SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JackOften View Post
I guess we can both speculate to the meaning, but why hasn't Bossobass answered the criticism?

I'd also love to speculate with you on why he doesn't answer, and why his posts are often condesending, but that would belong in a "Behavioral Science Forum" and not a "A/V Science Forum"
I'm not so sure that we can speculate whether one should look at two sentences separated by a blank line and whether or not they should be taken together (or for that matter an entire post taken as a whole) when determining the context of what was being said. Actually, that's not true, we could speculate all we want about it.

Yes, we could also speculate on why Bosso doesn't come back to answer to your comments and concerns about his posting style and how you and possibly some others feel his posts are too condescending and or mean spirited/belittling, etc. etc. But a) I feel this wouldn't go over too well and remarks of "condescending" and/or "holier than though attitude" would once again come into play, and b) we've probably discussed your obvious bias and feelings towards Bosso (and mine, and others) too much in this thread as it is.

Maybe you should start up a separate thread for it? Actually, I encourage it. The "Bosso - I feel he is too condescending/belittling with his responses and would like to discuss why he ignores my posts and does not come back to answer to my charges ... let's discuss" thread. I'm fairly certain you'd get an incredible amount of responses both in agreement and disagreement, and it would be quite the entertaining thread.

 

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post #362 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post
Read up on the threads in here as they are an invaluable source of knowledge ..

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ests-archived/

In particular, "Subwoofer tests explained" is a great read. Albeit somewhat technical. I'd also read the shootout threads as they go into the differences amongst subs and what the measurements mean. Note, this is a LOT of reading. Just a warning.

As for a guide for verifying a new subwoofer is "better than an old one". I can't think of one off hand.


Thanks pbc... I will take a look... and thanks for the warning

That "better than an old one" verification is because I think it is quite common that when you purchase a new sub you could expect it is better than a previous one you may own, specially if it is from the same mfg. I know that is just an expectation, not a fact

So there why a Sub Testing Guide for wanabes like jm10 becomes useful... you see? Just to take out the expectation and work with facts.
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post #363 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 09:50 AM
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... so here I come with another literal translation....

The Reason is like a big cake. Every one of us has a piece. Some pieces are slightly bigger than others, yes. BUT, no one have the whole cake.

Take it easy guys... spend more time making love with your wifes or girlfriends
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post #364 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 10:15 AM
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I used to make fun of Rodney King's "can't we all just get along??" plea but hey, he was right. All of this fussing about minute details that can fit on the head of a pin take away from the original intent of the OP's review - which was to pass along whatever information they could to us, as fairly as they could, and to that end I think they did a fantastic job. I feel that I am much better off after having read the review in terms of information, than I would be had the review not been published. Whether or not it is complete doesn't matter, it has made a valuable contribution to the overall knowledge base.
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post #365 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post
Maybe you should start up a separate thread for it? Actually, I encourage it. The "Bosso - I feel he is too condescending/belittling with his responses and would like to discuss why he ignores my posts and does not come back to answer to my charges ... let's discuss" thread. I'm fairly certain you'd get an incredible amount of responses both in agreement and disagreement, and it would be quite the entertaining thread.
I like it! We could also start a "Why pbc and other Bossobass apologists stick up for him when a critical eye suddenly is brought to bare on their subjective and unscientific statements" thread!

Why don't you take first crack at it?
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post #366 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 10:43 AM
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JackOften: Mr. Bossobass, do I have your full attention?
Bossobass: [stares out the window] No.
JackOften: Do you think I deserve it?
Bossobass: [looks at Jackoften] What?
JackOften: Do you think I deserve your full attention?
Bossobass: I had to swear an oath before we began this deposition, and I don't want to perjure myself, so I have a legal obligation to say no.
JackOften: Okay - no. You don't think I deserve your attention.
Bossobass: I think if your clients want to sit on my shoulders and call themselves tall, they have the right to give it a try - but there's no requirement that I enjoy sitting here listening to people lie. You have part of my attention - you have the minimum amount. The rest of my attention is back at the offices of the Blackbird, where my colleagues and I are doing things that no one in this room, including and especially your clients, are intellectually or creatively capable of doing.
[pauses]
Bossobass: Did I adequately answer your condescending question?
I don't know why, but this scene came to mind as I was reading your posts about why isn't Bosso responding to your charges of condescension and belittling.

Anyhow, as mentioned, if you are really that irked by Bosso and possibly losing sleep over it, start a separate thread about your concerns, I think we have both p*ssed far enough in this one.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #367 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 10:51 AM
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The Subwoofer Network

Sounds lovely.
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post #368 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 10:52 AM
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It's too bad AVS doesn't have a Steam Vent like forum... Might I suggest carrying out this discussion at the following forum so we can get back to discussing the shootout:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/






Life is good.
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post #369 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 10:58 AM
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We have all levels of knowledge here on avsforum and as dedicated enthusiasts/hobbyists and downright junkies we are the niche portion of home theatre people compared to the general populace. In my opinion the work Ethan and Adam did was still a good contribution to the community because it sparks discussion and it does supply more information even if you feel that information might be flawed from a technical standpoint.

Hell I like it just for the fact that the videos and pictures give a great look at the aesthetics of a sub and gives me a much better idea of how something may look in my home vs the manufacturer pictures. Many times when looking at manufacturer pics they are limited in angles, not close enough on the rear of the sub and often are taken from too far of a distance away. While this may not be of that much importance to performance I happen to take aesthetics into my equation, especially since many of these subs in a similar price class will be relatively close on performance at the end of the day.

As far as learning goes my knowledge on subs is low. Less than Ethan and Adams and while I am trying to learn I enjoy the discussions that follow. We have some elite people here when it comes to levels of knowledge and I simply am not at a level where I can understand all of what they say. That isn't their fault at all. It is my fault but the reason I am here is to work towards earning that level of knowledge so when those posts come it doesn't feel like an avalanche on me. The discussions in these threads help me strengthen my foundation. This knowledge can't be learned overnight and I'm sure some of the highest level of knowledge users here have learned from years of experience and still come to new revelations to this day.

So while some people who think these types of things are meaningless from the numbers and execution standpoint I think the threads do provide a great service for learning for people like me. From the science portion of avsforum I never throw away any data, even if it is a faild execution of results to some people to me it is just more data gathered and that is a good thing.
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post #370 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:23 AM
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What people need to understand is that any test done in a room will be effected by that room. If you look at the frequency responses of each sub you can see that there are some subs louder at certain frequencies than others. Even after level calibration these higher levels will be noticed during playback and might seem to be better than the others. To truly just compare subs they need to flatten the response as much as possible. What happens next is that the sub that extends the deepest or plays the loudest will truly stand out. It happened to me and I would have never known if I did not purchase new subs and wonder what was going on. Now if ones intention is to buy a sub and just plug and play then whatever sounds best is the sub you choose but it is not because the sub is better. It may have a peak at a certain frequency you like compared to a different sub that might peak at a different frequency that is not as pleasing. I can tell you that the flatter I made my graph the better I liked the sound and the better you can compare. My DTS-10's had a huge peak from 10-25hz and made every other sub sound like the low end was lacking compared to it. Once I figured that out I brought down that peak and then compared and now it was a different story.

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post #371 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:26 AM
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It happened to me and I would have never known if I did not purchase new subs and wonder what was going on.

Hey MK, would you not also add that we recommended level matching to make any in room comparison valid?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #372 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:28 AM
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Hoes does the VTF15 compare to the SVS PB12-Plus? The VTF15 pretty much costs about he same as the SVS when I had it shipped over to Canada. I have no clue why'd they use fedex as opposed to working out on a group buy and sending the sub(s) over via LCL/Consolidation.
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post #373 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

..... From the science portion of avsforum I never throw away any data, even if it is a faild execution of results to some people to me it is just more data gathered and that is a good thing.

Really this isn't "a failed execution of results to some people"....its simply "a failed execution" without qualifiers.

Anyone that has any sort of back ground in testing,science, etc would tell you that bad data is simply bad data and should be 100% rejected. No valid conclusions can come from such data, only bad conclusions would result from accepting that sort of data and no educated scientific discussion would ever be discussed around such data.

I agree discussion,education is great but I would ignore the data. I also agree that the videos/pics are awesome. The format of the presentation is impressive.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #374 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

JackOften: Mr. Bossobass, do I have your full attention?
Bossobass: [stares out the window] No.
JackOften: Do you think I deserve it?
Bossobass: [looks at Jackoften] What?
JackOften: Do you think I deserve your full attention?
Bossobass: I had to swear an oath before we began this deposition, and I don't want to perjure myself, so I have a legal obligation to say no.
JackOften: Okay - no. You don't think I deserve your attention.
Bossobass: I think if your clients want to sit on my shoulders and call themselves tall, they have the right to give it a try - but there's no requirement that I enjoy sitting here listening to people lie. You have part of my attention - you have the minimum amount. The rest of my attention is back at the offices of the Blackbird, where my colleagues and I are doing things that no one in this room, including and especially your clients, are intellectually or creatively capable of doing.
[pauses]
Bossobass: Did I adequately answer your condescending question?

Love the fiction. Did you make that up yourself? I'm not bad either:

Quote:


pbd: I can't stick to facts. I'm going to have to make stuff up.
Bosso: Don't do it. When I did the Blackbird numbers and graphs, I got lucky few questioned the measurements. The ones that did I quickly dispatched with a mocking tone. People might notice.
pbd: I can't let them continue to question your unsubstantiated claims. You are beyond reproach. I will protect you.
Bosso: Keep quiet. What happens if he puts the blackbird numbers are put under a magnifying glass. I'm not saying I made up most of the results, but the video footage and pictures I took of the testing have gone missing somehow. The longer this draws out the more questions i'll have about my snake oil that i'm selling like medicine.
pbd: I know, I'll use a clever fictional monologue to throw everyone off track...

Pretty good? Nice second scene eh?

You're right about ending this. I've seen a fair amount of unshowered men in way-too-small t-shirts walking in front of my house the last few days, ever since I've started questioning the unsubstantiated claims made by those who usually post in the DIY section. Makes me nervous.
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post #375 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

unsubstantiated claims made

Feel free to post your knowledge about sub design or valid testing methods. Its okay to disagree but stay on point.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #376 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

It's too bad AVS doesn't have a Steam Vent like forum... Might I suggest carrying out this discussion at the following forum so we can get back to discussing the shootout:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/






+1

This thread has gotten a bit out of control.
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post #377 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:42 AM
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Well several of you tried to move the convo past the dead horse, and its not moving.

So let's wrap this up and be clear guys: no bosso wasn't unintentionally belittling the shootout. He started with the phrase "I'd love to join the love-fest, but...". Then said everything we did was "useless" and had no value. He was condescending and rude right from the start. And he and those that agree with him are wrong.

1) His reasoning for saying so is ridiculous. Because we didn't eQ the subs to match each other we have no clue how the subs "really" sound and any opinions we offer are useless? And any SPLs we post are useless? That in itself flies in the face of common sense. Think about how often you've listened to a sub and NOT done what bosso suggested. You think that means you have no clue how it performed?

2) There was no need to even post what he said because we clearly state we are aware how room response, room correction, etc. affects things, and that our readers could expect to get different results. We also clearly stated several times our intentions and reasons for doing things the way we did. The whole point of it was to test them as the majority would use them. What kind of sense does it make to say "you didn't test them to a much higher standard so your results are useless" knowing full well we did not test them in that manner on purpose? It was intended to inflame, not help. And it did inflame, and it did not help.

3) After I reminded him of that fact and corrected his erroneous statement about the 25hz boost on the Dayton SA1000, he still had the nerve to simply repeat his earlier assertions - with the same graphs!

4) The final bit of proof he's wrong about his assertion that our listening impressions are useless, is in the posts he's choosing to ignore. Several people posted and said our listening impressions are exactly how they perceive their sub's performance. But I guess they don't know how their sub sounds either.

We were pretty up front about how and why we tested the way we did. We tested the subs the way they'd be used. Testing them in a manner they won't be used is what's useless.

If you don't agree with that that's fine. Bosso doesn't agree, stated it rudely and that's cool. Maybe he's a jerk on boards but is super nice in real life. Who knows? I'm super nice on boards and a jerk in real life! At any rate, some of you agree with him, I'm guessing most don't. So that's it. We're getting to the point where no amount of disagreeing is going to change either side's opinion. We're now passing into the beating of a dead horse and I'd like to just move along. I'm sure some of you want to respond to this post, and that's fine. I'm willing to let it go if you guys want the last word. Then we can move on and get to more helpful topics. Thanks guys.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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post #378 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

Love the fiction. Did you make that up yourself? I'm not bad either:



Pretty good? Nice second scene eh?

You're right about ending this. I've seen a fair amount of unshowered men in way-too-small t-shirts walking in front of my house the last few days, ever since I've started questioning the unsubstantiated claims made by those who usually post in the DIY section. Makes me nervous.

The problem is with the notion that bosso's claims are unsubstantiated. If you knock around the movies with BASS thread, you'll see that he normally shows in-room waterfalls (ie the actual output of his system playing movies at reference) and occasionally compares to the electrical output of the LFE channel, and the two are uniformly very close. To me, that's quite a feat. To me, it indicates that he is flat in room to well below 10 Hz and with plenty of headroom to play at reference levels. I'm sure it took tons of time and if he moved his blackbirds to your house it would take tons of time to achieve a similar result because the room interaction would be entirely different.

Look, it's fine to have your opinion. What I think causes trouble on this forum is a lot of folks stating their opinions like they're facts. I can let your opinion rest once I've voiced mine, if I feel I need to. I sometimes have a problem leaving things that look like factual errors alone . . .
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post #379 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Hey MK, would you not also add that we recommended level matching to make any in room comparison valid?

Yes you guys did. I did level match or flatten each response the best I could with what I had and then picked the winner in sound. It happened to be the flatter choice, go figure. My room just was made for sealed.

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post #380 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:45 AM
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Your room SUCKS!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #381 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

To me, that's quite a feat. To me, it indicates that he is flat in room to well below 10 Hz and with plenty of headroom to play at reference levels. I'm sure it took tons of time and if he moved his blackbirds to your house it would take tons of time to achieve a similar result because the room interaction would be entirely different. . .

Bosso, like MK knows that it requires a sub system to acheive something most people don't have. This goes back to the efforts of Toole, Geddes, etc and how multiple subs are required. Bosso stacks them and there are theories behind that sort of design ( Double Bass arrays).

Its just a simple fact that having one or two subs just does not cut it for ultimate in room response. Not a lot of magic just requires a bigger system. Lots of subs and lots of displacement is really the core of how it works.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #382 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:55 AM
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So, I must have missed it... who won the shootout?
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post #383 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The problem is with the notion that bosso's claims are unsubstantiated. If you knock around the movies with BASS thread, you'll see that he normally shows in-room waterfalls (ie the actual output of his system playing movies at reference) and occasionally compares to the electrical output of the LFE channel, and the two are uniformly very close. To me, that's quite a feat. To me, it indicates that he is flat in room to well below 10 Hz and with plenty of headroom to play at reference levels. I'm sure it took tons of time and if he moved his blackbirds to your house it would take tons of time to achieve a similar result because the room interaction would be entirely different.

Look, it's fine to have your opinion. What I think causes trouble on this forum is a lot of folks stating their opinions like they're facts. I can let your opinion rest once I've voiced mine, if I feel I need to. I sometimes have a problem leaving things that look like factual errors alone . . .

I know you're late to the party... here's the claim I have an issue with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.

It doesn't have to do with numbers, graphs, curves, or frequencies. It has to do with Bosso's statement that subjective comments aren't for self-proclaimed amatuer subjective reviewers. The statement is off the charts in terms of lack of scientific data or even objective judgement. At best it's a subjective statement that he can't scientifically prove, it's just his hunch... a pompously stated hunch at best.
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post #384 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:04 PM
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So, I must have missed it... who won the shootout?

What shootout? Who said this thread had anything to do with a shootout? LMAO!
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post #385 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

BTW, how is the dual drive doing? Still bringing to your face?

Haven't had the opportunity to use it as much as I want! Really enjoy it though... right now i'm already thinking about "what to buy next". haha.
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post #386 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:14 PM
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I actually appreciate the way the tests were done. For the majority of buyers out there, you might might as well count out REW or the majority of other scientific tools used by more of the die hard enthusiasts. Automatic room eq is about the extent of it, outside of that most will go on what they hear. If they don't like it, most don't break out a cd with test tones and get an spl meter to see what's out of place then eq accordingly or start going at with bass traps/room treatments.

With that being said, I spend a lot of time reading in the DIY section and definitley grown to appreciate the numbers, graphs, and more applied science as well. They both have their place. A lot of times many will be happy with their set up until they hear better. Once in the know, you either duplicate the experience by buying the exact same products to recreate the experience or research to get a similar end result. In the process of researching comes more knowledge and a more diligent pursuit to get to the top of the food chain. Then the fact that the room plays an enormous part and the madness begins. We all gotta start somewhere.
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post #387 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Really this isn't "a failed execution of results to some people"....its simply "a failed execution" without qualifiers.

Anyone that has any sort of back ground in testing,science, etc would tell you that bad data is simply bad data and should be 100% rejected. No valid conclusions can come from such data, only bad conclusions would result from accepting that sort of data and no educated scientific discussion would ever be discussed around such data.

I agree discussion,education is great but I would ignore the data. I also agree that the videos/pics are awesome. The format of the presentation is impressive.

My words there were confusing by my own admission. What I meant by data was not the actual hard numbers. What I mean is the process of it and the discussion that ensues that shows why it is a bad method. The method might be bad but to me as someone who is learning I'm glad the process is written down and explain so later when people refute the process and say why then that to me is the data and the learning. What I meant by data is just the knowledge. The errors in the process might be very easy to see to you and you know why it is bad info and flawed but I don't. So in the end what I call data is usable to me as a learning experience even if the method is flawed I learned from the process, due to the discussion that followed. I hope that makes more sense.

When you say no educated scientific discussion would ever be discussed around such data I feel the opposite. I feel there has been a lot of science discussion around this data hence why this topic has been at the top of the board since it was posted. Again someone with top knowledge like yourself can throw out the numbers off the top because of your foundation of learned sciences but for someone like me the discussion on that data helps build my foundation that you already have.

At the end this has been a good topic for me and I am very glad it was done. It has helped me learn and that is why I say there is no bad data. The process of the discussion has been meaningful.
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post #388 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:42 PM
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So, I must have missed it... who won the shootout?

From what I read into it the HSU won hands down. j/k
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post #389 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:44 PM
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I know you're late to the party... here's the claim I have an issue with:

It doesn't have to do with numbers, graphs, curves, or frequencies. It has to do with Bosso's statement that subjective comments aren't for self-proclaimed amatuer subjective reviewers. The statement is off the charts in terms of lack of scientific data or even objective judgement. At best it's a subjective statement that he can't scientifically prove, it's just his hunch... a pompously stated hunch at best.

I've already commented on this once. I'll do it agin. Bosso is not impugning the OPs' perspicacity or truthfulness or anything else. What he is saying, to me, is that until you make the effort to flaten FR you are commenting more on the room than the sub, and until you flatten the frequency response you don't know what the comparable maximum outputs will be from the various subs.

Just for an example, for whatever reason the Epik has a significantly deeper dip in the room null around 45 Hz. So any explosion or sound effect that happens to contain large amounts of 40 to 45 Hz information or be dominated by those frequencies will show the Epik being weaker in output, and it certainly will sound different from the other subs (there's a 10 dB mazimum difference among the subs at 40 Hz, as I recall).

So maybe bosso should have said that any comments are strictly limited to the subs in that position in that room, but to me, that qualifier to bosso's statement goes without saying (again) since he already said it.
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post #390 of 1257 Old 02-10-2011, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

So maybe bosso should have said that any comments are strictly limited to the subs in that position in that room, but to me, that qualifier to bosso's statement goes without saying (again) since he already said it.

if that's all he was saying, then he didn't need to say it at all since we already did.

EDIT: oh for the love of Pete. I just went back to the first page and realized I left out the part in the Test Setup/ Methodology where we state that the reader's results will different based on room, etc. I am soooooooo sorry guys. I've been looking at my notes in Word, not the actual post. I'll add it in when i get home then.

btw, i'll leave what i said above in to be fair.

but I'm also going to reiterate the notion that EQing the subs to flat is the only way to test the subs when a large majority of the people are never going to do that is ridiculous.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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