BS!!

KJ
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post #276 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:55 AM
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Great ... another huge thread derail coming ... but what the heck, we have a couple weeks before the next installment from AH ...

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #277 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

I really don't understand the new thing of doing measurement of subs, It can get loud but sound like crap most of the ID companies care nothing about sound quality just quanity I have heard Ed sub I think 7s-450 it was able to go loud and low like most of the much loved subs dicussed on this forum but every note sounded the same.

Velodyne has had a long history of building subs THAT SOUND GOOD! Paradigm also HSU is not bad, bad but all of those companies design for musical attibutes rather than how loud they can get. Please don,t hit me with your super sub drivers but NONE of the ID companies that I have heard sound good in terms of music some are ok but who wants to pay shipping on these monsters just to find out they don't like it, not me

And that's including some of the better know ID sub designers. measurement might tell you how loud and low a sub can play but it does not tell you how good it sounds Rythmik is the only company that put importance on sound not how much volume it puts out just my .02.

I would love to do some blind tests with you in my room. We can have your Paradigms and Velodynes behind the curtains with ID subs and then we can really see if you can pick them out. I bet you will be surprised.
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post #278 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:59 AM
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I have a question, it seems earlier that people were confusing the PB12 with the PB12+, is this correct? I am sure the HSU is better than the pb12 but the pb12+ would be much closer if not better? Of course that is speculation.
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post #279 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 10:08 AM
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Guys I'm not saying that an ID sub from any of the popular models dicussed are not good but how many other than the ones who understand those graphs and charts can look at those numbers and understand them to make an informed choice what I am saying is the internet has made a lot of people experts at things they know little about and that paying shipping on something that the guys with thousand of posts say is good, because it sounds good in his room does not mean he/her will have the same results.I miss the days of going into a B/M store and listening for myself and if I did not, put it in my car and returning it without spending a $100 in gas, I have seen both ways and ID is by far a disadvantage.

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post #280 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

Guys I'm not saying that an ID sub from any of the popular models dicussed are not good but how many other than the ones who understand those graphs and charts can look at those numbers and understand them to make an informed choice what I am saying is the internet has made a lot of people experts at things they know little about and that paying shipping on something that the guys with thousand of posts say is good, because it sounds good in his room does not mean he/her will have the same results.I miss the days of going into a B/M store and listening for myself and if I did not, put it my car and returning it without spending a $100 in gas, I have seen both ways and ID is by far a disadvantage.

Disadvantage yes but the performance for $ ratio is much better with ID. I have spent lots of money testing and returning things but it helps me learn what I like and don't like.
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post #281 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

Please point out the BS!!

I will point out each part that I call bs, but I don't have the time right now to dispoint each point. I can get back to them in the future if you like.

1. "It can get loud but sound like crap most of the ID companies care nothing about sound quality just quanity"

2. "I have heard Ed sub I think 7s-450 it was able to go loud and low like most of the much loved subs dicussed on this forum but every note sounded the same."

3. "Velodyne has had a long history of building subs THAT SOUND GOOD!"

4. "Paradigm also HSU is not bad, bad but all of those companies design for musical attibutes rather than how loud they can get."

5. "Please don,t hit me with your super sub drivers but NONE of the ID companies that I have heard sound good in terms of music"

6. "Rythmik is the only company that put importance on sound not how much volume it puts out"


Each of these statements in my opinion either are bs or contain elements of bs in them.
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post #282 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'll bet the guy inhaled at least once back in college.

More importantly, somebody needs to post his birth certificate. I hear he isn't really an American.

In all seriousness, I found his approach straight forward and his writing clear. I ordered a PB12 Plus, in part, because of the Audioholics testing. It should arrive tomorrow!
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post #283 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 01:33 PM
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Being a noob to subs the charts are way beyond what I understand..they do convey how low a subs going before dropping off which is helpful..but it doesn't and can't show how good it sounds, thats takes human ears and that's where it gets totally subjective. I'm kinda waiting for the results of this test as I'm putting together a ht system and need a sub..
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post #284 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajenn View Post

Being a noob to subs the charts are way beyond what I understand..they do convey how low a subs going before dropping off which is helpful..but it doesn't and can't show how good it sounds, thats takes human ears and that's where it gets totally subjective. I'm kinda waiting for the results of this test as I'm putting together a ht system and need a sub..

Accurate charts and tests can fairly dependably predict how a sub will sound in your own room...and here is the big if...if you understand what your particular room acoustics are going to do to affect the sub's sound. The problem is that first time buyer aren't going to know about their room acoustics. How would they unless they have had and actually measured subs in the room previously? Even more seasoned audio buffs may not understand the science behind the acoustics of their room. In actuality, those charts and tests are really of most use to us crazy eccentrics who hang around geeky audio forums like this one. That's the real truth of the matter.
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post #285 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Accurate charts and tests can fairly dependably predict how a sub will sound in your own room...and here is the big if...if you understand what your particular room acoustics are going to do to affect the sub's sound. The problem is that first time buyer aren't going to know about their room acoustics. How would they unless they have had and actually measured subs in the room previously? Even more seasoned audio buffs may not understand the science behind the acoustics of their room. In actuality, those charts and tests are really of most use to us crazy eccentrics who hang around geeky audio forums like this one. That's the real truth of the matter.

I'm not sure an understanding of the science behind the acoustics of the listening room is what is required. Based on the numerous reviews of the Velodyne DD-18, a good EQ is frequently needed to tame raw room response. Of course room treatments can also help.

The 8033 and SMS-1, SVS EQ-1 are fine tools that don't require an extensive knowledge base. And, by using the SMS-1 guide on the Outlaw site can make for better results, AFAIK.
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post #286 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I'm not sure an understanding of the science behind the acoustics of the listening room is what is required. Based on the numerous reviews of the Velodyne DD-18, a good EQ is frequently needed to tame raw room response. Of course room treatments can also help.

The 8033 and SMS-1, SVS EQ-1 are fine tools that don't require an extensive knowledge base. And, by using the SMS-1 guide on the Outlaw site can make for better results, AFAIK.


+1
With the real time response of the SMS-1, you can see what effects the room.
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post #287 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I'm not sure an understanding of the science behind the acoustics of the listening room is what is required. Based on the numerous reviews of the Velodyne DD-18, a good EQ is frequently needed to tame raw room response. Of course room treatments can also help.

The 8033 and SMS-1, SVS EQ-1 are fine tools that don't require an extensive knowledge base. And, by using the SMS-1 guide on the Outlaw site can make for better results, AFAIK.

I don't disagree with those points, but how many less experienced sub buyers will have Velodyne DD or have even heard of an SMS-1, SVS EQ-1, or an 8033? As for most DD owners, I'd wonder how many will actually manually use the capabilities of the built-in SMS. I'd most that most just use the auto function which is next to useless.

Ideally if possible, I believe it's better to choose the right sub or subs for a particular room rather than a sub that is then forced by eq to sound right in that room. If the right sub is chosen, eq should still be used, but less of it should be needed.

Incidentally, I love my SMS-1.
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post #288 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 05:53 PM
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Am I right to assume the SVS EQ-1 will be obsolete if/when more processors and receivers come out with audyssey XT32?

Was considering upgrading my Integra 9.8 to the marantz AV7005 and getting a used SVS EQ-1 since the 7005 only has audyssey XT. But I'm betting Marantz hits the market this year with an 8003 evolution with XT32. So if the XT32 will do the same thing for my sub (or maybe new dual subs), then I feel it would be worth the wait.
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post #289 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post

Am I right to assume the SVS EQ-1 will be obsolete if/when more processors and receivers come out with audyssey XT32?

Was considering upgrading my Integra 9.8 to the marantz AV7005 and getting a used SVS EQ-1 since the 7005 only has audyssey XT. But I'm betting Marantz hits the market this year with an 8003 evolution with XT32. So if the XT32 will do the same thing for my sub (or maybe new dual subs), then I feel it would be worth the wait.

THIS may help you.

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post #290 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 07:02 PM
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test tones a frequency response don't tell you how tight the bass is, that's for sure, that's why the tests aren't just limited to that.

Any of you remember when Bazooka Bass Tubes were popular? I think this was my first foray into subwoofers. First we listened to something that had "test tone" type electronically generated bass...might have been rap. We were blown away by how loud the bass was. Then I put in some rock that had a good solid mid-bass kickdrum. It sounded horrible! Sloppy and loose. That was an example of a ported sub, done wrong. Had good output for what it cost, though.
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post #291 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

Guys I'm not saying that an ID sub from any of the popular models dicussed are not good but how many other than the ones who understand those graphs and charts can look at those numbers and understand them to make an informed choice what I am saying is the internet has made a lot of people experts at things they know little about and that paying shipping on something that the guys with thousand of posts say is good, because it sounds good in his room does not mean he/her will have the same results.I miss the days of going into a B/M store and listening for myself and if I did not, put it in my car and returning it without spending a $100 in gas, I have seen both ways and ID is by far a disadvantage.

Well this is the AVS forum, so naturally one should have some clue of the science behind performance. Also if one educated on the given subject one shouldn't have rely on those "internet experts" and can easily make an educated decision as to what to buy. Yes the ID formula requires you to buy to audition the product at home, but the same thing was true for many audio salons as well, unless you had a long relationship with the store, to take home something to audition and return it without paying a dime if one didn't like it.
However the price of the ID products and their presumed performance are often worth the risk of a single shipping charge IMO.

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post #292 of 797 Old 01-06-2011, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

I really don't understand the new thing of doing measurement of subs, It can get loud but sound like crap most of the ID companies care nothing about sound quality just quanity I have heard Ed sub I think 7s-450 it was able to go loud and low like most of the much loved subs dicussed on this forum but every note sounded the same.

Velodyne has had a long history of building subs THAT SOUND GOOD! Paradigm also HSU is not bad, bad but all of those companies design for musical attibutes rather than how loud they can get. Please don,t hit me with your super sub drivers but NONE of the ID companies that I have heard sound good in terms of music some are ok but who wants to pay shipping on these monsters just to find out they don't like it, not me

And that's including some of the better know ID sub designers. measurement might tell you how loud and low a sub can play but it does not tell you how good it sounds Rythmik is the only company that put importance on sound not how much volume it puts out just my .02.

Can I ask which ID subs you have heard? Thanks.
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post #293 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 05:35 AM
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SVS,Ed,HSU, MFW-15,Mark Seaton submersive,Servo Drive B-Deap.

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post #294 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 05:45 AM
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I see it only took this thread two pages to all but implode.

Not a record, but impressive nontheless.

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post #295 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

SVS,Ed,HSU, MFW-15,Mark Seaton submersive,Servo Drive B-Deap.

Do yourself a favour next time, have someone properly set up the subs before listening and run some frequency response graphs to ensure they are in fact properly setup.

Oh, and even more fun, have someone set up a blind test with a few decent subs (again, someone who will run some response graphs so that the subs are as flat as possible). I think you'll be surprised. Seriously.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #296 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

SVS,Ed,HSU, MFW-15,Mark Seaton submersive,Servo Drive B-Deap.

Very interesting. You have heard all of the above subs but yet they all sounded bad to you and then you go on and say:

Quote:


And that's including some of the better know ID sub designers. measurement might tell you how loud and low a sub can play but it does not tell you how good it sounds Rythmik is the only company that put importance on sound not how much volume it puts out just my .02.

And yet you have never heard a Rythmik.

I have also heard/own some of the HSUs, heard the SubMs, I also own Velodynes and I used to install them when I did that for a living. The higher end HSUs and the SubM in some cases sound as good or better and play alot lower then the Velos, especially if they have been properly intergrated. So while I respect your opinion I think you are missing the mark with your thinking of ID brands.

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post #297 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

Please point out the BS!!

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but Audioholics has given some pretty nice reviews to ID subs before. This is one of my favorites.

PS: Normally I wouldn't use the sarcasm smiley, but based on previous posts it seems prudent.

PPS: This is no attack on Mark Seaton, who designed a great sub, rather on quality of production that a review sample can not always provide when a company changes production.

PPPS: This wasn't even a review, but gave it a "Gotta Have It" anyway.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #298 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajenn View Post
Being a noob to subs the charts are way beyond what I understand..they do convey how low a subs going before dropping off which is helpful..but it doesn't and can't show how good it sounds, thats takes human ears and that's where it gets totally subjective. I'm kinda waiting for the results of this test as I'm putting together a ht system and need a sub..
Nope, I left subjectivity behind many, many years ago. If a system measure to a certain accuracy it simply will sound awesome.

The problem with listenig and thinking that something sounds good is that most people have pretty inaccurate listening starting points. What you think sounds good isnt really that good most time.

You have to understand that it takes listening education to get a valid reference point. If you have not spent time learning what an accurate bass setup sounds like you will never have a the right reference point.

Once someone is educated on audio science the idea of "subjectivity" goes away. Using ears alone is the worst method of building a great system, sighted listening conclusions are just too flawed to be trusted period.

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post #299 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 04:44 PM
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Using ears alone is the worst method of building a great system, sighted listening conclusions are just too flawed to be trusted period.
But Penn, you leave out that any audio engineer will also tell you that only relying on measurements is also a bad idea.

I agree that a proper reference point is needed when listening.

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post #300 of 797 Old 01-07-2011, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post
Nope, I left subjectivity behind many, many years ago. If a system measure to a certain accuracy it simply will sound awesome.

The problem with listenig and thinking that something sounds good is that most people have pretty inaccurate listening starting points. What you think sounds good isnt really that good most time.

You have to understand that it takes listening education to get a valid reference point. If you have not spent time learning what an accurate bass setup sounds like you will never have a the right reference point.

Once someone is educated on audio science the idea of "subjectivity" goes away. Using ears alone is the worst method of building a great system, sighted listening conclusions are just too flawed to be trusted period.
Really not much different on the video side. :+) There's really not much real calibration you can do with color and light meters. Your eye tends to be just as subjectively wrong as your ear. I'm suspicious that when people talk about "musical" subs they really just mean non-linear frequency response with a helping of 3rd order harmonic for 'warmth' and 'impact'.
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