Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 09:52 AM
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At a time when most published reviews that you see are little more than fluff-pieces (see almost any S&V review of anything), it sort of refreshing to see a reviewer say what he actually thinks about a piece of equipment. Of course the fanboys are not going to be happy with everything that is said, but the tests and the retests do seem to support the reviewer's position. A lesson to be learned is that there is no free lunch. HSU attempted to design and deliver a lot of sub for under $1k. They succeded and the reviewer acknowledges that by applauding it as the bang-for-the-buck winner, but obviously compromises had to be made. The sub is not that strong below 20hz. It is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.

If the sub sounded good to the owners before the review, nothing should have changed. Y'all should continue to enjoy your sub for a long time to come because it's exactly the same sub as it was before the review.
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post #632 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
At a time when most published reviews that you see are little more than fluff-pieces (see almost any S&V review of anything), it sort of refreshing to see a reviewer say what he actually thinks about a piece of equipment. Of course the fanboys are not going to be happy with everything that is said, but the tests and the retests do seem to support the reviewer's position. A lesson to be learned is that there is no free lunch. HSU attempted to design and deliver a lot of sub for under $1k. They succeded and the reviewer acknowledges that by applauding it as the bang-for-the-buck winner, but obviously compromises had to be made. The sub is not that strong below 20hz. It is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.

If the sub sounded good to the owners before the review, nothing should have changed. Y'all should continue to enjoy your sub for a long time to come because it's exactly the same sub as it was before the review.
Well put....

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post #633 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post
If you haven't seen a single review that didn't seem positive to you, then you are not a trustworthy judge of reviews.
I haven't seen a single review of the Hsu VTF-15H that hasn't been positive. If you have links to a negative review of that sub, please post a link. [waits for link to AH review]

Note that I said positive review, not gushing review. A positive review doesn't have to slobber all over the reviewed product, or declare it the best product ever.

Given that less than a half dozen posters have issues with the AH review, and everyone else seems to think it's positive, perhaps I'm not the one who isn't a trustworthy judge of reviews....

Remember, it can't be everyone else all the time!
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post #634 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

At any rate, all I expected was a professionally done review, not a rebuttal of criticisms which changes the tone of the review. I am fine with the measurements and data presented. I think this review is superior to Paul's first effort.
To be somewhat fair to Paul, as he pointed out, the fact that they would review the subs in one mode was made clear at the start and he simply reviewed the sub(s) in the configurations requested by the manufacturer. I.e., I agree I would have loved him to have provided measurements for more modes for all subs, but he was consistent in the approach and the manufacturer's were all aware of the approach in advance, and were the ones to suggest the modes/settings used.

Having said that, I wonder why he also didn't post distortion/group delay, etc. measurements, or sweep levels. When they said a 20 page report, I was expecting more.

But then, I'm never friggin happy.

Someone asked about the manufacturer's that bailed. Axiom bailed, and Earthquake was the one who threatened a lawsuit. I'm not sure who the other third was (I think it was mentioned that 2 bailed and 1 threatened a lawsuit).

 

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post #635 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I think people should just realize, based off of objective test results, that Jesus and Muhammad aren't going to re-appear out of a VTF-15's port holes and get on with their lives.
B*st*rd, I was drinking some hot coffee when I read this.

 

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post #636 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:33 AM
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Let's give Gene and AH some credit here. Due to the uprising that followed the original tests of the HSU, AH footed the expense of running additional tests in order to ensure that no errors were made the first time around. In addition to to the verification tests, all other tuning modes were tested as well. That I would call pretty good service to the audio community.
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post #637 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Let's give Gene and AH some credit here. Due to the uprising that followed the original tests of the HSU, AH footed the expense of running additional tests in order to ensure that no errors were made the first time around. In addition to to the verification tests, all other tuning modes were tested as well. That I would call pretty good service to the audio community.
Absolutely.

 

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post #638 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

To be somewhat fair to Paul, as he pointed out, the fact that they would review the subs in one mode was made clear at the start and he simply reviewed the sub(s) in the configurations requested by the manufacturer. I.e., I agree I would have loved him to have provided measurements for more modes for all subs, but he was consistent in the approach and the manufacturer's were all aware of the approach in advance, and were the ones to suggest the modes/settings used.

Having said that, I wonder why he also didn't post distortion/group delay, etc. measurements, or sweep levels. When they said a 20 page report, I was expecting more.

But then, I'm never friggin happy.

Someone asked about the manufacturer's that bailed. Axiom bailed, and Earthquake was the one who threatened a lawsuit. I'm not sure who the other third was (I think it was mentioned that 2 bailed and 1 threatened a lawsuit).

I think epik bailed out as well.. My guess is that they knew the numbers would be a bit less for the sealed empire and also it may have had a bit of a disadvantage since the drivers face opposite directions.. Given that most the people just go look at the numbers to determine what to buy it may have been in there best interest to stay out of this one. I'd love to see some professional reviews though so its too bad.
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post #639 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Axiom bailed

Which was the smart thing to do if they didn't think they'd measure up, which apparently they didn't. Better to leave a little optimism in there then to be beaten soundly by similarly priced options in a formal review.

EDIT: Kind of what mwolfe said about Epik in the above post.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #640 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:44 AM
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Of course, I have only been designing powered subs for 23 years now.

So do we have any examples of what this guy actually built. He comes across as extremely defensive and unprofessional. It felt like a grade school retort. I don't dispute his numbers but wow...to post something like that in a public space and call it a "professional" review is astonishing. Audiohoilics stock just went down a few points in my book.
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post #641 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by snowmanick View Post

i think people should just realize, based off of objective test results, that jesus and muhammad aren't going to re-appear out of a vtf-15's port holes and get on with their lives.

lol
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post #642 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

At a time when most published reviews that you see are little more than fluff-pieces (see almost any S&V review of anything), it sort of refreshing to see a reviewer say what he actually thinks about a piece of equipment. Of course the fanboys are not going to be happy with everything that is said, but the tests and the retests do seem to support the reviewer's position. A lesson to be learned is that there is no free lunch. HSU attempted to design and deliver a lot of sub for under $1k. They succeded and the reviewer acknowledges that by applauding it as the bang-for-the-buck winner, but obviously compromises had to be made. The sub is not that strong below 20hz. It is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.

If the sub sounded good to the owners before the review, nothing should have changed. Y'all should continue to enjoy your sub for a long time to come because it's exactly the same sub as it was before the review.


Good points, one reason I like that we try and discuss sub design, driver choice, amp choice, etc is because it removes the exaggerations that are common in reviews or even owner posts.

Every sub design has a compromise in it and I think its important to raise those compromises in discussions. More important that the "Wow, what a great sub" discussions.

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post #643 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DrewB View Post

So do we have any examples of what this guy actually built. He comes across as extremely defensive and unprofessional. It felt like a grade school retort. I don't dispute his numbers but wow...to post something like that in a public space and call it a "professional" review is astonishing. Audiohoilics stock just went down a few points in my book.

You should actually have more respect for the reviewer. The point of the update was that he could have been abrasive in the original review. The designer present during the testing. The testing parameters were agreed to. All subs were tested in their "suggested" configuration. The results were reviewed prior to releasing the original review. He had to retest in every possible configuration, which he did not do for the other subs. He had to deal with temper tantrums from owners of a sub he applauded for value. Why wouldn't he be annoyed?

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post #644 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:05 AM
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Personally, I don't blame him for being defensive since his reputation was being questioned based on the first review. I can understand his relief when the second readings backed up what he presented in the original review. Sure, he could have taken a higher road and not put his feelings into this but I really can't hold that against him.

Bob

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post #645 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mwolfe38 View Post

I think epik bailed out as well.. My guess is that they knew the numbers would be a bit less for the sealed empire and also it may have had a bit of a disadvantage since the drivers face opposite directions.. Given that most the people just go look at the numbers to determine what to buy it may have been in there best interest to stay out of this one. I'd love to see some professional reviews though so its too bad.

Epik declined...never in it...as did ED. I'm sure Chad's reasons were along the lines of your thinking though. It was posted that he was readying an uber product that he would submit at a later date. Axiom declined as well. It was SVS, Hsu, Rythmik, FW and the noshows, Earthquake (lawsuit), Salk and RBH.

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post #646 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:22 AM
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Someone asked about the manufacturer's that bailed. Axiom bailed, and Earthquake was the one who threatened a lawsuit. I'm not sure who the other third was (I think it was mentioned that 2 bailed and 1 threatened a lawsuit).

according to the original thread, Klipsch, Paradigm, Axiom, JL, Epik etc were all contacted and none ultimately ended up submitting. Seaton was not contacted for some reason but anyways, Axiom wanted to participate 'By their rules' of both testing and reviewer (they expected Apollonio to dislike their subpar product). They ended up pulling advertising from AH as well!

Next there were seven contestants. Earthquake, Svs, Salk, HSU, RBH, Rythmik, and Funkywaves. The earthquake in some ways bettered the others in measurement but they absolutely refused to let the review be posted, right down to threatening a lawsuit! Who would want their products knowing that? RBH and Salk likely just didnt measure up on a dollar to performance ratio and were probably offered an opporunity to silently bow out.
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post #647 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:32 AM
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So, outside of runnin any other Hsu fanboys coming out of their bunkers yet? Oh wait ...looks like some are peering their head over at the Hsu forum...sure I get that!
Now...I hope this will close this sorted chapter on the VTF15V and Nathan(Funkywaves) can have the podium...

Thanks, proud owner of one of his subs...

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post #648 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:36 AM
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I think one thing we can all agree on: I don't think you will be seeing an HSU advertising sticky over at AH anytime soon.
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post #649 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DrewB View Post

I think one thing we can all agree on: I don't think you will be seeing an HSU advertising sticky over at AH anytime soon.

Axiom too for that matter....

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post #650 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:43 AM
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Thanks, proud owner of one of his subs...

What subwoofer do you have?

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post #651 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:45 AM
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What subwoofer do you have?

You can find it in my sig over at Audiohloics...but basically the FW12 but I'm using a AE12X with a slight alteration....more efficient driver that better suited my needs.

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post #652 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

I hope it would rank high, especially considering one can get two VTF-15H for a base cost of less than $1800! Multiple subwoofers is a wonderful thing when one can accomodate two (or more) units.

I think the original AH review implied this as well...
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post #653 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:57 AM
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I am sure my thinking is outside the mainstream, but I theoretically want a sub that is reasonably flat at least to 20 Hz, and will reach the SPL levels I need while maintiaining its relatively flat performance, and without unacceptable distortion. To me, the retest with one port plugged and Q at 7 has 20 Hz down maybe 2 dB, which ain't bad. Max output is somewhere between 109 and 111 dB at 20 Hz.

For me, that makes this a 109 to 111 dB sub. While the reviewer is looking at it from a designer standpoint and thinking about how much more performance, from a clean SPL point of view, is available above about 40 Hz, those increased SPL are meaningless to me if I don't use them.

It's not certain, but my guess is that the top curve in the sweeps is at max clean output, somewhere in the 120 to 124 dB range at higher frequencies. Eyeballing it, then, it looks like the sub's overall frequency response stays about the same (ie 20 Hz down only 2 dB) all the way to 109 or 111 dB.

So it's a 109 or 111 dB sub, flat within reason down to 20 Hz when properly configured. Frankly, that meets (actually probably exceeds) my needs. Which is why I saw the original review as positive, and see the follow up as positive from my perspective. The sub has all I think I'll ever need from a single sub.

Just to put a bizarre thought out there, if Hsu had implemented a limiter that kept the sub from exceeding say 115 dB at any frequency, the plots would all look prettier, and there would not be the discrepance between the curve at about 111 or 113 dB and higher SPLs. Would everybody be happier then? If so, ask yourself exactly how you lose anything by allowing the sub to reach its full capability at the higher frequencies. It's still exactly the same within its flat pass band and has a ton in reserve at higher frequencies. No problems.

Comparing its output to the Audioholics test of the VTF3 Mk3, the VTF15 has a ton more output while remaining reasonably flat. Looks like the VTF 3 digs deeper, but at levels that are down 10 or 15 dB. So to me the VTF15 wins versus the 3, which is itself obviously a fine sub.

If I'm nuts, I'd be happy to hear why. I don't blame the reviewer for the tone, I don't blame Hsu for coming to the defense of their product. It's a dynamite sub for probably most folks in most rooms.
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post #654 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

So, outside of runnin any other Hsu fanboys coming out of their bunkers yet? Oh wait ...looks like some are peering their head over at the Hsu forum...sure I get that!
Now...I hope this will close this sorted chapter on the VTF15V and Nathan(Funkywaves) can have the podium...

Thanks, proud owner of one of his subs...

It is funny how all day long it was the HSU haters or other manufacturer owners that came here and were still kissing AH ass and also were so happy about that AH re re re review! ........just to still put oil on the fire as i mentioned here before??...(but i know i am always wrong!)... tell me its not true?..lol....why are all vtf-15h owners proud and happy!...since your emailing me on AH and here all you wanted to make me do is to get rid of any other manufacturer and get a Funky waves?!...am i right?.......btw i am not beeing arrogant just straight honest about what is going on!...oh and yes you SHOULD ALL go see on the HSU forum what i wrote....but once again i will be wrong....you all have a good day i hope?...lmao.
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post #655 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DrewB View Post

I think one thing we can all agree on: I don't think you will be seeing an HSU advertising sticky over at AH anytime soon.

You didnt asked your self for a second why they were not advirtising before?...like lots of other manufacturers?...maybe you should have asked your self this question first....you would have answered your self....
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post #656 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:06 PM
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It is funny how all day long it was the HSU haters or other manufacturer owners that came here and were still kissing AH ass and also were so happy about that AH re re re review! ........just to still put oil on the fire as i mentioned here before??...(but i know i am always wrong!)... tell me its not true?..lol....why are all vtf-15h owners proud and happy!...since your emailing me on AH and here all you wanted to make me do is to get rid of any other manufacturer and get a Funky waves?!...am i right?.......btw i am not beeing arrogant just straight honest about what is going on!...oh and yes you SHOULD ALL go see on the HSU forum what i wrote....but once again i will be wrong....you all have a good day i hope?...lmao.

Clouso, I was the first one who spoke out over @ AH telling you were nuts to return the sub without auditioning in home.... I'm just tired of Hsu being in the spotlight and whining about the net results of Pauls finding. If they truely believe in THIEIR product send it over to Ricci...I believe Pete is aware of their work and have him retest it ...just saying...

Hum...I just checked and it would appear some of your posts have being deleted..I wonder why?

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post #657 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:10 PM
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You didnt asked your self for a second why they were not advirtising before?...like lots of other manufacturers?...maybe you should have asked your self this question first....you would have answered your self....

So I guess it's better to bend the truth so that Audioholics can get more advertising?

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post #658 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:11 PM
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So here is a question for the VTF-15 owners: given the new numbers, does it mean that my old VTF3-HO w/turbo can kick its arse?
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post #659 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:14 PM
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no, but I wouldn't trade up for it.
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post #660 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Clouso I was the first one who spoke out over @ AH telling you were nuts to return the sub without audioning frist in home.... I'm just tired of Hsu being in the spotlight and whining about the net results of Pauls finding. If they truely believe in THIER product send it over to Ricci...I believe Pete is now aware of their work and have him test it ...just saying...

yeah for for the xxxxx times it was fool from me saying this and for the xxxxx times i dont regret having it now ...but i have a question for you my friend Billy....do you think Paul is the absolut in testing?...Brent Butterworth sounds like an idiot right now or what?...does that guy have a 21 years experience?....anyway i will never get my point beeing understand here...lol..but i am having fun..even if some think i am an idiot....
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