feel duped, now I need a new sub! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I should have done my research: I went to Best Buy to get a 10" 100w powered subwoofer, and saw the PSW10, which was LISTED at 100 watts. A couple of years later, as I'm upgrading the rest of my system, I notice that the 100 watts rating on the PSW10 is peak only - it's really a 50 watt sub. Now that I have a new Denon AVR 791, with Polk Monitor 60 fronts and a CS2 center, I'm really noticing the deficiencies in the polk sub. So...all ranting at BB aside, I'd like to upgrade the sub, but only to something that will match the rest of my setup and provide more power. I'm looking at a BIC F12 or the v1020/v1220 or something similarly priced. I could maybe go up to $250, but if the aforementioned subs will do the job, then I'll go with those. Thoughts?
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post #2 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 12:45 PM
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In the under $300 range, individuals in this forum like the BIC PL-200 and Lava LSP12. Check the respective threads on how to get the best price.

At around $200, individuals like the BIC F12 and Precision Acoustic PA-120.

You did not give the size of your room. The Polk PSW10 is hopeless in most situations and may not play much lower than your main speakers. I have a PSW10 hooked up to a small satellite system in a very small bedroom. I did not purchase the PSW10.
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post #3 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 12:47 PM
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Yea, just so you know, room size plays an extremely critical role in how much bass you'll be able to hear and feel in a room. It's not like your ordinary speaker. The bigger the room you're in, the more you'll need to spend to get some decent bass.

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post #4 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Right now I'm just looking for something that will be a big step up from the psw10 and won't drown out the polk monitor 60s - you think the F12 would do that?
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post #5 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abramN View Post

Right now I'm just looking for something that will be a big step up from the psw10 and won't drown out the polk monitor 60s - you think the F12 would do that?

The subs you are looking at will be a step in the right direction. However BIG step means more cost. You get what you pay for and these suggestions are solid for what you pay. Subwoofer performance is very room dependent. What are your room dimensions and is it open to other areas?
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post #6 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abramN View Post

Right now I'm just looking for something that will be a big step up from the psw10 and won't drown out the polk monitor 60s - you think the F12 would do that?

That's definitely a step up but is it the best step up for you? As was stated, if you really want the best advice, knowing the entire room size this new sub would be going into will really help in determining where to go from here.

1 Mitsubishi WD-82642 82" TV
1 Onkyo TX-NR929 11.4 setup
2 Emotiva XPA-5's
1 Emotiva XPA-100
1 Definitive Technology CLR 3000 (Center)
2 Definitive Technology BP2004TL's (Mains)
2 Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000's (Heights)
6 Definitive Technology BPX's (Rears Wides Sides)
4 CHT VS-18.1 Subs
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post #7 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The room is probably about 12 x 20 or thereabouts, but it does spill out into a kitchen on one side and looks down onto another room on the other. So there is quite a bit of space there.
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post #8 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 01:48 PM
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That is a very large room. If you really want to fill it with bass it will take a lot of output. I advise saving up for a while longer as buying now and replacing when realize not enough is more expensive. But if you listen at low volume levels and are satisfied, it may be fine.
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post #9 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 02:18 PM
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Ya, I'd definitely save up and get something that will fill the room. There are no 100W sub woofers that will adequately fill that volume of space.

I recently purchased a new sub for a 15 x 25 room, HSU VTF3 MK3, to replace an old 100W sub, and am very happy I did. The difference is night and day.


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post #10 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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hey, thanks for the tips guys...appreciate it.
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post #11 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 03:18 PM
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... if you have the time and no-how, you might be able to find a good DIY option for less.
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post #12 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 03:24 PM
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buy another PSW10 and run the pair .. pick one up on Amazon right now for $97 bucks shipped .. you'll be fine ..

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post #13 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

buy another PSW10 and run the pair .. pick one up on Amazon right now for $97 bucks shipped .. you'll be fine ..

That will only add a few dB to headroom. Seems like a waste of $97.
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post #14 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sage View Post

That will only add a few dB to headroom. Seems like a waste of $97.

To each his own .. with Amazon selling the unit, it's a free and easy return if the OP is not happy with that dual sub scenario and has 30 days to run it .. I'm betting he'll be happy ..

I run 4 of these in a larger room than the OP has, and frankly, they can kick some major ass on film content as well as music .. and yes, I'm pretty discriminating after 40 years in this hobby ..

Of course, my main system Klipsch Cornwalls and Hafler Sunfires .. sorry, that's a different story ..

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post #15 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

To each his own .. with Amazon selling the unit, it's a free and easy return if the OP is not happy with that dual sub scenario and has 30 days to run it .. I'm betting he'll be happy ..

I run 4 of these in a larger room than the OP has, and frankly, they can kick some major ass on film content as well as music .. and yes, I'm pretty discriminating after 40 years in this hobby ..

Of course, my main system Klipsch Cornwalls and Hafler Sunfires .. sorry, that's a different story ..

What year are your Cornwalls? late 50's early 60's?
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post #16 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 05:11 PM
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Since the BIC F12 is currently in stock at Amazon for only $183 with free shipping and with Amazon's great return policy, I'd say give the F12 a shot and see if its the right sub for you. If you don't like it, then simply return it and keep looking for the sub you do like.
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post #17 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 05:30 PM
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I have a Bic pl200 I just got and it is in my 22x14 living room that spills into my kitchen of close size and it seems to do well. I have it hooked up to a denon2310ci and let it auto eq. I think the denon did a good job of eq'ing it, pretty flat sounding. The sub volume is around the 10:30 position so there should be headroom left. I was watching Train your Dragon(highy rated for LFE) and it pounded my chest a few times, pretty satisfying. Not bad for a $260 sub bought off the bay. I think it's about 250 watts rms and 1k peak.
I'm sure there's better but wanted to relate my experience.
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post #18 of 52 Old 01-11-2011, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
To each his own .. with Amazon selling the unit, it's a free and easy return if the OP is not happy with that dual sub scenario and has 30 days to run it .. I'm betting he'll be happy ..
Usually I'd agree, and it's not very much money in any case. My thought however is that the O/P is running out of headroom (badly). Because of this a 2nd sub, co-located, is going to add 6 dB -- but that might not be enough output to keep the sub from running out of headroom.
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post #19 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 02:43 AM
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According to individuals in the PL-200 forum, the PL-200 is a step up from the F12. You need to check the PL-200 forum on how to get the best price.
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post #20 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post
What year are your Cornwalls? late 50's early 60's?
bought new in 1970 .. still fully original, still kicks some butt .. of course, you've got to like that type sound ..

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post #21 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 08:03 AM
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bought new in 1970 .. still fully original, still kicks some butt .. of course, you've got to like that type sound ..
I bet they do, they were serious back then too.
I'm not a horn fan but I can appreciate them just the same.

His cu ft is rather large. I still would go for a sub that goes deeper than 35hz. Something in the range of 20hz for HT.
There a number of inexpensive subs that would fit better, even if he only went down to 25hz.
I don't believe that sub (even in pairs) is going to be what he's looking for.
IMHO, it's just a waste of a hundred dollars. It's better to save a few more dollars and get a better sub. The BIC would be a step up and he would likely need to place it nearfield.
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post #22 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 10:04 AM
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I would say you feel duped, you need a real sub.. four midbass units do not equal a real sub capable of respectable output under 20 hz.

I am no longer able to watch a movie. I am monitoring a video display with regards to chroma, brightness, contrast and correct pulldown.
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post #23 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 10:33 AM
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respectable output under 20Hz for $250 or less .. ?? name some ..

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post #24 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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well, I pulled the trigger and got the F12 from meijer for $175 shipped. The way I see it, it's a step up from the PSW10, and I can return it if it doesn't work for me. Regardless, this HT upgrade has been a lot of fun in and of itself, especially with just trying to find the best deals on speakers and a receiver. The new system is already amazing, just trying to get a little more oomph.

Current setup:
Denon AVR 791
Polk Monitor 60s fronts
Polk CS2 center
sub: Polk PSW10 -> BIC F12
rears: some Sony speakers that came with a crappy center - I'll upgrade someday but they sound ok right now

coming from a Sony receiver that predated Dolby Digital, 15-year old Yamaha loudspeakers and the aforementioned crappy sony center that barely emitted any sound, this new system is light years ahead - which is what I was going for.

Now, if the F12 doesn't do it for me, what are my options: get another F12? Or is there a next step up from the F12 that won't cost an arm and a leg?

Once again, thanks for all the advice; t'is much appreciated.
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post #25 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abramN View Post

well, I pulled the trigger and got the F12 from meijer for $175 shipped. The way I see it, it's a step up from the PSW10, and I can return it if it doesn't work for me. Regardless, this HT upgrade has been a lot of fun in and of itself, especially with just trying to find the best deals on speakers and a receiver. The new system is already amazing, just trying to get a little more oomph.

Current setup:
Denon AVR 791
Polk Monitor 60s fronts
Polk CS2 center
sub: Polk PSW10 -> BIC F12
rears: some Sony speakers that came with a crappy center - I'll upgrade someday but they sound ok right now

coming from a Sony receiver that predated Dolby Digital, 15-year old Yamaha loudspeakers and the aforementioned crappy sony center that barely emitted any sound, this new system is light years ahead - which is what I was going for.

Now, if the F12 doesn't do it for me, what are my options: get another F12? Or is there a next step up from the F12 that won't cost an arm and a leg?

Once again, thanks for all the advice; t'is much appreciated.

Up from that i would look at the Lava SP12. Up from that you're in the range of what i consider "real subs", in so much as they will extend to 20hz or close enough to 20hz that it wont matter, and do it with some authority.

Subs like that are going to run in the 375-550 ish range. Then you start getting into the whole sealed vs ported, size, etc etc.

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post #26 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abramN View Post

well, I pulled the trigger and got the F12 from meijer for $175 shipped. The way I see it, it's a step up from the PSW10, and I can return it if it doesn't work for me. Regardless, this HT upgrade has been a lot of fun in and of itself, especially with just trying to find the best deals on speakers and a receiver. The new system is already amazing, just trying to get a little more oomph.

Current setup:
Denon AVR 791
Polk Monitor 60s fronts
Polk CS2 center
sub: Polk PSW10 -> BIC F12
rears: some Sony speakers that came with a crappy center - I'll upgrade someday but they sound ok right now

coming from a Sony receiver that predated Dolby Digital, 15-year old Yamaha loudspeakers and the aforementioned crappy sony center that barely emitted any sound, this new system is light years ahead - which is what I was going for.

Now, if the F12 doesn't do it for me, what are my options: get another F12? Or is there a next step up from the F12 that won't cost an arm and a leg?

Once again, thanks for all the advice; t'is much appreciated.

Let us know how it works out!
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post #27 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwinkler View Post

According to individuals in the PL-200 forum, the PL-200 is a step up from the F12. You need to check the PL-200 forum on how to get the best price.

Bic F12 < Bic H100 < Bic PL200


That's the order of the line
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post #28 of 52 Old 01-12-2011, 11:59 PM
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If it doesn't work out go used. A used PW-2200 or a used velodyne 12".
$2-300 will get you a lot in the used market. Even a used one of the subs mentioned from people upgrading.

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price subsides"
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post #29 of 52 Old 01-13-2011, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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cool - thanks Unobtainium (nice name btw). What I'm confused about is the frequency response - the lower the better, right? The BIC F12 shows 25 hz at the low end (Amazon), while the Velodyne shows 29. (from http://www.htmarket.com/vel80st12bv.html) The Paradigm shows a "low frequency extension" of 18 hz (from the Paradigm website) - is that basically the same thing? So, from numbers alone, it would appear that the BIC has a lower frequency response than the Velodyne, but maybe BIC is exaggerating, or putting up more "theoretical" numbers?
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post #30 of 52 Old 01-14-2011, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I currently have a rocketfish hooked up to the last 2 channels on my 791, but no speakers - could I hook that up to the F12 so I could try out more locations for the sub? Or would it be better to just use the sub input and keep it wired?
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