Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:23 PM
 
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As a long time reader of both S&V and Stereo Review(upon which I based my first receiver purchase, a Luxman R115) if you think about it mike, they were discerning in which products they reviewed. They didn't review crap, and their numbers on testing always seemed pretty extensive to me.

I again ask my question, why would AH repeatedly edit their original review and then post a re-review if the first review was fine as is? Anyone? Anyone?
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post #722 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

to quote Brent Butterworth

"In terms of sheer output, it's the most capable subwoofer I've tested"

what other subwoofers have you tested Brent?

I don't know about subs as I didn't take a good look at it but here are his reviews at S+V..http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/sea...%20Butterworth
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post #723 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:40 PM
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Brent,

How will you describe the sound of the VTF-15 vs SVS PB-12 Plus you reviewed?

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #724 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:42 PM
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@dlfromcanada: I've reviewed way too many subs to list - probably more than 200 - but of recent note is the 6-sub shootout I did in S+V, which included top-of-the-line 12-inch models from SVS, PSB, Axiom, JL Audio, Bag End, and Velodyne. Smaller drivers than the VTF-15H, obviously, but more powerful amps and all of them much more expensive.

@mojomike: Good question. S+V basically doesn't review deeply flawed products in the first place, in large part because the editors seldom want to cover inexpensive stuff. Likewise, S+V doesn't review a whole lot of high-end products that might be lousy values. Although I said the sub in the Waterfall Audio system I reviewed a while back was a poor value and nobody weakened that statement. S+V is also the only place I've ever worked where I was never pressured to cover advertisers.
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post #725 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:44 PM
 
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Someone asked what the edits were, and I've rounded up what I could find from the AH thread on the original review below. I just noticed that they edited something again today, don't know what was edited. There may be more, but this is what I could find plus the edit that was done today.

1) In the "Con" list at the start of the original review, the phrase, "Little sub 25Hz output" was removed

2)It's explained that more was added in post #37 of the thread:

Quote:


I did add the following statement in point of favor for the product:
Considering the relatively low cost of the product, one could opt for purchasing two VTF-15H's if more output is desired. We are champions of multiple subwoofers for better and smoother bass distribution across the entire listening area. Just make sure your spouse can handle two of these behemoths sitting in your living room.

3) In post #40 it's explained that more was added:

Quote:


I added the following statement for clarity
Like with all subs used in a home theater environment, we highly recommend utilizing the internal bass management and level control of your A/V processor and either bypassing the sub's internal filters or using them in conjunction (if needed) to ensure the best integration with your speaker system.

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post #726 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post


I again ask my question, why would AH repeatedly edit their original review and then post a re-review if the first review was fine as is? Anyone? Anyone?

To satisfy owners of the VTF15H and make them feel better by sugar-coating what was said in the original review.
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post #727 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:47 PM
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@cacimar: I haven't had that SVS PB-12 for a long time and acoustic memory isn't reliable over 20 minutes, much less ~18 months. However, based on my best recollection, I might find the PB-12 a little more enjoyable for music. In terms of LF extension and output, I can't reliably say. With products that are so similar, it's very dicey to make these kinds of statements unless you have an opportunity to compare them directly.
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post #728 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aznrock2000 View Post

To satisfy owners of the VTF15H and make them feel better by sugar-coating what was said in the original review.

Wrong. It was already asked and answered. AH does not cater or sugar coat anything. Neither of the VTF-15H reviews were sugar-coated. Anyone else?
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post #729 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentbutterworth View Post

@cacimar: I haven't had that SVS PB-12 for a long time and acoustic memory isn't reliable over 20 minutes, much less ~18 months. However, based on my best recollection, I might find the PB-12 a little more enjoyable for music. In terms of LF extension and output, I can't reliably say. With products that are so similar, it's very dicey to make these kinds of statements unless you have an opportunity to compare them directly.


Yep. Point taken.

Thanks for commenting and congrats on the sub article!

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #730 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentbutterworth View Post

@mojomike: Good question. S+V basically doesn't review deeply flawed products in the first place, in large part because the editors seldom want to cover inexpensive stuff. Likewise, S+V doesn't review a whole lot of high-end products that might be lousy values. Although I said the sub in the Waterfall Audio system I reviewed a while back was a poor value and nobody weakened that statement. S+V is also the only place I've ever worked where I was never pressured to cover advertisers.

Brent, thanks for your answer.
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post #731 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:52 PM
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BTW, regarding Audioholics editing their review, let me say that when you have to get a certain amount of copy out in a certain amount of time, you will make statements that you later realize aren't as clear or accurate as you'd like. I can't get on the Sound + Vision CMS, but if I could, I can promise you that I'd tweak my stuff up after publication.
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post #732 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

I just noticed that they edited something again today, don't know what was edited.

I'd imagine a link or mention to the further testing.

EDIT: Yep.

Quote:


Update: 2/16/11: We ran a complete battery of new measurements and analysis on various port tuning modes and configurations

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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Wrong. It was already asked and answered. AH does not cater or sugar coat anything. Neither of the VTF-15H reviews were sugar-coated. Anyone else?

You know, all this can be put to rest if Pete from HSU can confirm whether the AH measurements are correct. From what I have seen in these threads, AH forwarded a copy of their re-testing to HSU. It wouldn't take much for Pete to look over the measurements and confirm if they are within reason. In either case, if you own the sub and enjoy it, that's all that really matters.
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post #734 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:02 PM
 
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Well dabrick7, can you click over to the AH website? It's not that hard. Look, I found it for you: Right here.
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post #735 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Well dabrick7, can you click over to the AH website? It's not that hard. Look, I found it for you: Right here.

We can go down that road if you like.
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post #736 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentbutterworth View Post

@cacimar: I haven't had that SVS PB-12 for a long time and acoustic memory isn't reliable over 20 minutes, much less ~18 months. However, based on my best recollection, I might find the PB-12 a little more enjoyable for music. In terms of LF extension and output, I can't reliably say. With products that are so similar, it's very dicey to make these kinds of statements unless you have an opportunity to compare them directly.

This is why Paul's review has credence because it didn't rely on recollection or memory but real time hands on experience...
Thanks...Bill

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post #737 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aznrock2000 View Post

You know, all this can be put to rest if Pete from HSU can confirm whether the AH measurements are correct. From what I have seen in these threads, AH forwarded a copy of their re-testing to HSU. It wouldn't take much for Pete to look over the measurements and confirm if they are within reason. In either case, if you own the sub and enjoy it, that's all that really matters.

Unfortunately, the disparity between the reported numbers and the measured numbers is too great. We're talking 4-5 dbs throughout the FR from the initial claims. That's a ton and if Hsu can't find them, there's going to be alot of back and forth accusation. My problem with the Hsu position is that both SVS and Rythmik were in agreement with the measurements of their subs. I find it unfathomable that AH would botch the Hsu results...and...per the retest, they didn't. Thus the drama.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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You know what is so silly about this thread and the AH 'shoot-out', there will never be a clear cut winner. To take the 'shoot out' analogy to the days of the old west, there would be one survivor standing...and that would be the winner. All this molly coddling of potential advertisers and the way all the subs are winners in their own right and you can't go wrong with...BS, either tell us which one is the best or don't waste our time.
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post #739 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Unfortunately, the disparity between the reported numbers and the measured numbers is too great. We're talking 4-5 dbs throughout the FR from the initial claims. That's a ton and if Hsu can't find them, there's going to be alot of back and forth accusation. My problem with the Hsu position is that both SVS and Rythmik were in agreement with the measurements of their subs. I find it unfathomable that AH would botch the Hsu results...and...per the retest, they didn't. Thus the drama.

Clearly you're not following all the conspiracy theories, personal vendetta's, etc. etc. Pete will be commenting on the results tonight.

 

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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

This is why Paul's review has credence because it didn't rely on recollection or memory but real time hands on experience...
Thanks...Bill

And this is why you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Brent did review the SVS sub, and was just commenting on his recollections, as he stated.
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post #741 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Unfortunately, the disparity between the reported numbers and the measured numbers is too great. We're talking 4-5 dbs throughout the FR from the initial claims. That's a ton and if Hsu can't find them, there's going to be alot of back and forth accusation. My problem with the Hsu position is that both SVS and Rythmik were in agreement with the measurements of their subs. I find it unfathomable that AH would botch the Hsu results...and...per the retest, they didn't. Thus the drama.

Uh, I thought that the difference was at least in part that Hsu's numbers are with the mic at 1 meter vs 2 for AH?
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post #742 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Uh, I thought that the difference was at least in part that Hsu's numbers are with the mic at 1 meter vs 2 for AH?

Looks like AH took them at 1M...

Hsu Research VTF-15H CEA Test Performance
Frequency Maximum Peak SPL @ 1 Meter
20 Hz 109.9 dB
25 Hz 115.8 dB
32 Hz 119.0 dB
40 Hz 121.7 dB
50 Hz 121.7 dB
63 Hz 121.6 dB

 

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post #743 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

And this is why you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Brent did review the SVS sub, and was just commenting on his recollections, as he stated.

No he looked like he was avoiding the question.... Beside he hasn't heard the new plus with the improved amp...

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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

This is why Paul's review has credence because it didn't rely on recollection or memory but real time hands on experience...
Thanks...Bill

Seriously? Dude, I'm embarrassed for you.
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post #745 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 07:00 PM
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Seriously? Dude, I'm embarrassed for you.

Seriously dude...care to explain yourself...?

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post #746 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by serge71 View Post

Not presumptions...but facts!...

Oh? Show me the facts that you're using to back up these facts.

Quote:


oh and btw you are insulting all the guys that told me a bigger woofer is better then a smaller one?? for lower frequencies??....

Insulting? Absolutely not. I'm sure they explained it very well to you. the only thing I'm saying is that you specifically lack full understanding yet keep arrogantly making claims about other people's agendas and biases.

A bigger woofer in general WILL more easily move air and produce higher output. It requires less excursion to move more air and thus higher output - indeed at lower frequencies as well.

In order to get low frequencies you need drivers which are efficient at low frequencies. See later on in my post.

Quote:


and that you can have a lesser amp but if its well engeneered it will be best?....

That makes no sense. If it's a lesser amp, how can it be best? I have an idea what you're suggesting however and so I will expand upon it later in my post.

Quote:


also why all the guys at AH always told me that the amp was not so important and that paper woofer are beeing utilised in some DIY subwoofers???......

The amp is important. You don`t just ignore the amp. HOWEVER you don`t need 1700w to have a good sub. What the guys at AH were trying to explain to you is that watts aren`t the most important thing - that the overall speaker is what matters. You can pour 2000 watts into a heavy, small driver, or you can pour 350 watts into a light, big driver to get different results.

You apparently believed that because the paradigm had 1700w, it was the best sub. This is wrong.

Now you`re saying that because the HSU gets louder, it has the best amp despite only 350 watts. This is ALSO wrong.

The fact is, the paradigm had a better amp, but also needed a better amp.
The HSU has a mediocre amp, but is very efficient and thus its amp limitations aren`t as much an issue, although the dynamic 1400 watts rating is somewhat questionable to say the least.

And the paper woofer, right down to the audioholics HSU review, was NEVER AN ISSUE. Only you keep bringing it up. The review itself said it`s perfectly fine to save money and use paper because it acts as a piston at bass frequencies!

Quote:


for instance the paradigm sub12 had a 1700 wattss rms and 4700watss peak....is it better then the vtf-15 h i now onw...NO!..........

The amp IS better.
The subwoofer as a WHOLE is NOT.

Quote:


i dont care you think paradidm makes crap what i am telling you is that i now understand that some are cheating in the specs.....

Paradigm makes some great products. The S4s and S8s are very nice speakers. The sub1 and sub2 are very capable subs relative to their form factor, but are also extremely inefficient and overpriced.

Regarding specs, no, paradigm isn`t cheating in the specs, nor is HSU. Some people like yourself just fail to INTERPRET the specs. Paradigm`s approach is this:

Underdamped sealed subs EQed to give flat response. This REQUIRES lots of power.

Quote:


you are still arrassing me...... cause all you do is getting on my nerves cause you think you know better then others but in fact you dont!!...i have known other people with a much more valuable knowledge then you!.....experiencing is important sometimes in life!!...btw how many subs did you own in your poor life life??....and i dont care about those suckers who will take your part...they are just not man enough to say what they think...so they prefer to agree with the mass..............you can still laugh at my spelling its easy for you and i understand...........

The same emotionally charged, unjustified B.S. that you irritate me for. But I`m a nice guy. I`m about to explain to you in depth.

First, i've selected three drivers to represent some different subwoofers you probably know a bit about.

Driver Blue in a vented box - an 18" low fs driver - This represents the SVS PB12U

Driver Yellow - a 12" low fs, high excursion driver in a sealed box - This represents your paradigm Sub12.

Driver Green - an 18" high fs driver in a vented box - This represents the HSU VTF-15 in the comparision. It's an 18 but treat it like a 15. It's actually a much closer comparision to driver A than the HSU is to the SVS. That's because it's made by the same people. Once caveat is that the driver in the VTF-15 does not have the kind of power handling/excursion capability of Driver C.

So now let's look at drivers when you push 300 watts into them:



So what do we see?

-The 18" drivers (Blue and Green) in ported boxes are louder than the 12" driver (yellow) in the sealed box, at any frequency.

-The low fs (Blue) 18" driver is less loud above 30 hz but louder below 30hz or so.

-the high fs (Green) 18" is the opposite - less efficient below 30hz but notably more efficient above 30hz.


So what can we draw from this in terms of extention?

-the 12" driver, at 20hz, is 13db down.
-the low fs 18" at 20hz is 5db down. This is fine performance as room gain will give you that 5db back.
-the high fs 18" at 20hz is around 15db down, but is notable louder than the 12", since being 15db down doesn't mean it's less efficient at that frequency, it just means it's less efficient relative to itself.


You can add more power to EQ out the response flat. So let`s assume we add 9db of boost to the 12" and 18" drivers. The low fs 18" driver will stay the same.

So to add boost:

300 x 2 = 600w for +3db
600 x 2 = 1200w for +6db
1200 x 2 = 2400w for +9db

So to get the yellow driver decently flat at 110db, you need 2400 watts.
And to get the blue driver flat at 114db, you need 300 watts.
And to get the green driver flat at 117db, you need 2400 watts.

Actually, there's an issue. 2400 watts will bottom out the yellow driver. So that's not fair at all. Let's bring it down to its limits.

If you pump 950 watts at 20hz into the yellow driver, you will add enough boost at 20hz to stay below xmax. Now, since you've got flat response, this means frequencies where this driver is more efficient will get less power. So we can declare that this driver is limited to no more output than 102db - at 20hz at least.

So even if you've got more power, the driver can't always take it. But with power you can add boost, especially to sealed subs.

In the case of the paradigm, it could take 1700 watts, but that doesn't mean it was being used to get the speaker loud at higher frequencies. It was being used to add boost at lower frequencies where the speaker is less sensitive.

And since it was a small, low sensitivity driver, it wouldn't get as loud with the same amoung of power.

But that doesn't mean power means nothing, nor does it mean the 300 watt amp is "great". It's just enough. In the case of the HSU, it doesn't need a ton of power to get loud, as you can see above, it's more efficient at some frequencies, but loses efficiency quickly as you drop lower in frequency as evidenced by the audioholics measurements. In fact even 350 watts is enough to bottom out its driver at lower frequencies according to the re-review.

So the point of all this is that you can't look at watts to know if a sub is capable, but you also can't say that an amp is great because the sub around it works fine for your purposes. It's a mediocre plate amp which is well implemented by HSU, as Paul Appolinio's review suggested.
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post #747 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentbutterworth View Post

@cacimar: I haven't had that SVS PB-12 for a long time and acoustic memory isn't reliable over 20 minutes, much less ~18 months. However, based on my best recollection, I might find the PB-12 a little more enjoyable for music. In terms of LF extension and output, I can't reliably say. With products that are so similar, it's very dicey to make these kinds of statements unless you have an opportunity to compare them directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

This is why Paul's review has credence because it didn't rely on recollection or memory but real time hands on experience...
Thanks...Bill


If acoustic memory isn't reliable over 20 minutes then I guess Paul's comparison wouldn't be reliable either since they were tested on different days

Anyway seriously I never thought so much would come out of one review. The VTF-15H is a great sub. It's not gonna be the same as the PB12+ at approx. $500 less just like the PB-12+ isn't gonna be the same as a PB-13U at approx $500 less. All 3 are great subs just pick your price. I went the cheapest route and I'm happy with what I got out of it.. and in a little while hopefully I will be able to pick up a 2nd..

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post #748 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 08:00 PM
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Yawn. Up waiting for Pete's state of the union address.
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post #749 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 08:03 PM
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EV, do you really think someone who can't understand that the phrase 'paper is fine' is not a criticism is going to under a word you said?

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post #750 of 797 Old 02-16-2011, 11:31 PM
 
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Quote:


Originally Posted by Billy p
This is why Paul's review has credence because it didn't rely on recollection or memory but real time hands on experience...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewB View Post

Seriously? Dude, I'm embarrassed for you.

Yeah, uh, I don't think he gets it at all.
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