How the SVS PB13-Ultra compares to HSU VTF-15H - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #61 of 87 Old 08-28-2012, 05:33 PM
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pbc...
I don't think anyone really disagrees with your notion below?!

Is the PB13 a better subwoofer than the VTF-15H, IMO, yes. Is it worth twice the cost of the HSU? IMO, no. Most would likely benefit from the FR smoothing that dual subwoofers would provide in-room.

What is curious though is that you have multiple people here -- and other's I've met (who are tinkerers and have some a/b experience with several subs) saying that they couldn't really get the SVS to sound the way they wanted for music. How do you quantify that in measurements?

You say the sound of the SVS is totally dependant on room and competence of the person setting it up. I had avsforum memeber counsil, luke kamp, carp, and kcnitro07, as well as several other non avsforum friends come over to play with the SVS subs. We moved them around, we played different stuff - we messed with crossover points. I had them for two months.

Subjective it is - but I wouldn't buy another pair of SVS PB13 Ultra subs because I wasn't impressed with them during music listening.


Steve1981,
Subwoofers aren't as sensitive to a couple inches of placement in frequency response. Often frequencies below 50hz won't change much at all with several feet of movement in a big room as verified lots of times in lots of room with my omnimic real time analyzer. Frequencies above 50hz do change a lot with several feet, but still not much with a couple inches.

As to your point about the SVS being the more technically accurate subs -- that may be true. It has been noted in a few threads I've read over the years around here that some people actually prefer distortion sound in their subwoofer. Heck - what large venue PA system doesn't have distortion built into the audio. I'd be willing to admit I probably like some distortion in my audio. I loved the Yamaha CW218V for music (much more than the SVS PB13 Ultras I had at the same time) and it was a big double 18" PA Sub tuned to 35hz. Don't tell me that didn't have some measurable distortion levels. tongue.gif

That said I most loved my jamo d7 subs for music and they were servo controlled 15"s with low distortion and a flat frquency response so.......

The characteristic I didn't like about the svs is yet undetermined.

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post #62 of 87 Old 08-28-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

pbc...
I don't think anyone really disagrees with your notion below?!
Is the PB13 a better subwoofer than the VTF-15H, IMO, yes. Is it worth twice the cost of the HSU? IMO, no. Most would likely benefit from the FR smoothing that dual subwoofers would provide in-room.
What is curious though is that you have multiple people here -- and other's I've met (who are tinkerers and have some a/b experience with several subs) saying that they couldn't really get the SVS to sound the way they wanted for music. How do you quantify that in measurements?
You say the sound of the SVS is totally dependant on room and competence of the person setting it up. I had avsforum memeber counsil, luke kamp, carp, and kcnitro07, as well as several other non avsforum friends come over to play with the SVS subs. We moved them around, we played different stuff - we messed with crossover points. I had them for two months.
Subjective it is - but I wouldn't buy another pair of SVS PB13 Ultra subs because I wasn't impressed with them during music listening.
Steve1981,
Subwoofers aren't as sensitive to a couple inches of placement in frequency response. Often frequencies below 50hz won't change much at all with several feet of movement in a big room as verified lots of times in lots of room with my omnimic real time analyzer. Frequencies above 50hz do change a lot with several feet, but still not much with a couple inches.
As to your point about the SVS being the more technically accurate subs -- that may be true. It has been noted in a few threads I've read over the years around here that some people actually prefer distortion sound in their subwoofer. Heck - what large venue PA system doesn't have distortion built into the audio. I'd be willing to admit I probably like some distortion in my audio. I loved the Yamaha CW218V for music (much more than the SVS PB13 Ultras I had at the same time) and it was a big double 18" PA Sub tuned to 35hz. Don't tell me that didn't have some measurable distortion levels. tongue.gif
That said I most loved my jamo d7 subs for music and they were servo controlled 15"s with low distortion and a flat frquency response so.......
The characteristic I didn't like about the svs is yet undetermined.

I'd "guess" that the subs weren't blended properly with the mains, maybe a big dip at the crossover. Or maybe there was a null right in a region that was critical for whatever material was playing. Or maybe a rising response down low causing some music to sound boomy. Without seeing some room measurements it is all a cr*pshoot of course.

To flip the question, what would it be that causes the Vtf to be "better" for music if the PB13 has more headroom, more spl, more tweakbility, very low GD, flatter response, etc? The one thing I could thing of is that IIRC the VTF was flatter well past the point where the PB13 dropped off so might blend better with setups that had higher crossovers?

You mention above you prefer some distortion in your audio. Who knows, maybe that is a clue as to why the PB13 didn't seem to go well with you or in your room. Or maybe they didn't have the headroom you needed in your room at the levels you listen to?

I can't recall btw, was the PB13 one of the subs in your blind test some time ago?

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #63 of 87 Old 08-28-2012, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I've setup the Velo DPS-10 in my father-in-law's family room (got it cheap). IIt had some interesting "EQ" modes, like Jazz and a few others which simply boosted the response up in the 40-60hz region by a few dB. This would impact music quite a bit and give you more of a "chest" slam, and likely what you were experiencing vs the PB10NSD which was flat to a pretty low frequency for a ported sub (I've setup that one too in a friends room, FWIW).

I'd long since learned to switch the DSP mode to Jazz, which is the setting with the lowest HP and zero boost. So any comparison to the SVS was with that setting.
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post #64 of 87 Old 08-28-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

I'd long since learned to switch the DSP mode to Jazz, which is the setting with the lowest HP and zero boost. So any comparison to the SVS was with that setting.

Couldn't recall if Movie or Jazz was the flatter one. Admittedly, I hated that interface that the sub had. Trying to figure out where the gain was by how fast the light was blinking or something along those lines drove me nuts! Can't recall if the 12 had the same interface or not.

Will throw something out there. The DSP, for instance, rolled off like crazy around 30-35hz or so (the 10" version rolled off heavily at around 40hz). Another "theory" could be that because the sub offered nothing much below 30hz, listening sessions "emphasized" the punchier 35Hz plus bass in music. Your PB10NSD possibly sounded "muddier" because it was playing bass well below that which starts to have a higher group delay (maybe you're sensitive to it, who knows), etc. All just guesses of course without at least a frequency response graph.

Personally I wasn't a huge fan of the PB10NSD in my friend's basement. Seemed boomy, not sure if it was because he didn't have an Audyssey equipped receiver, or any EQ FTM. I didn't have measuring equipment at the time he bought it (years ago) outside of an SPL meter and wasn't into graphing his FR. All I really did was setup the subwoofer using his receiver\s test tones and an Avia disc way back then!

 

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post #65 of 87 Old 08-28-2012, 07:53 PM
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Had you asked about the FR 6 months ago I would have had no answer for you. Since then I'd done a TON of measuring and tweaking as I've gone the DIY route. But yes, the 12 has the same interface and the gain is a PITA but not that bad once you know what the blinking lights mean. I my room, it played down to ~27 Hz, so it really wasn't that bad. Using Audyssey, the FR was pretty flat to that point, so it wasn't an issue with overemphasized upper bass.

Fact is, I'm currently using the PB10 with a sealed AV15. (It took forever to get them to play nice, btw). The AV15 playing by itself sounds better for music, IMO I love the depth I get when both are playing together (flat to ~14) but the SVS doesn't impress all that much for music. But that's just me.
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post #66 of 87 Old 08-29-2012, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Had you asked about the FR 6 months ago I would have had no answer for you. Since then I'd done a TON of measuring and tweaking as I've gone the DIY route. But yes, the 12 has the same interface and the gain is a PITA but not that bad once you know what the blinking lights mean. I my room, it played down to ~27 Hz, so it really wasn't that bad. Using Audyssey, the FR was pretty flat to that point, so it wasn't an issue with overemphasized upper bass.
Fact is, I'm currently using the PB10 with a sealed AV15. (It took forever to get them to play nice, btw). The AV15 playing by itself sounds better for music, IMO I love the depth I get when both are playing together (flat to ~14) but the SVS doesn't impress all that much for music. But that's just me.

You're mentioning of the AV15H brings up an interesting point. How much impact on SQ does cone material have? I use the AV15H's myself, and recall when I was at Sputter's place listening to his VTF-15Hs and then listening to BillyP's Funky 12.0 (which used an AV12H), I recall thinking I really liked the "sound" of the AV12H. How much of that was simply "bias" because I used AV15Hs, versus true ability to denote a sonic signature? No idea, as we didn't listen to them blind. Maybe people don't like the "sound" the cone material of the PB13 gives off?

The second thing that came to mind is that you never updated your post in the DIY forum with pics of the AV15H build! Unless you started a new thread and I missed it? smile.gif

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #67 of 87 Old 08-29-2012, 08:15 AM
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You're right, I never did update that thread. I will do that soon, along with current FR graphs. That build is still in flux, actually. Right now it's the AV with the BASH500 paired with the PB10. I hope to soon replace the PB10 with a custom 18" Stereo Integrity Mag and power each with one channel of an EP4000. Should be fun.
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post #68 of 87 Old 08-29-2012, 11:54 AM
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I was avoiding this thread as it can get heated when two camps get involved lol.
A couple people have chimed in that I wouldn't/don't pay any attention to.

I agree with Pbc comments. I would add though it also depends on your listening levels. I own dual 15Hs that have handled anything i've listened to with no complaints.(I don't listen to reference lvls in my setup but i'm not a slacker either) :P
However, with the new sledge amp I believe the 13U would take more and has higher limits as you head to reference. For me, personally in my room I would only buy the 13U/sledge if I wanted those limits. LOL I get enough body and couch tremors from my setup.

Some chowder heads here really need to listen to more subs to get a taste for what they really want, rather than spouting nonsense.

P.S. My room is 4500^ with what I would say as "having decent gain"

Your mileage may vary.
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post #69 of 87 Old 08-30-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I was avoiding this thread as it can get heated when two camps get involved lol.
A couple people have chimed in that I wouldn't/don't pay any attention to.
I agree with Pbc comments. I would add though it also depends on your listening levels. I own dual 15Hs that have handled anything i've listened to with no complaints.(I don't listen to reference lvls in my setup but i'm not a slacker either) :P
However, with the new sledge amp I believe the 13U would take more and has higher limits as you head to reference. For me, personally in my room I would only buy the 13U/sledge if I wanted those limits. LOL I get enough body and couch tremors from my setup.
Some chowder heads here really need to listen to more subs to get a taste for what they really want, rather than spouting nonsense.
P.S. My room is 4500^ with what I would say as "having decent gain"
Your mileage may vary.

You're room had some sick gain below 25hz if I recall, in particular in that front left corner! cool.gif

 

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post #70 of 87 Old 08-31-2012, 03:07 PM
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Hey PBC, I'm looking forward to reading your review/thoughts on the SB13 ultra. Have you compare its SQ or sonic signature vs the pb13u or av15s? I would totally understand if you decline to comment at this paricular time but would expect some kind of compo in your final anylsis or pending review?
Good luck BTW....Bill wink.gifsmile.gif

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post #71 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:13 AM
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Sworn to secrecy at the moment. tongue.gif But I won't be comparing it to the AV15H. If the AV15H's were still readily available, I may have.

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #72 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 09:44 AM
 
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Sworn to secrecy at the moment. tongue.gif But I won't be comparing it to the AV15H. If the AV15H's were still readily available, I may have.

Why is it so secret when its the same subs the SB13 plus, haven't you already gave commentary on it.
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post #73 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 09:56 AM
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This could shed some light... as to why he can't comment at the moment. I'm looking forward to all the reviews which should commence next week....smile.gif




http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/897817-post28.html

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post #74 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 10:10 AM
 
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This could shed some light... as to why he can't comment at the moment. I'm looking forward to all the reviews which should commence next week....smile.gif

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/897817-post28.html

I understand, however I still think this is a red herring or some kind or publicity stunt. The SB13 plus has been out for awhile, it has been reviewed and commented on already. Go to the SVS Sealed Sub thread.
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post #75 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 10:42 AM
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I understand, however I still think this is a red herring or some kind or publicity stunt. The SB13 plus has been out for awhile, it has been reviewed and commented on already. Go to the SVS Sealed Sub thread.

Be the First to Audition the New SVS SB13-Ultra Series Sealed Box Subwoofer!
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post #76 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 11:47 AM
 
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Be the First to Audition the New SVS SB13-Ultra Series Sealed Box Subwoofer!

That must be some kind of mind control!!

SMH
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post #77 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 12:18 PM
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That must be some kind of mind control!!
SMH

Ummm, what? You said it's a red herring because there are already reviews for the SB13 plus. But the upcoming reviews are for a new Ultra, not Plus. See the difference there? Not only are they spelled differently, I think the two words have separate meanings, as well. I'd venture to say that the products are different also, but that's just a wild stab in the dark.

SMHH(arder)
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post #78 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 12:27 PM
 
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Ummm, what? You said it's a red herring because there are already reviews for the SB13 plus. But the upcoming reviews are for a new Ultra, not Plus. See the difference there? Not only are they spelled differently, I think the two words have separate meanings, as well. I'd venture to say that the products are different also, but that's just a wild stab in the dark.
SMHH(arder)

No, I don't. If you were to change the color of your Lexus from white to green, its still the same Lexus, its just a green Lexus. Quite honestly I see this classic mind control.
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post #79 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 01:01 PM
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Lmao. You know the only sure-fire way to guard against mind control? Tin foil hats. As I'm currently using mine for cooking, why don't you try it and let us know how it works out.
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post #80 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 05:49 PM
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Why is it so secret when its the same subs the SB13 plus, haven't you already gave commentary on it.

I've never heard the SB13 ... the "secret" part was a joke. Any comments I have made in the past on the subwoofer were based on original discussions with SVS some 2 or 3 years ago when the subs were originally announced and still being prototyped, as I was looking at sealed subs at the time for my next purchase. But it is an AH contest and the reviews and comments are to be posted there, not anywhere else. To be candid, I'm not sure why SVS called it a "Plus" in the first place, given it used a version of the Ultra driver.

 

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post #81 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 08:01 PM
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So to do a recap on this thread we have 2 people that have actually owned both that prefer the 15h and everyone else that says the 13u is inconceivably better because it measures better. Am I correct?
I don't mean to be so short and blunt, but it's been a long day and well it is what it is?

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post #82 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 09:41 PM
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So to do a recap on this thread we have 2 people that have actually owned both that prefer the 15h and everyone else that says the 13u is inconceivably better because it measures better. Am I correct?
I don't mean to be so short and blunt, but it's been a long day and well it is what it is?

I think the people who have heard both said they prefer it for music, but the SVS for HT. Could be wrong, tho.
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post #83 of 87 Old 09-02-2012, 06:49 AM
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So to do a recap on this thread we have 2 people that have actually owned both that prefer the 15h and everyone else that says the 13u is inconceivably better because it measures better. Am I correct?
I don't mean to be so short and blunt, but it's been a long day and well it is what it is?
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So to do a recap on this thread we have 2 people that have actually owned both that prefer the 15h and everyone else that says the 13u is inconceivably better because it measures better. Am I correct?
I don't mean to be so short and blunt, but it's been a long day and well it is what it is?

For me the more balanced 50/50 sub is the Hsu VTF-15. The SVS for me was not so much better but strictly an HT sub. The SVS can fill a BIG room..but my theater is around 12 x 21 x 9 so the added headroom that the SVS had was a total non factor. Because of room gain the HSU could still dig deep enough to satisfy the HT bass head in me even though the SVS could dig deeper. The REAL tipping point for me was for music, the Hsu just plays music much better...i'm guesssing that the Hsu subs blend better with my speakers and you can hear much better midbass lines from bass guitars and drums. Hope this clears up a few things. biggrin.gif The Hsu subs seem more "alive" to the point that you would swear that there was a gremlin inside the box banging around with a hammer creating different beautiful tones. There is a video on youtube called "super bass test" posted by alanstreetracer...on the test there are tones that make you feel like the bass is rocking you back and forth just like a giant swing in the room..your body feels like the bass is going away and coming back to you..the HSU played this test with better tone on the bass lines going up and down the scale...give your sub a try! biggrin.gif

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post #84 of 87 Old 09-02-2012, 07:21 AM
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Just wondering if this bias towards HSU for music is only with the 2 subs mentioned here or it is true for the low end subs also. For example would a low end HSU sub like VTF-2 MK4 be better for music than the SVS SB12-NSD? If the difference is only marginal, I would go with the Sb12 as it is 35 lb vs 64 for the VTF-2. May be I will start a thread as this thread is basically beyond my league :-)
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post #85 of 87 Old 09-02-2012, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Just wondering if this bias towards HSU for music is only with the 2 subs mentioned here or it is true for the low end subs also. For example would a low end HSU sub like VTF-2 MK4 be better for music than the SVS SB12-NSD? If the difference is only marginal, I would go with the Sb12 as it is 35 lb vs 64 for the VTF-2. May be I will start a thread as this thread is basically beyond my league :-)

I ranked four subs including a mk 2.3 about a page or two back.

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post #86 of 87 Old 09-03-2012, 12:43 PM
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When you say mk 2.3, you mean VTF2 MK3?
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post #87 of 87 Old 09-03-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

When you say mk 2.3, you mean VTF2 MK3?

Yup

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