Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 05:39 AM
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I recall the 1300 watt A7s-450 being smacked down by a Chase 18.1 sub powered by only 500 watts in a head-to-head comparison. That shows what can happen if you get too hung up on power.
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post #362 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

wow. sure sounds like the Rythmic got a lousy review as I read it. Not very impressive, and at $1399.99 for a gloss black? please....

also..I can't believe they have the balls to refer to a $1399.99 subwoofer as a "budget" sub....I'd hate to see what they call an expensive one!

and...for $1199.99 you can get a nice VINYL finish? that bubbles under sunlight? GEEZE
At least the gloss black is nice and shiny


Just reading the SVS review...I love that he calls the SVS PB12 Plus "ugly" basically? WTF? This guy needs a good smack...seriously the best looking sub by FAR out of the 3 they reviewed....with the best amplifier installed and most features, plus probably the best customer support on a product.


Have you been drinking again? How can you say the Rythmik got a bad review? The only thing they said even remotely bad about it was the literature describing the amp features was poorly written and the that it was big and heavy (duh).

I could have sworn looks were pretty subjective topic, don't think you have to resort to violence because you disagree.
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post #363 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I recall the 1300 watt A7s-450 being smacked down by a Chase 18.1 sub powered by only 500 watts in a head-to-head comparison. That shows what can happen if you get too hung up on power.

I find it hard to believe that the CHT would "smack down" the A7s-450. I'd certainly like to see both subs properly tested according to the latest standards, however. One thing for sure, the Ed certainly smacks down the CHT in terms of fit and finish!
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post #364 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 06:48 AM
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just my opinion, but I still believe the 3.3 is a far better value then the vtf 15H...Still, HSU knows how to put out a product that uses the least amount of power...the 3.3, and its just my opinion, is the best 12" sub out there running off 350 watts...and you can probably say the same thing about the vtf and a 15"...and there price points are outstanding with regards to performance.

I looked at some of the charts for both 3.3 and the 15 from the reviews, and really don't see much of a difference other then a bit more output. I know I was getting very "usable output" @ 16hz with the 3.3 in max extension mode in my room.

Personally, I think opting from 2 x 3.3 when they are on sale (729 x 2 = 1460.00) would outperform a vtf15 (1018.00) and the svs (1400) while providing a better frequency response...a better value IMO.
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post #365 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I find it hard to believe that the CHT would "smack down" the A7s-450. I'd certainly like to see both subs properly tested according to the latest standards, however. One thing for sure, the Ed certainly smacks down the CHT in terms of fit and finish!

I'll quote a couple of passages:

"SOUND QUALITY
Adam: Here's another category where the 18.1 walked all over the s450. One could argue about the spl's but not sound quality. The 18.1 sounded clean, tight, and articulate. It never once sounded like it was straining. The s450 sounded good as well but just not as good as the 18.1. As both are reaching their limits the 18.1 sounds more composed. Also the notes produced just sounded better to MY ears. While the 18.1 made every note sound distinct the s450 sounded a little muddy. Ethan always said my 13 sounds cleaner than his 18 and basically the 18.1 sounded like the grown-up version of mine.

Ethan: The A7s-450 is pretty accurate for a driver its size. Naturally, compared to its 13” cousin the 13aV.2, the 13aV.2 has a decent, clearly noticeable improvement in accuracy and ability to extend low over the 19oV.2. That’s ok cuz the 19oV.2 absolutely rules like a tyrant in term of raw beastly power. It just pounds. Hard. I love when that thing hits me in the chest. I giggle like a school girl.

And then I heard the CS18.1… It effing pounds like the A7s-450 – but with the fast, tight accuracy of a much smaller driver. I was really annoyed when everyone started commenting about it. I was hoping no one noticed. I mean, I may have serious reservations about eD’s customer service, but I am still quite proud of how awesome the A7s-450 sounds. I think it’s natural to want to defend and believe the best in the product that I spent my hard-earned money on. So hearing an 18” sub hit as hard as mine – but do it more accurately – that just sucks man. I’ll argue for my sub as far as output goes, but as awesome as the A7s-450 sounds for a sub at its pricepoint, there’s no arguing the CS18.1 just plain sounds better.

Oh – and un-eQ’d it appears the CS18.1 goes lower too. Again I was hoping it was just me that noticed, but a couple people commented there was some missing low bass effects when demo’ing the Flight of the Phoenix material. Now I will say the A7s-450 had the unfortunate circumstance of playing first, immediately after we got done listening to the same scene played by TWO CS18.2’s. That didn’t seem fair to me, so I’d like to say for the record we should’ve listened to the CS18.1 and A7s-450 with “fresh ears”. At the same time, it did kind of sound like the CS18.1 was going lower.
"

and


"CONCLUSION
Adam: These are some bad ass subs! While Ethan expected the s450 to win the spl contest I wasn't so sure, and though the 18.1 did have more output, it very well could've been even if they were in the exact same spot instead of side by side. However, sound quality was clear cut. The 18.1 sounded more refined and controlled than the s450. Everyone there agreed on that. Both subs are great performers. To put up those numbers in that size room is impressive. I do wish we had more time and maybe they'll be a round two someday. When you take both subs though and consider all factors the 18.1 has a better finish, at LEAST equal performance, a better SQ to it, a much better warranty, and let's not forget no two month wait time, it's not that hard of a choice when you add all that up.

Ethan: Both subs are great subs, and they cost about the same (eQ’d). If I had $1000 and had to choose right now, I’d get the CS18.1 and never look back. Its MUCH lighter in weight, its smaller, hits at least as hard as the A7s-450 - but does so noticeably cleaner and lower. You can set it down-firing or front-firing with a sweet metal grille. Bottom line, I can’t think of any reason to buy an A7s-450 anymore, now that the CS18.1 is available."



Personally, I would call this a smackdown.
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post #366 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 06:54 AM
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mojomike, seriuosly, a smack down...I don't think so. Maybe you need to use a little more appropriate terminology.
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post #367 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

mojomike, seriuosly, a smack down...I don't think so. Maybe you need to use a little more appropriate terminology.

According to the quoted passages, it reads as a smackdown to me. I don't know, since I haven't heard either. I'm just agreeing with Mike that the wording does in fact make it sound like a "smackdown".

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #368 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 07:00 AM
 
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Let's get them both tested, so we don't have to rely on amateur enthusiasts.
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post #369 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

mojomike, seriuosly, a smack down...I don't think so. Maybe you need to use a little more appropriate terminology.

In the comparison that I noted, you don't consider that a smackdown? How about "a beating", a "trouncing", a "major defeat", a "huge upset"? Are any of those terms more appropriate?
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post #370 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 07:03 AM
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I like the term, "to MY ears".
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How about unsubstantiated claims concerned SQ? How about unsubstantiated claims about extension and distortion? How about the fact that the CHT is said to be smaller and lighter, and this is a plus? I prefer my subs to be heavier and more robustly constructed, fer sure.
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post #372 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 07:15 AM
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I think you guys really need to put things in perspective...I haven't heard either one of these so I really cannot comment on them.

Just a quick story why I think someones perception maybe totally different from others...I had the opurtunity to listen to a mfw and a 3.3 in the same room....All I heard at that time was how great the mfw and seriuosly thought about purchasing one, but I had a chance to hear them side by side in the same location.

the 3.3 outperformed the MFW in extension and the output was closely similar with the nod to 3.3. With measurements the 3.3 did go lower and louder, but as far as articualting the sound by MY EAR, the 3.3 sounded better...but you would still have to take that with a grain of salt...because they are my ears.
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post #373 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

but as far as articualting the sound by MY EAR, the 3.3 sounded better...but you would still have to take that with a grain of salt...because they are my ears.

That's where the problem can lie hidden, though. If you're listening to a flat response from both subs, then your ears and preference are all that's left. But, if you're listening to a huge dip in the frequency range, then there's a problem.

I went for years with a 58hz dip...no, canyon...in my sub's response. Thought it sounded spectacular, too. Ears are dangerous without knowing what you're actually hearing.

I don't mean to imply that you weren't aware of all that. Just reiterating since it can't be said enough.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #374 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 07:49 AM
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I concur with most of what you said. I had both the 3.3 and MFW. In my room the MFW had more extension and the 3.3 had a flatter response. Before and after eq'ing them the 3.3 had a better sound, not even close to my ears.

I now have a ported 18.2.2 driven by a measly 500 watt Oaudio amp. I think that is is easily two of the MFW or 3.3's. Sounds better, hits harder and is very dynamic. This is from -20 to -15. Can it do 130db's at 50hz? I have no idea. To me it sounds fantastic. But if I were to get some of you in my home to listen to it I am sure some would say it sounds like sh*t. To each there own.

As far as listening the ED or Chase sub, never had the pleasure and I wish I could give them a listen to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

I think you guys really need to put things in perspective...I haven't heard either one of these so I really cannot comment on them.

Just a quick story why I think someones perception maybe totally different from others...I had the opurtunity to listen to a mfw and a 3.3 in the same room....All I heard at that time was how great the mfw and seriuosly thought about purchasing one, but I had a chance to hear them side by side in the same location.

the 3.3 outperformed the MFW in extension and the output was closely similar with the nod to 3.3. With measurements the 3.3 did go lower and louder, but as far as articualting the sound by MY EAR, the 3.3 sounded better...but you would still have to take that with a grain of salt...because they are my ears.

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post #375 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 08:10 AM
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I know nothing about these reviewers, but this sounds suspect??? For some reason, when I read this several times, it just doesn't sound right...I thought the 18.1 were not pretty to look at by others. It just sounds like a pitch.

"When you take both subs though and consider all factors the 18.1 has a better finish, at LEAST equal performance, a better SQ to it, a much better warranty, and let's not forget no two month wait time, it's not that hard of a choice when you add all that up."

When you review something, you shouldn't favor one over the other or put emphasis on which one you would prefer...state your opinions on each one and thats it, let the person decide which sub is right for them...very similar to what audioholics are doing...PERIOD!


IMO, you are discrediting your own review....I think you need to use #'s, not your personal hearing taste.
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post #376 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 08:22 AM
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post #377 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 08:24 AM
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It is nearly Oscar-worthy, isn't it?
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post #378 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 08:24 AM
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Oh the DRAMA !!!!

Warp, lucky for you and I its never our drama

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post #379 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I recall the 1300 watt A7s-450 being smacked down by a Chase 18.1 sub powered by only 500 watts in a head-to-head comparison. That shows what can happen if you get too hung up on power.

it only takes the driver that has +4dB sensitivity to need 500Watts instead of 1300Watts. We need to remember what happens when we increase sensitivity/effeciency...There are ALWAYS trade offs in all speaker and subwoofer designs.

What I do not understand is that why all the 18.1 fans didnt buy the JBL pro audio 18" subs for the past 5 years???? This design has existed forever in the pro audio world. It just shows how little design knowledge exists and how marketing, online frenzies can make it easy for some to think this is something new.

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post #380 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

How about unsubstantiated claims concerned SQ? How about unsubstantiated claims about extension and distortion? How about the fact that the CHT is said to be smaller and lighter, and this is a plus? I prefer my subs to be heavier and more robustly constructed, fer sure.

Seriously if you want to learn all about any of these designs there is always a generic discussion thread that can be created in the DIY forum. The experts who have been building them for years will explain the pro audio (neodynium magnets - lighter weight, higher sensitivity, lower Xmax) driver vs common subwoofer (lower sensitivity, higher xmax, heavier materials).

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post #381 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Ok. so this is my BIGGEST problem with the Audioholics reviews of both the HSU and the Rythmic subs....they call them both good and bad in teh same breath. They call both subs visually pleasing and then say in the next sentence that they are nothing to cheer about...and are "utilitarian" at best. I find it VERY hard to understand how they can give these subs 5 star ratings but then point out some very obvious flaws in each..including lack of performance AND call them "budget" subs at $1000, and $1400 respectively?

I smell something here...and it sure isnt' ROSES!

and again, not being a fanboy at all...but just pointing out the OBVIOUS in case you missed it.....why would ANYONE consider either of these subs at this price point with only a 350watt rms amp (which he calls suspect) and a 600 watt amp (which he refers to as a PITA to use and decode) when you can buy an Elemental Designs A7S-450 for $850.00 SHIPPED to your door, and for less than either of them done in a gloss black finish? I just don't get it!!!

This is again why I will say without a doubt in my mind (call me what you will if it makes you feel better) that the Elemental Designs A7S-450 with an 18" high excursion heavy duty driver and a 1300 watts RMS amplifier WITH an incredible finish is by far and away the BEST BUY IN SUBWOOFERS ON THE MARKET TODAY.



Period.

I love how you say you are not a "fan boy" but every other post you make is about ED... I wouldn't say Rythmik got a bad review. How many Rythmik subs have you heard? I'm sure ED is great, but please stop pretending not to be a "fan boy." I've only been on this forum for 4-5 months and you sir are the biggest fanboy I have come across.

EDIT: Just curious, out of all the most recommended subs HSU VTF-15H, Rythmik F15, SVS, and so on... How many of these have you heard?

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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post #382 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

and again, not being a fanboy at all...but just pointing out the OBVIOUS in case you missed it.....why would ANYONE consider either of these subs at this price point with only a 350watt rms amp (which he calls suspect) and a 600 watt amp (which he refers to as a PITA to use and decode) when you can buy an Elemental Designs A7S-450 for $850.00 SHIPPED to your door, and for less than either of them done in a gloss black finish? I just don't get it!!!



Period.

Let's see, some might disagree and say why buy a DIY-like box from a company with a massive number of customer service and quality complaints, with so-so reviews, when you could buy something that has been tested, tested well, sounds great, and is backed by a company with stellar support? To each his own. I don't want a pimped out red box with a silver cone, but some do.
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post #383 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:39 AM
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I think Mojo also needs to remember to add emoticons to his posts for the added sarcasm, but hey, it's fun to watch the responses come afterwards.

Speaking of the issue of "reviews without measurements", let's not forget the Stereophile mag ("expert reviewers") comments regarding the PB13 vs the DD18 and F113 in which they claimed the PB13 simply "didn't have the deep bass impact" of the other two. They must have not liked Ilkka's numbers much.

Speaking of "ire", the HSU thread is becoming interesting. Apparently everyone is shocked at the frequency response curve (I know you're not Mojo ... even if you posted you were! :P well, unless you missed the earlier discussion on it), even though Bosso pointed this out a while back.

 

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post #384 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:44 AM
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For the record, I dig the red box. Wouldn't work in my house, but looks cool.

 

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Quote:

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #385 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I think Mojo also needs to remember to add emoticons to his posts for the added sarcasm, but hey, it's fun to watch the responses come afterwards.

Speaking of the issue of "reviews without measurements", let's not forget the Stereophile mag ("expert reviewers") comments regarding the PB13 vs the DD18 and F113 in which they claimed the PB13 simply "didn't have the deep bass impact" of the other two. They must have not liked Ilkka's numbers much.

Speaking of "ire", the HSU thread is becoming interesting. Apparently everyone is shocked at the frequency response curve (I know you're not Mojo ... even if you posted you were! :P well, unless you missed the earlier discussion on it), even though Bosso pointed this out a while back.

To me, the response curve looks like what I would call 30hz tuning, not 20hz tuning.
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post #386 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

To me, the response curve looks like what I would call 30hz tuning, not 20hz tuning.

Since the graph provided by HSU shows the same 30 Hz roll-off with no ports plugged, Audioholics' measurement without any power compression is pretty similar to the HSU graph.

It starts to get a little complicated with multiple variables like the Q control and the port/plugs.
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post #387 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

To me, the response curve looks like what I would call 30hz tuning, not 20hz tuning.

Agreed, the reviewer explains it here ...

Quote:


Unfortunately we had time to only measure and listen to one mode (all ports open). As seen in the curves provided by the manufacturer, the one port open mode should provide true below 20 Hz extension (at reasonable SPL levels), an overdamped response (gentle downward sloping response), with stronger output at 16 and 20 Hz, but slightly less output in the 25 - 32 Hz range (port output actually cancels woofer output at 16 and 20 Hz in the two ports open position)

So one port would have given you the 20hz tune, with lesser output above 20hz.

 

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post #388 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Let's get them both tested, so we don't have to rely on amateur enthusiasts.

Yup.

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post #389 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

To me, the response curve looks like what I would call 30hz tuning, not 20hz tuning.

Yeah, didn't reviewer said both ports open tuning was 28hz?

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post #390 of 797 Old 02-03-2011, 10:38 AM
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HSU calls it 22hz tuning.
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