Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Actually, I find the shootout shared here in this forum to be better than what Gene did at AH.

While their review was fantastic and a fun read, do you really find using a Rat Shack meter and posting "peak SPL" numbers during a scene that could be minutes long and consists of a huge range of frequencies better than a controlled test with expensive measuring equipment which show the full frequency response of a sub from a low output up to the point where it compresses along with CEA-2010 numbers? I.e., aren't you curious why, for instance, they seemed to feel the Epik was hitting deeper than the other subs or felt like it "stood taller" than the others, even though the numbers show otherwise? Just one example of what the numbers aren't showing.

Don't get me wrong, I found AH sold themselves WAY short by not including sweeps of the subs in their various tuning modes, not showing the relative numbers on the FR sweeps, not posting more measurements like spectral decay, group delay etc (which I think are all available in that software?), found the reviews to be contradictory at times, but I'd take GP frequency response, compression data and CEA-2010 numbers over an in-room review any day.

Why? Because as enthusiasts we don't have the gear or understanding to take these measurements ourselves and they aren't available for 99% of the subs out there (outside of whatever data is released by any particular sub manufacturer which has to be a) taken with a grain of salt as it is not an independent measurement and b) usually only shows what the manufacturer wants us to see vs all measurements), further, knowing how a sub performs in a quasi-anechoic environment gives a lot more knowledge about its actual stand-alone performance than how it performs in someone else's room which will be very different from your room.

Wow.

 

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post #452 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Ultimately, we get what we get. I found all 3 reviews so far comprehensive and competitive. You get raw data, description, subjective comments and nitpicks. It's up to us to decide what's important and what to dismiss.

... and one could guess to within 1 or 2 db what each of the various tuning modes would do to the max CEA-2010 numbers posted by AH. Just head over to the Shack and take a look at the VTF-3 or PB13 numbers to name but two that were tested in their "Max Output" vs "Max Extension" or "10/15/20hz" tunes.

I do wish that they had an index with a "data dump" or whatever from the measurement software with all the graphs it provides. Mind you, then there would be limitless questions about "what does that mean"...

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #453 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:16 PM
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... and one could guess to within 1 or 2 db what each of the various tuning modes would do to the max CEA-2010 numbers posted by AH. Just head over to the Shack and take a look at the VTF-3 or PB13 numbers to name but two that were tested in their "Max Output" vs "Max Extension" or "10/15/20hz" tunes.

I do wish that they had an index with a "data dump" or whatever from the measurement software with all the graphs it provides. Mind you, then there would be limitless questions about "what does that mean"...

mind you that you would come back and find another broblem....
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post #454 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Why would audioholics choose to test the subs in the horizontal position? Since the feet on the HSU are on the bottom, it only makes sense to test it that way. Every picture I saw of Ilkka testing a sub outdoors had the subwoofer in the vertical position.

This entire shootout created as much confusion as it did illuminating the peformance differences among the group of subs tested.

I also think that the SVS PB-12 Plus DSP got repeated mention of being an output monster, meanwhile the Rythmik had some very loud numbers.

Seems like the deck was stacked from the beginning.

How much advertising does SVS do on Audioholics? SVS is much larger company than the other contenders.

Doesn't all boil down to the CEA numbers?

1) In order to test it ground plane, and to keep an equal distance between the drivers and the ports on items that are of varying heights, the sub was laid on it's side (just like all the other subs, which all have feet on the bottom), and the microphone was laid on the ground pointed at the center. The testing methodology was thoroughly laid out in the article in December before any of the results were published, and all of the manufacturers (including Hsu) signed off on it before the testing was done. Dr. Hsu was well aware of the testing procedures when the VTF-15 was submitted and tested.

2) Confusion likely is resulting from a combination of a forum declared king not performing to educated guesses and going against what Galbraith coined "Conventional wisdom." The tests didn't create as much confusion as the uproar and crazy theories put out by people on the forums did.

3) The Rythmik put out awesome numbers, but so did the SVS, with the SVS actually putting out more output at 20Hz. The SVS had the smallest box of the three tested so far, the smallest driver, and put out tremendous output (all three subs so far have posted excellent numbers really). But the reviews did go over other items on the subs. The SVS was deemed ugly and the author had some issues learning how to use the different interface that the new Sledge amps use. The Rythmik had finish issues, the author claimed issues getting it to blend properly with his system, stating it took more work but was able to be done, and had some issues with the amp's controls/labels/verbiage. Issues were also mentioned regarding the Hsu, which seemed to be inline with comments made regarding the others, by a professional audio engineer who has done design work for a living for decades now.

4) SVS has no advertising on Audioholics, and there has been contention between the publication and SVS in the past, so it is not like they are buddy-buddy. I'd also say that Hsu has at least as much name recognition and respect as SVS. I do not know the sales numbers of either SVS or Hsu, but it seems silly to say that one company is larger than the other and therefore some kind of fix was in.

5) The results and review were given to the manufacturers before publication. The reviews were also peer reviewed. I'd imagine if factual errors occurred and had slipped through the previous pre-testing process, they should and would be caught in the peer review and manufacturer review periods before publication. It took me something like 10 minutes to read the review, the manufacturer was given two business days, which is ample time.

6) In order to create a testing scenario where all products can be easily cross-referenced, it is best to choose one setting. Since many people cling on to SPL-drag race numbers and the tests were being done with CEA-2010 which doesn't test below 20Hz anyway, testing in max output modes (whichever mode/setting that may be, based off of information from the manufacturer) makes the most sense. Spending time listening to results of other modes, of which all the subs provided have many, inevitably end up being referred to as subjective fluff or creating a new set of biases for subs that have some configuration option that others don't. If the goal is to test and then compare the results against other products, why bother spending the time, money and effort on doing these? If the items was a stand-alone, non-comparative, solo product piece, then explore the different features. If trying to compare items, get them to be as comparable as possible. These reviews were always intended to be put together as a comparison amongst the different products, therefore you want comparable tests, not long winded explorations into every feature and possible configuration of each product.

7) I am repeating this point but I feel it needs to be repeated. This review series was done by a third-party with decades of experience, with years of actual engineering education and experience. To imply that the review was "fixed" implies that a person was willing to damage his reputation (as well as the publications, and potentially the manufacturers) for some menial sum of money. None of the companies involved here are big enough to offer "retirement" levels of bribes. The point is ridiculous to even have to belabor but apparently it needed to be done.

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post #455 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by a/v HD fan View Post

Think about it, the article/review was written, revised/edited, allegedly shared with the manufacturer, and, finally, posted to the site. For it to be further edited to "soften some language" and pump up the review a bit in response to some negative feedback is... well, at the very least, it's interesting, isn't it? If you don't feel that raises legitimate questions about journalistic integrity... we'll have to just agree to disagree. I'm fine with that.

No, I think we agree on the fundamental issue, but my position is just that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Like that quote you posted, it's all about finding a good balance between

1) Quality manufacturers wanting to send you products so that
2) Consumers can actually find stuff we want to buy



If everyone were peter aczel, no one would send you things they want you to review!

Wait, when was the last time peter aczel even reviewed something? Apparently my only two options for accurate sound reproduction are some kitchen sink pipes that can do about 90db and a $9000 dipole.
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post #456 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

1) In order to test it ground plane, and to keep an equal distance between the drivers and the ports on items that are of varying heights, the sub was laid on it's side (just like all the other dubs, which all have feet on the bottom), and the microphone was laid on the ground pointed at the center. The testing methodology was thoroughly laid out in the article in December before any of the results were published, and all of the manufacturers (including Hsu) signed off on it before the testing was done. Dr. Hsu was well aware of the testing procedures when the VTF-15 was submitted and tested.

2) Confusion likely is resulting from a combination of a forum declared king not performing to educated guesses and going against what Galbraith coined "Conventional wisdom." The tests didn't create as much confusion as the uproar and crazy theories put out by people on the forums did.

3) The Rythmik put out awesome numbers, but so did the SVS, with the SVS actually putting out more output at 20Hz. The SVS had the smallest box of the three tested so far, the smallest driver, and put out tremendous output (all three subs so far have posted excellent numbers really). But the reviews did go over other items on the subs. The SVS was deemed ugly and the author had some issues learning how to use the different interface that the new Sledge amps use. The Rythmik had finish issues, the author claimed issues getting it to blend properly with his system, stating it took more work but was able to be done, and had some issues with the amps controls/labels/verbiage. Issues were also mentioned regarding the Hsu, which seemed to be inline with comments made regarding the others, by a professional audio engineer who does design work for a living for decades now.

4) SVS has no advertising on Audioholics, and there has been contention between the publication and SVS in the past, so it is not like they are buddy-buddy. I'd also say that Hsu has at least as much name recognition and respect as SVS. I do not know the sales numbers of either SVS or Hsu, but it seems silly to say that one company is larger than the other and therefore some kind of fix was in.

5) The results and review were given to the manufacturers before publication. The reviews were also peer reviewed. I'd imagine if factual errors occurred and had slipped through the previous pre-testing process, they should and would be caught in the peer review and manufacturer review periods before publication. It took me something like 10 minutes to read the review, the manufacturer was given two business days, which is ample time.

6) In order to create a testing scenario where all products can be easily cross-referenced, it is best to choose one setting. Since many people cling on to SPL-drag race numbers and the tests were being done with CEA-2010 which doesn't test below 20Hz anyway, testing in max output modes (whichever that may be based off of information from the manufacturer) makes the most sense. Spending time listening to results of other modes, of which all the subs provided have many, inevitably end up being referred to as subjective fluff or creating a new set of biases for subs that have some configuration option that others don't. If the goal is to test and then compare the results against other products, why bother spending the time, money and effort on doing these? If the items was a stand-alone, non-comparative, solo product piece, then explore the different features. If trying to compare items, get them to be as comparable as possible. These reviews were always intended to be put together as a comparison amongst the different products, therefore you want comparable tests, not long winded explorations into every feature and possible configuration of each product.

7) I am repeating this point but I feel it needs to be repeated. This review series was done by a third-party with decades of experience, with years of actual engineering education and experience. To imply that the review was "fixed" implies that a person was willing to damage his reputation (as well as the publications, and potentially the manufacturers) for some menial sum of money. None of the companies involved here are big enough to offer "retirement" levels of bribes. The point is ridiculous to even have to belabor but apparently it needed to be done.

Wow, someone actually took that much time to reply to Spyboy!

Seriously, re: point 5, did Gene post that somewhere? I.e., that the actual results were submitted to each manufacturer for review before it was posted?

The thing I find most odd about this is that HSU obviously felt comfortable enough in their own numbers to send to AH for the review. So it does seem somewhat odd that they are now in shock at the AH numbers that came back, while the other manufacturer's seem to be fine with it (even more odd if they saw the numbers, though maybe they're just reacting to the uproar).

Unless, in fact, there were/are issues with HSU's own measuring equipment? For instance, an uncalibrated mic maybe??? That is just one reason you typically want the same person using the same equipment measuring things if possible, for comparability/repeatability.

 

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Quote:

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #457 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:39 PM
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Seriously, re: point 5, did Gene post that somewhere? I.e., that the actual results were submitted to each manufacturer for review before it was posted?

Yep, right here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...&postcount=610
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post #458 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post


Seriously, re: point 5, did Gene post that somewhere? I.e., that the actual results were submitted to each manufacturer for review before it was posted?

Here you go, it is from the AH forum, post 608

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Originally Posted by gene View Post

Sorry but that is a tough pill to swallow (3-4 dB is alot, 1 dB maybe). Had that been the case, it should have been brought up prior to the measurements being conducted.

We always desire to accurately reflect the true performance of products in our reviews to the best of our abilities. This is why manufacturers are given our full review and measurement data at least 2 business days prior to publishing to ensure accuracy.

For future sub reviews, I will try to get our reviewers to conduct measurements to test all viable port modes that consumers may use for the product.


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post #459 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

1) In order to test it ground plane, and to keep an equal distance between the drivers and the ports on items that are of varying heights, the sub was laid on it's side (just like all the other dubs, which all have feet on the bottom), and the microphone was laid on the ground pointed at the center. The testing methodology was thoroughly laid out in the article in December before any of the results were published, and all of the manufacturers (including Hsu) signed off on it before the testing was done. Dr. Hsu was well aware of the testing procedures when the VTF-15 was submitted and tested.

2) Confusion likely is resulting from a combination of a forum declared king not performing to educated guesses and going against what Galbraith coined "Conventional wisdom." The tests didn't create as much confusion as the uproar and crazy theories put out by people on the forums did.

3) The Rythmik put out awesome numbers, but so did the SVS, with the SVS actually putting out more output at 20Hz. The SVS had the smallest box of the three tested so far, the smallest driver, and put out tremendous output (all three subs so far have posted excellent numbers really). But the reviews did go over other items on the subs. The SVS was deemed ugly and the author had some issues learning how to use the different interface that the new Sledge amps use. The Rythmik had finish issues, the author claimed issues getting it to blend properly with his system, stating it took more work but was able to be done, and had some issues with the amps controls/labels/verbiage. Issues were also mentioned regarding the Hsu, which seemed to be inline with comments made regarding the others, by a professional audio engineer who does design work for a living for decades now.

4) SVS has no advertising on Audioholics, and there has been contention between the publication and SVS in the past, so it is not like they are buddy-buddy. I'd also say that Hsu has at least as much name recognition and respect as SVS. I do not know the sales numbers of either SVS or Hsu, but it seems silly to say that one company is larger than the other and therefore some kind of fix was in.

5) The results and review were given to the manufacturers before publication. The reviews were also peer reviewed. I'd imagine if factual errors occurred and had slipped through the previous pre-testing process, they should and would be caught in the peer review and manufacturer review periods before publication. It took me something like 10 minutes to read the review, the manufacturer was given two business days, which is ample time.

6) In order to create a testing scenario where all products can be easily cross-referenced, it is best to choose one setting. Since many people cling on to SPL-drag race numbers and the tests were being done with CEA-2010 which doesn't test below 20Hz anyway, testing in max output modes (whichever that may be based off of information from the manufacturer) makes the most sense. Spending time listening to results of other modes, of which all the subs provided have many, inevitably end up being referred to as subjective fluff or creating a new set of biases for subs that have some configuration option that others don't. If the goal is to test and then compare the results against other products, why bother spending the time, money and effort on doing these? If the items was a stand-alone, non-comparative, solo product piece, then explore the different features. If trying to compare items, get them to be as comparable as possible. These reviews were always intended to be put together as a comparison amongst the different products, therefore you want comparable tests, not long winded explorations into every feature and possible configuration of each product.

7) I am repeating this point but I feel it needs to be repeated. This review series was done by a third-party with decades of experience, with years of actual engineering education and experience. To imply that the review was "fixed" implies that a person was willing to damage his reputation (as well as the publications, and potentially the manufacturers) for some menial sum of money. None of the companies involved here are big enough to offer "retirement" levels of bribes. The point is ridiculous to even have to belabor but apparently it needed to be done.

you work for AH?...
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post #460 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dabrick7 View Post

Yep, right here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...&postcount=610

Oh yeah ... I remember reading that now. Thx.

 

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post #461 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:46 PM
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you work for AH?...

Yes, just like the people "emailing you" to try the Rythmik and SVS subs over your dual VTF-15's work for those companies. NTrain, while I won't defend his at times absurd posts, doesn't work for any company.

Wait a minute .... do you work for HSU?

 

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post #462 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:48 PM
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I read that thread.

Curious why he only outed one person since he implied it was several people recommending several different IDs.
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post #463 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:51 PM
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Yes, just like the people "emailing you" to try the Rythmik and SVS subs over your dual VTF-15's work for those companies. NTrain, while I won't defend his at times absurd posts, doesn't work for any company.

Wait a minute .... do you work for HSU?

Right!...pfftt...just like we dont know or notice when people are working for other manufacturers and try to bash some other of them!...IT IS SO OBVIOUS!!....
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Yes, just like the people "emailing you" to try the Rythmik and SVS subs over your dual VTF-15's work for those companies. NTrain, while I won't defend his at times absurd posts, doesn't work for any company.

Wait a minute .... do you work for HSU?

What, you work for AH? You certainly seem to have a pro AH bias.

Edit, I went back to see the entire post that you quoted from, and see it only appeared that the poster was calling you a AH employee! I withdraw the comment.
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post #465 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:58 PM
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Good Lord.

 

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post #466 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

The reasoning for not testing all the tuning options for these 3 subs must have been discussed before hand...and agreed upon. You've got one sub remaining in the shootout that doesn't have tuning options. There were originally 7 tested. So 4 of the original subs were sans tuning options. To be fair to all participants, the subs were tested as shipped. 3 pulled out, that's not the reveiwers fault, AH's or the testing methodology.

I'm guessing cost was also a factor. The reviewer is a pro and get's paid for his time. It's not just the testing, organization and the writing time are involved. I don't know how far along the reviewer was with this project when people started dropping out, but I bet considerable expense was endured. How many hours? How much did the reviewer cost? I'm not qualified, but have done some consulting and project management. I wouldn't touch this for less than $150/hr. You do the math. This shootout started in October and got published in January. I'll bet the hours added up.

Ultimately, we get what we get. I found all 3 reviews so far comprehensive and competitive. You get raw data, description, subjective comments and nitpicks. It's up to us to decide what's important and what to dismiss.

I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic. With a paid reviewer, one would think there was a plan and a budget. If several units were pulled out at the last minute, wouldn't they have more time/resources to spend more time properly reviewing what was left? I think we are blowing the time it takes for some of this, way out of proportion. How much time does it take to flip a switch, plug a port and run a few sweeps? Not that long.
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And btw i think AH and Paul in particular are in much more trouble then HSU can be!....when you get your review ''reviewed'' lol...and corrected sorry but that isnt a good sign!!...''paper driver'' means nothing !..there are DIY subs made with paper drivers and they are awesome!!......amp that can get very hot?...not enough power?...uhmm...i played at very high volumes today for more then 2 hours and the amp was still cold...i could keep going but not now.....end of story for me i own a VTF-15H and it is the best damn commercial sub i never owned at twice cheaper then the others!...im off preparing to watch the superbowl...have a good one....
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post #468 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 01:03 PM
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you work for AH?...

No, I just try to think before I make absurd accusations.

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post #469 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 01:25 PM
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for me i own a VTF-15H and it is the best damn commercial sub i never owned


I find this line the best of yours yet, considering.

Keep 'em coming as I truly enjoy them.
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post #470 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 01:33 PM
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I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic. With a paid reviewer, one would think there was a plan and a budget. If several units were pulled out at the last minute, wouldn't they have more time/resources to spend more time properly reviewing what was left? I think we are blowing the time it takes for some of this, way out of proportion. How much time does it take to flip a switch, plug a port and run a few sweeps? Not that long.

All 7 subs were tested. Only Earthquake pulled out early. 4 of the subs didn't have tuning options. I'd guess notes were taken, drafts were probably written as well. The project changed, but you're asking to redo the scope of work. I'd ask for a change order on the contract if I were doing this for more dollars as the subs had already been tested, probably the drafts too.

You're looking at this from an enthusiast's perspective because you want more detail or you want vindication for a product or something. IDK. It is what it is.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #471 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 01:33 PM
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I find this line the best of yours yet, considering.

Keep 'em coming as I truly enjoy them.

considering what ?... oh well anyway do you really think i care about your sarcasism..and your arrogance...and narsicism lol...considering that you sound so self estimed and selfish....im done talking to you...
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post #472 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post

considering what ?... oh well anyway do you really think i care about your sarcasism..and your arrogance...and narsicism lol...considering that you sound so self estimed and selfish....im done talking to you...

Considering you almost dumped the VTF without even taking it out of the box.

The rest of your post is gibberish and makes no sense.
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post #473 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dabrick7 View Post

Considering you almost dumped the VTF without even taking it out of the box.

The rest of your post is gibberish and makes no sense.

what of the rest of my post makes no sense?..the fact that he said ''paper'' driver just to disminish the sub?..the fact that saying the amp wasnt powerfull enough and could get on fire?....sorry his review yes almost got me sick cause my VTF-15h was already ordered...and btw i am not the only one!...the amp doesnt get hot at all..how can you interprete that a lie?...already biased?..he stated that he didnt like the bash amps.. and tell me that a paper driver means so much to you!!....i owned subwoofers costing twice more with high quality woofer but they were botomming out and clapping!....should a ''professional '' reviewer know all that already?...whatever....
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post #474 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post

.the fact that he said ''paper'' driver just to disminish the sub?..

Reading comprehension much? He specifically said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Apolliono in the HSU Review View Post

The cone is paper, and the edge a relatively large diameter half roll foam surround, pretty standard stuff for inexpensive loudspeakers. Frankly, for a subwoofer, as long as the cone won't break from the stress of forces, anything commonly used if made of a sufficient thickness (which for different materials means a different mass of course) is going to be pistonic, a term meaning it will act like an air pump, and simply push and pull the air alternately setting up those low frequency waves we enjoy so much. Even paper is hard enough to be acting like a simple piston (what you want) at subwoofer frequencies.

That's not diminishing it. It's pointing out facts. It's your inherent bias to the idea of paper that diminishes it... NOT THE REVIEW!

Quote:


the fact that saying the amp wasnt powerfull enough and could get on fire?

The Review was sent to HSU 2 business days prior. It was THEIR MISTAKE to not point out that the amp does not run hot. All The review did was point out the lack of heatsinking - a VALID OBSERVATION!

Quote:


....sorry his review yes almost got me sick cause my VTF-15h was already ordered...


Because you were expecting a circle jerk about how it's the best subwoofer on the planet when it clearly isn't. He gave it a four out of five for performance, a five out of five for value and showered it with plenty of praise that your reading comprehension could not find!


Quote:


..the amp doesnt get hot at all..how can you interprete that a lie?..

.

He said it COULD GET HOT because it LACKED HEATSINKING. Now, class D designs inherently don't get that hot, and 350w is very light duty for a sub amp, but it's definitely very unusual for any amplifier to lack heatsinking.

Quote:


?..he stated that he didnt like the bash amps..

Not many people do.

Quote:


and tell me that a paper driver means so much to you!!


clearly it didn't mean much to him because he pointed out that it doesn't, although other materials do have their advantages for other applications. Of course you failed to properly read what he actually said!

Quote:


....i owned subwoofers costing twice more with high quality woofer but they were botomming out and clapping!....should a ''professional '' reviewer know all that already?...whatever....

Huh? He gave it freaking five out of freaking five for value. Just because you overpaid for some crappy paradigm sub few here would ever buy does not make you an expert. Reality is the gist of his review said this and I'm paraphrasing here but I think no one would disagree with me

"The HSU VTF-15 is an excellent series of compromises with outstanding performance at its price point, although there are better, more expensive subs out there. There are some minor issues worth noting and in the mode I had time to listen to it didn't sound quite as tight as the other subs in the Audioholics shootout but sealing a vent or both should help in that regard at the cost of raw output. If you're willing to spend more money on some of the other subs in this shootout you truly are getting more overall but if this is your price point then this is simply excellent"

And your response to that was

"WHAT IT'S NOT THE BEST SUB IN THE WORLD OH MY GOD I'M RETURNING IT RIGHT NOW BEFORE I EVEN OPEN THE BOX! I HATE HSU! IT'S GONNA LIGHT ON FIRE BECAUSE PAPER BURNS WHEN IT'S TOO HOT AND HE SAID THE AMP COULD GET HOT SO IT PROBABLY WILL SET MY HOUSE ON FIRE OH MY GOD."

and HSU's response to you was

"****, if this is how dumb customers are, we shouldn't be letting audioholics review our products."

and audioholic's response to you and HSU was

"****, if this is how dumb customers are even though HSU made what is clearly a sweet product, we need to examine the review because HSU is a potential advertiser and we'd like to continue reviewing their excellent products"

And as far as I can tell, the things audioholics changed about the review are

-The amp heatsinking part seems to have been removed. Of course, it should have been removed before being posted had HSU read the review and contacted audioholics and responded BEFOREHAND!

- underlining simple concepts to really help really dumb people comprehend the review

- First-Party graphs were added along with comments that they are in fact First Party graphs.

So a few concensus' that can be reached would be

1) That some people are dumb and can't read reviews properly and have panic attacks when they fail to read the whole paragraph as it is written.

2) That some companies submit products for reviews, get sent those reviews for verification, and fail to actually verify factual validity on things.

3) That some reviewers, whether due to time or whatever, do fail to fully test products as they are designed, although they do take the time to point out how something should behave in untested scenarios.

So who's wrong? ALL THREE PARTIES! Except me. Because I know better.

The ultimate reality is this:

One year from now, when someone reads the review as it is now, they will have a very good idea as to whether it's the right subwoofer for them.

In fact it's a better subwoofer review than most I've ever read. Admit it, everyone here's idea of a subwoofer review is an AVSFORUM post about "Slam, Precision, and War of the Worlds"
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post #475 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 02:26 PM
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I don't know why this review has blown up so much. The VTF-15H got the best buy!!!!! It is said to be well engineered and and the best bang for the buck!!! If I got anything from the review it was that he wished the HSU cost $400 more to make and to buy so it would have wooped up. I love mine but if I had more sub money I may have gotten something else.

All three tested so far are awesome subs that I believe all perform and look amazing for the cost. The choice of sub should be more room and budget dependent between the subs. Nobody should feel the need to defend their sub as they had to be nitpicked because they are all so close. If you had another $500 budget why didn't you use it. Be happy at the performance you have for the money you spent and if your sub is one of the three so far, you should be enjoying it as it is shown to be very nice.

I am also looking forward to the funky waves review because I haven't heard too much about 3rd party testing of their stuff. It seems they would be a viable alternative, and definitely one to look at for Canadians paying $300 or more to get a sub shipped up to them.
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post #476 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post
Reading comprehension much? He specifically said:



That's not diminishing it. It's pointing out facts. It's your inherent bias to the idea of paper that diminishes it... NOT THE REVIEW!



The Review was sent to HSU 2 business days prior. It was THEIR MISTAKE to not point out that the amp does not run hot. All The review did was point out the lack of heatsinking - a VALID OBSERVATION!




Because you were expecting a circle jerk about how it's the best subwoofer on the planet when it clearly isn't. He gave it a four out of five for performance, a five out of five for value and showered it with plenty of praise that your reading comprehension could not find!


.

He said it COULD GET HOT because it LACKED HEATSINKING. Now, class D designs inherently don't get that hot, and 350w is very light duty for a sub amp, but it's definitely very unusual for any amplifier to lack heatsinking.



Not many people do.




clearly it didn't mean much to him because he pointed out that it doesn't, although other materials do have their advantages for other applications. Of course you failed to properly read what he actually said!



Huh? He gave it freaking five out of freaking five for value. Just because you overpaid for some crappy paradigm sub few here would ever buy does not make you an expert. Reality is the gist of his review said this and I'm paraphrasing here but I think no one would disagree with me

"The HSU VTF-15 is an excellent series of compromises with outstanding performance at its price point, although there are better, more expensive subs out there. There are some minor issues worth noting and in the mode I had time to listen to it didn't sound quite as tight as the other subs in the Audioholics shootout but sealing a vent or both should help in that regard at the cost of raw output. If you're willing to spend more money on some of the other subs in this shootout you truly are getting more overall but if this is your price point then this is simply excellent"

And your response to that was

"WHAT IT'S NOT THE BEST SUB IN THE WORLD OH MY GOD I'M RETURNING IT RIGHT NOW BEFORE I EVEN OPEN THE BOX! I HATE HSU! IT'S GONNA LIGHT ON FIRE BECAUSE PAPER BURNS WHEN IT'S TOO HOT AND HE SAID THE AMP COULD GET HOT SO IT PROBABLY WILL SET MY HOUSE ON FIRE OH MY GOD."

and HSU's response to you was

"****, if this is how dumb customers are, we shouldn't be letting audioholics review our products."

and audioholic's response to you and HSU was

"****, if this is how dumb customers are even though HSU made what is clearly a sweet product, we need to examine the review because HSU is a potential advertiser and we'd like to continue reviewing their excellent products"

And as far as I can tell, the things audioholics changed about the review are

-The amp heatsinking part seems to have been removed. Of course, it should have been removed before being posted had HSU read the review and contacted audioholics and responded BEFOREHAND!

- underlining simple concepts to really help really dumb people comprehend the review

- First-Party graphs were added along with comments that they are in fact First Party graphs.

So a few concensus' that can be reached would be

1) That some people are dumb and can't read reviews properly and have panic attacks when they fail to read the whole paragraph as it is written.

2) That some companies submit products for reviews, get sent those reviews for verification, and fail to actually verify factual validity on things.

3) That some reviewers, whether due to time or whatever, do fail to fully test products as they are designed, although they do take the time to point out how something should behave in untested scenarios.

So who's wrong? ALL THREE PARTIES! Except me. Because I know better.
uhmm i wasnt expecting the best sub on earth first!..second i never said in any of my posts that i am an expert!...if you can read so well where did you see i said i was an expert??....quote me pls!....the fact that i owned subwoofers with bigger amps and supossidly better quality drivers doesnt make me an expert for sure i was just comparing!!....wow for a guy who read so well i think you read to much into things!...did you read this thead at all?...or you started by the last page?..i suggest that you start from page one and see that i am not and was not the only one thinking his review was biased...btw did you asked yourself why some manufacturers declined the shootout on AH?....you just bashed on paradigm in your post!...there are many kinds of jerks circles you are in the ''i am a god'' one!
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post
I don't know why this review has blown up so much. The VTF-15H got the best buy!!!!! It is said to be well engineered and and the best bang for the buck!!! If I got anything from the review it was that he wished the HSU cost $400 more to make and to buy so it would have wooped up. I love mine but if I had more sub money I may have gotten something else.
The bone of contention with some is that though the reviewer calls it a best buy, he then goes on to criticize all of the components!! The amp is too small, is a Bash, has no heat sinks, has a substandard crossover, has cheap speaker terminals/gain knob and he throws doubt on it's ability to achieve 1400 watts.
Then he criticizes the woofer, disappointed about its paper design and calling it standard fare for inexpensive designs. The box is big and heavy. The Q control doesn't work for music. It has little output at 20 Hz, but he didn't try the max extension configuration. On this part, either test the damn sub completely or don't test it at all. Us consumers expect a sub to tested fully to examine performance. As for testing them on their sides, how about testing them in the position they'll be used in? With a mic stand, is that so ridiculous?

My point is, how can you call a sub a best buy with all of these weaknesses? Or, how can you criticize a sub so extensively and still call it a best buy? It just has no integrity. But it's obvious that the reviewer is looking down his nose at this sub. That I can do without.

BTW, HSU says the heatsinks are on the other side of the amp. I have no idea, all I know is it has a 2 year warranty and a 7 year warranty on the cheap, pedestrian woofer.

And I don't own or sell HSU. I own a wimpy old Paradigm, and I'm looking to upgrade.
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post #478 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post
uhmm i wasnt expecting the best sub on earth first!..
Then how the HELL do you take a review that calls something a best buy, calls it an excellent series of compromises, gives it four out of five for performance relative to some absolutely excellent subs, gives it five out of five for value, and draw the conclusion that a subwoofer isn't even worth auditioning?



Quote:
second i never said in any of my posts that i am an expert!...if you can read so well where did you see i said i was an expert??....quote me pls!....
the fact that i owned subwoofers with bigger amps and supossidly better quality drivers doesnt make me an expert for sure i was just comparing!!....
Well it would help if your posts actually made sense as to what you're trying to say. I read your post as saying that

"I have had 2000 dollar subs and the HSU is better I can't believe the audioholics review doesn't think it's the best sub in the world OMFG"

Quote:
.i suggest that you start from page one and see that i am not and was not the only one thinking his review was biased...
Good for them. I don't care. I addressed your post because it was full of a bunch of ******** claims. Their opinions are purely conjecture and I don't care if they think it's all an audioholics conspiracy to sell us Emotiva, RBH, and SVS (did I forget Yamaha, sorry). I don't need to address conjecture because most people are intelligent enough to recognize it as such. I do need to address B.S. Claims.

Quote:
btw did you asked yourself why some manufacturers declined the shootout on AH?
Huh? No, because I've read that thread over there for the shootout in the first place. Although if we want to make wild claims I'll say it's because most sub companies make overpriced garbage and only the best of the best were left standing.

Quote:
....you just bashed on paradigm in your post!
So did you. You said you paid like $1500 for a 12 inch sealed sub that bottoms out probably because some other magazine said it's the most amazing subwoofer in its price class, yet you're not willing to read positives in an actually critical review.

Quote:
...there are many kinds of jerks circles you are in the ''i am a god'' one!
Lol. Okay there. Because I, and 90% of this board, have at least average reading comprehension ability, I think I'm god.
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post #479 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post
I don't know why this review has blown up so much. The VTF-15H got the best buy!!!!! It is said to be well engineered and and the best bang for the buck!!! ...
At first I was mystified too by the overblown fanboy reaction to that review but since then I think I've figured out why... these HSUies were actually expecting nothing less than a $879 'budget-limited' sub to put a big heap of whooping on the whole field of much more expensive subs... and when the VTF-15H didn't measure up to those lofty and unrealistic expectations they cried foul and hold AH and the reviewer responsible, instead of celebrating the fact that the VTF-15H is the hands-down best buy of the group. Yes, a strange reaction indeed... Luke I'm glad to see there's at least one owner who understands that cost is a major constraint in any sub design and saw the praise that was given to this fine sub in that article. It was by far the lowest costing sub in the shoot-out after all. Prehaps the other owners would have preferred to have read a shoot-out where the VTF-15H whipped up on other subs costing less?

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #480 of 797 Old 02-06-2011, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post
The bone of contention with some is that though the reviewer calls it a best buy, he then goes on to criticize all of the components!! The amp is too small, is a Bash, has no heat sinks, has a substandard crossover, has cheap speaker terminals/gain knob and he throws doubt on it's ability to achieve 1400 watts.
Then he criticizes the woofer, disappointed about its paper design and calling it standard fare for inexpensive designs. The box is big and heavy. The Q control doesn't work for music. It has little output at 20 Hz, but he didn't try the max extension configuration. On this part, either test the damn sub completely or don't test it at all. Us consumers expect a sub to tested fully to examine performance. As for testing them on their sides, how about testing them in the position they'll be used in? With a mic stand, is that so ridiculous?

My point is, how can you call a sub a best buy with all of these weaknesses? Or, how can you criticize a sub so extensively and still call it a best buy? It just has no integrity. But it's obvious that the reviewer is looking down his nose at this sub. That I can do without.

BTW, HSU says the heatsinks are on the other side of the amp. I have no idea, all I know is it has a 2 year warranty and a 7 year warranty on the cheap, pedestrian woofer.

And I don't own or sell HSU. I own a wimpy old Paradigm, and I'm looking to upgrade.
wow thx...another who read the same things then me...but i am stupid it appears....
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