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post #1 of 210 Old 01-28-2011, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The receiver I got (Pioneer VSX-1120-K) is THX certified, and I read there is an extra special THX plug that the receiver can take that makes it better (B.S?) and is there any THX quality Subs?
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post #2 of 210 Old 01-28-2011, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikewarrior View Post

The receiver I got (Pioneer VSX-1120-K) is THX certified, and I read there is an extra special THX plug that the receiver can take that makes it better (B.S?) and is there any THX quality Subs?

Just buy a sub based on budget and size and forget all the other BS.
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post #3 of 210 Old 01-28-2011, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crabra View Post

Just buy a sub based on budget and size and forget all the other BS.

Will do, I was just interested if it did anything.

Thanks for the reply.
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post #4 of 210 Old 01-28-2011, 07:42 PM
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THX is something that brands pay to have their equipment listed as to make it look better. There is some criteria that needs to be met to be THX certified... one is it being able to play at reference levels. Don't put any weight into buying THX certified equipment. There are plenty of brands out there that are capable of being THX certified if they wanted to pay for the label. Don't buy the plug, it's snake oil.
HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs, and Rythmik are all outstanding internet direct subwoofers. i don't think any of them are THX certified.

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post #5 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 06:36 AM
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Your receiver is THX Select 2 certified. That means several things:

1. When used with THX Select certified speakers and sub(s), the system will output Reference Level in rooms of 2,000 cubic feet or less and 10 - 12 ft. viewing/listening distances.

2. The receiver has the required crossover and LPF/HPF slopes to be used with THX certified speakers and subs.

3. The receiver has all the required THX processing modes: Re-EQ, timbre-matching, boundry gain compensation, adaptive decorrelation, adaptive speaker array, all the THX listening modes and THX Loudness Plus.

You can use any or all of these features with any speakers and subwoofers you like. Or, you can opt to not use any of these features. However, if you want to use these things and get the effect THX intended, you would need THX certified speakers and sub(s). The THX website allows you to search for THX certified products, including subwoofers:
http://www.thx.com/inside/subwoofer/

There is no such thing as a "special THX plug." Your receiver has a standard RCA plug for the subwoofer output.

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post #6 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

However, if you want to use these things and get the effect THX intended, you would need THX certified speakers and sub(s). :
http://www.thx.com/inside/subwoofer/

Craig


i'm not so sure I'm drinking the kool-aid...any capable speaker should work. THX is a label they pay for. Now if it was a standard test that all products had to go through then it would be a different story.

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post #7 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 09:56 AM
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It has to meet certain requirements. I think for subs, it has to go down to 20Hz and so on.
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post #8 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 09:59 AM
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"THX Certified Subwoofers must extend to 20Hz (-6dB) to handle the very highest bass levels with ease."

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-ent...fied-speakers/
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post #9 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 10:07 AM
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It's still a bunch of BS. Manufacturers pay a premium to stick that label on a piece of equipment and then pass that cost on to the consumer. As long a you know what THX specs are, then you can determine whether an item meets the THX standard regardless of it having a little plaque that says THX.

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post #10 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post
i'm not so sure I'm drinking the kool-aid...any capable speaker should work. THX is a label they pay for. Now if it was a standard test that all products had to go through then it would be a different story.
Really? You think THX just takes money from manufacturers and doesn't require any performance criteria?

And you know this how?

No one is asking you to believe anything, as you don't have a THX receiver so you would have no interest in finding out what kind of performance THX gear is capable of.

Read what Craig John had to say about THX in his post in this thread. Those are facts, not dubious speculation.
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post #11 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post
It's still a bunch of BS. Manufacturers pay a premium to stick that label on a piece of equipment and then pass that cost on to the consumer. As long a you know what THX specs are, then you can determine whether an item meets the THX standard regardless of it having a little plaque that says THX.
There are now THX TVs, do you also think that the THX certification has no advantages other TVs don't have?

You are also completely ignoring the proprietary processing in THX receivers and preamps. What you may think of that processing is your business, but as Craig John pointed out, there are THX modes that simply aren't available on non THX gear. Whether any particular person will benefit is an individual matter.

I have attended several THX demonstrations that were really stunning.
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post #12 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
Really? You think THX just takes money from manufacturers and doesn't require any performance criteria?

And you know this how?

No one is asking you to believe anything, as you don't have a THX receiver so you would have no interest in finding out what kind of performance THX gear is capable of.

Read what Craig John had to say about THX in his post in this thread. Those are facts, not dubious speculation.
Where in my quote did I say that it didn't have to meet performance criteria? I better send my rythmik F15 back... it's not THX certified. My only point is that there are many many products out there that are just as capable of meeting their requirements. Get it? Key word in my post was "capable".

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post #13 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 11:23 AM
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i'm not so sure I'm drinking the kool-aid...any capable speaker should work. THX is a label they pay for. Now if it was a standard test that all products had to go through then it would be a different story.
THX is a certification process that guarantees the consumer that the certified gear will achieve specific performance criteria. It also guarantee's that all certified gear will work the same way with other certified gear, (at its' certification level.)

For example, there is something unique about THX speakers and subs. They are designed to work with the THX crossover. The THX crossover is a Linkwitz-Riley 4th Order/4th Order crossover. The High Pass is a 2nd order filter at 80 Hz that combines with the 2nd order roll off at 80 Hz of THX speakers to make the combined roll-off a 4th order roll-off. The Low Pass is a 4th Order filter at 80 Hz, which is designed to make the subwoofer non-localizeable. The dual 4th order roll-offs provide a crossover that is free from phase shifts. It works as a *system*.

I don't know of many other speakers that are designed with an 80 Hz, 2nd order roll-off. With any other speaker design, the appropriateness of the crossover is a crapshoot. For example, ported speakers have an inherent 4th order roll-off below tuning. If you have a ported speaker with a -3 dB point of, say, 45 Hz, and you use an 80 Hz, 2nd order High Pass, you'll have a 2nd order roll off down to the 45 Hz tune point, then a 6th order roll off below the tune point. It'll "work" but it won't be ideal.

Or, if you use a small speaker with say, a 120 Hz -3 dB point, you'll need to crossover above 120 Hz, and then the sub will become localizeable.

The THX crossover is a real thing of beauty and it allows the consumer to use any THX certified speakers with any THX certified receiver or pre/pro and *know* that they have a Bass Management system that was designed to work ideally with their system. To me, that is worth the price of the THX logo.

BTW, my system consists of an Integra DHC-80.2, with THX Ultra2 certification, and Atlantic Technology 8200e LR speakers with THX Ultra2 certification. My amps and subs are not THX certified, but then I don't *need* them to be. My projector, (BenQ W10000), is not THX certified, but it does have an ISF mode and it has been professionally calibrated by an ISF certified calibrator, so my line of thinking is the same there.

Certification has value. Whether THX certification has value to *you*, is up to you. However, it should not be summarily dismissed as a waste of money.

Craig

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post #14 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
THX is a certification process that guarantees the consumer that the certified gear will achieve specific performance criteria. It also guarantee's that all certified gear will work the same way with other certified gear, (at its' certification level.)

For example, there is something unique about THX speakers and subs. They are designed to work with the THX crossover. The THX crossover is a Linkwitz-Riley 4th Order/4th Order crossover. The High Pass is a 2nd order filter at 80 Hz that combines with the 2nd order roll off at 80 Hz of THX speakers to make the combined roll-off a 4th order roll-off. The Low Pass is a 4th Order filter at 80 Hz, which is designed to make the subwoofer non-localizeable. The dual 4th order roll-offs provide a crossover that is free from phase shifts. It works as a *system*.

I don't know of many other speakers that are designed with an 80 Hz, 2nd order roll-off. With any other speaker design, the appropriateness of the crossover is a crapshoot. For example, ported speakers have an inherent 4th order roll-off below tuning. If you have a ported speaker with a -3 dB point of, say, 45 Hz, and you use an 80 Hz, 2nd order High Pass, you'll have a 2nd order roll off down to the 45 Hz tune point, then a 6th order roll off below the tune point. It'll "work" but it won't be ideal.

Or, if you use a small speaker with say, a 120 Hz -3 dB point, you'll need to crossover above 120 Hz, and then the sub will become localizeable.

The THX crossover is a real thing of beauty and it allows the consumer to use any THX certified speakers with any THX certified receiver or pre/pro and *know* that they have a Bass Management system that was designed to work ideally with their system. To me, that is worth the price of the THX logo.

BTW, my system consists of an Integra DHC-80.2, with THX Ultra2 certification, and Atlantic Technology 8200e LR speakers with THX Ultra2 certification. My amps and subs are not THX certified, but then I don't *need* them to be. My projector, (BenQ W10000), is not THX certified, but it does have an ISF mode and it has been professionally calibrated by an ISF certified calibrator, so my line of thinking is the same there.

Certification has value. Whether THX certification has value to *you*, is up to you. However, it should not be summarily dismissed as a waste of money.

Craig
I think you're misunderstanding me and that is probably my fault.
I don't think it's a waste of money. Like you, I wanted the OP to know that he should not pass on buying a certain subwoofer because it is not THX certified.

If THX certified products are so much better, then why don't all the major brands follow their guidelines... and not pay for the label? Surely they know the criteria and have the technology to copy it, maybe not? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if THX was so much better everyone would be building their products to spec. There are many $1000 products out there that are not THX certified. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here as you obviously know more than I do. I do appreciate your input.

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post #15 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 11:39 AM
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Maybe I should ask this question too.
Is it more important that a receiver is THX certified than a speaker or subwoofer?

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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post #16 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 11:44 AM
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I'm not saying that THX specs don't have merit. But you can design a piece of equipment to be THX compliant but then opt not to have to pay to have the THX logo put on the equipment. Then you have a piece of gear that complies, but is cheaper and you are able to pass the savings on to the consumer.

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post #17 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 11:56 AM
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One thing that we have been complaining about for years is the lack of standards. THX certification is a step in that direction. Because, for now, it is a proprietary certification, it will have costs to the OEM/consumer. If it gets widely accepted, those costs should come down. Does anyone know what the certification costs? I would think that the cost, spread across the total product sales, should be insignificant. Especially if you can get a product line certified versus each individual product.

The one thing it does is to give the consumer a level of confidence on the performance of their SYSTEM and not just individual, but maybe incompatible, components.

If/when the certification does get more widely accepted, I would bet you will start to see products that claim THX compliant even though they haven't paid for the certification. Of course, this will give us another 'Buyer Beware' concern to deal with.

Remember Dolby and the DD logos were licensed products. OEMs could not just slap the DD on their products. They had to implement, comply, and pay for that right. Did consumers complain that it was a worthless added cost?

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post #18 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post
I'm not saying that THX specs don't have merit. But you can design a piece of equipment to be THX compliant but then opt not to have to pay to have the THX logo put on the equipment. Then you have a piece of gear that complies, but is cheaper and you are able to pass the savings on to the consumer.
Maybe you didn't read this:

"For example there is something unique about THX speakers and subs..."

"Certification has merit. Whether THX certification has merit to *you*, is up to you. However, it should not be summarily dismissed as a waste of money."
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post #19 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post
One thing that we have been complaining about for years is the lack of standards. THX certification is a step in that direction. Because, for now, it is a proprietary certification, it will have costs to the OEM/consumer. If it gets widely accepted, those costs should come down. Does anyone know what the certification costs? I would think that the cost, spread across the total product sales, should be insignificant. Especially if you can get a product line certified versus each individual product.

The one thing it does is to give the consumer a level of confidence on the performance of their SYSTEM and not just individual, but maybe incompatible, components.

If/when the certification does get more widely accepted, I would bet you will start to see products that claim THX compliant even though they haven't paid for the certification. Of course, this will give us another 'Buyer Beware' concern to deal with.

Remember Dolby and the DD logos were licensed products. OEMs could not just slap the DD on their products. They had to implement, comply, and pay for that right. Did consumers complain that it was a worthless added cost?
I dont think anyone here is saying it's worthless. In an earlier post I made the point already that once it becomes a standard that everyone uses it will be a great thing.

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post #20 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
Maybe you didn't read this:

"For example there is something unique about THX speakers and subs..."

"Certification has merit. Whether THX certification has merit to *you*, is up to you. However, it should not be summarily dismissed as a waste of money."
You're missing his point... He is saying that a company could make a speaker to match THX requirements without paying for the logo. Is that not possible?

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post #21 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:19 PM
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I dont think anyone here is saying it's worthless. In an earlier post I made the point already that once it becomes a standard that everyone uses it will be a great thing.
That's not likely to happen, so if any added costs for THX certification pushes you beyond your ability to pay for THX, just keep on doing what you have been, but don't knock THX because it is not univeral.

Some members have been using THX products for many years, whether it makes sense for *you* is another story.
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post #22 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:21 PM
 
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You're missing his point... He is saying that a company could make a speaker to match THX requirements without paying for the logo. Is that not possible?
Of course it's possible, but how would you know? The certification process verifies that the product meets the specs, without that it's just the manufacturers word on it.
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post #23 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:25 PM
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Of course it's possible, but how would you know? The certification process verifies that the product meets the specs, without that it's just the manufacturers word on it.
Right, you would have to take the manufactures word for it. Given an honest manufacturer they should have the ability to comply. Also if a product was branded THX compliant and you took it home...given that THX is better you would hear a difference right? Cause that is the main thing...hearing the difference.

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post #24 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:30 PM
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Its nice to buy something that meets certain requirements...Personally, I like thier processing fields.
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post #25 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post
Maybe I should ask this question too.
Is it more important that a receiver is THX certified than a speaker or subwoofer?
That's not really an answerable question. They are meant to work together. I wouldn't buy THX speakers and then NOT use them with a THX receiver or pre/pro. I wouldn't buy a THX receiver, just for it's THX certification, if I wasn't going to use it with THX speakers. I would either buy them together or not at all.

In an audio *system* is it essential that everything works together properly. THX certification ensures that they will. It ensures that the amps have enough power to driver the speakers to Ref. Level in the sized space that they're certified for. It ensures the speakers have enough sensitivity and power handling to reach Ref. Level. It ensures the speakers will have wide horizontal dispersion to provide broad coverage of the listening area, and limited vertical dispersion to reduce reflections off the floor and ceiling. It ensures the crossover between the speakers and sub(s) will be optimal. It provides some specific processing modes that some feel can improve the sound. If these things are important to you, and you want to be certain that your system can reach these levels of performance, then you should look into *both* THX certified speakers and subs AND a THX certified receiver or pre/pro.

OTOH, there are certainly other audio products that meet or exceed THX criteria. It's entirely possible to put together a system capable of THX levels of performance without THX certification. However, it's up to the user to evaluate and select equipment that works together as well as THX gear does.

Craig

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post #26 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post
Right, you would have to take the manufactures word for it. Given an honest manufacturer they should have the ability to comply. Also if a product was branded THX compliant and you took it home...given that THX is better you would hear a difference right? Cause that is the main thing...hearing the difference.
John Dahl, the Director of Education for THX, has repeatedly said that they fail many pieces if gear on first submission, and send it back for re-engineering. If the engineers can't get it right *with* the THX specifications in hand, how could you, (or the uncertified manufacturer) be sure that their claim of meeting the specs is correct?

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post #27 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

OTOH, there are certainly other audio products that meet or exceed THX criteria. It's entirely possible to put together a system capable of THX levels of performance without THX certification. However, it's up to the user to evaluate and select equipment that works together as well as THX gear does.

Craig
This is exactly what I mean. I don't see THX as a bad thing at all. I do see it as something that is very useful to less knowledgeable consumers. You or anyone else that spends a lot of time on this forum would be able to easily put together a system that is not THX certified that would meet the requirements. Everything by Mark Seaton comes to mind.
Thanks for the input. I can appreciate a person that can make a point with out becoming defensive. That's what these forums are all about.

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post #28 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

This is exactly what I mean. I don't see THX as a bad thing at all. I do see it as something that is very useful to less knowledgeable consumers. You or anyone else that spends a lot of time on this forum would be able to easily put together a system that is not THX certified that would meet the requirements. Everything by Mark Seaton comes to mind.
Thanks for the input. I can appreciate a person that can make a point with out becoming defensive. That's what these forums are all about.

Yes, of course it can be done. However, I'll just say that, to get THX performance levels, you are likely going to pay very close to the cost of THX certified gear. In fact, it might cost more.

And BTW, I agree about Mark Seaton products. My 3 subwoofers are Submersive HP's.

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post #29 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Talk about great replies, and your knowledge on THX is very impressive Craig.

Now I want THX certified speakers to be able to use those sound modes... Since I have THX Select 2, I guess it's important to have at least THX Select 2 certified sub/speakers as well.

This is very interesting, and while searching for THX certified speakers, I have only found 1 quality brand... Crystal Acoustics, are there any others that I am missing?
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post #30 of 210 Old 01-29-2011, 03:04 PM
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Talk about great replies, and your knowledge on THX is very impressive Craig.

Now I want THX certified speakers to be able to use those sound modes... Since I have THX Select 2, I guess it's important to have at least THX Select 2 certified sub/speakers as well.

This is very interesting, and while searching for THX certified speakers, I have only found 1 quality brand... Crystal Acoustics, are there any others that I am missing?

Not sure what you mean about a 'quality brand' but Jamo makes 2 lines of THX speakers

http://www.jamo.com/na-en/products/t...ers-by-series/
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