SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 11:17 AM
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if the room correction software is trying to boost a nasty room null, the over-all performance of the sub will suffer

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post #452 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 11:26 AM
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As far as I am concerned this is a very good shoot out conducted in the real world.
The real world data verifies the low end roll off AH measured at ground plane.
The people who have open floor plans (or have +5k^ft rooms) and want to get 20Hz performance really need to pay attention to what this shoot out (and the one AH is doing) is telling you about the subs being tested.

Without the ability to listen side by side for yourself to decide SQ preference FR and SPL graphs are all there is to go on along with the subjective SQ comments of the people who are testing the subs.
I have no problem with subjective SQ descriptions when listening to subs back to back to back.
In the context of comparing subs in the real world this is about as good as it gets unless you want to drag a bunch of them into your own home and do this exercise for yourself.

If I were to be so rude as to ask for anything else to be added it would be for the brothers to do their own ground plane measurements.
While I have no issues whatsoever with the in room FR graphs it does seem like a number of people do.
I fully understand why a couple of guys doing something for the fun of it would choose not to do that since that would add 50+% more time to the effort.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #453 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post
MK,

That is your problem, you are not an optimistic man!
Believe me this one time.Please.
WHy you don't want the HSU sub to be superior than what was measured?
I am optimistic but unbiased. I just paraphrased what he said. I also said or questioned why he would take the port out of the measurement equation. I have nothing against HSU, never did.
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post #454 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post
if the room correction software is trying to boost a nasty room null, the over-all performance of the sub will suffer
Agreed but it's a bridge that has yet to be crossed.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #455 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 02:25 PM
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Cacimar, we haven't checked the amp yet, so we really can't say that at the moment.

Sincerely,

Pete - Hsu Research
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post #456 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

Cacimar, we haven't checked the amp yet, so we really can't say that at the moment.

Sincerely,

I know, I'm just playing with MK's head.

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #457 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 03:59 PM
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I know, I'm just playing with MK's head.

So you now work for Freddie Roach?
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post #458 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I agree, but only to a point. Unlike speakers, subs often cannot be adequately evaluated by ear alone. What I mean is that when you are looking at 1K plus for a sub you're looking for performance above and beyond the norm, extended output at high spls, etc. Unless you have measurement equipment to verify this performance you need to rely on Pro reviews to determine if the sub in question will, indeed, deliver the goods. Spending $300 or more to test out a sub is only worth it if you have a reasonable chance of success!

A good sub should merely anchor the bottom end and get out of the way. If you're playing a recording and somethin sticks out of place or detracts from the performance you can hear it. Play a recording with 2 speakers high passed at say 80hz then add in the sub. It should sound more full and detailed not detract from your enjoyment. If it's annoying then either the level is set to high in relation to the mains, or it's poorly designed with bad transient response, and/or it's interacting with the room and giving some peaks or nulls. You should be able to tell with your ears in your room if you like it or not. As for high spls just get an spl meter. If not that then level match the subs to your mains and play a demanding scene a few clicks down from reference. If it bottoms out or starts to sound muddy or loses composure, then probably not so great on the dynamic stuff or at least restricted to certain frequencies (ie needs high pass filter). I have formidable subs, which keep up with my mains and can go louder than my ears can take. No pro review necessary to tell me that.
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post #459 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

As far as I am concerned this is a very good shoot out conducted in the real world.
The real world data verifies the low end roll off AH measured at ground plane.
The people who have open floor plans (or have +5k^ft rooms) and want to get 20Hz performance really need to pay attention to what this shoot out (and the one AH is doing) is telling you about the subs being tested.

Without the ability to listen side by side for yourself to decide SQ preference FR and SPL graphs are all there is to go on along with the subjective SQ comments of the people who are testing the subs.
I have no problem with subjective SQ descriptions when listening to subs back to back to back.
In the context of comparing subs in the real world this is about as good as it gets unless you want to drag a bunch of them into your own home and do this exercise for yourself.

If I were to be so rude as to ask for anything else to be added it would be for the brothers to do their own ground plane measurements.
While I have no issues whatsoever with the in room FR graphs it does seem like a number of people do.
I fully understand why a couple of guys doing something for the fun of it would choose not to do that since that would add 50+% more time to the effort.

I agree with your assessment that this exercise has more value than perhaps some folks think.
The FR response graphs have value to me not because they illustate much about the subs themselves but that by keeping the sub location and listening position constant the room effects on the subs were approximately the same, which meant the only variable from one test to another was the sub itself. So there's some merit to SQ and output comparisons in my opinion. The idea that the experience is not transferable to the reader in his own room is true and good to know, but not a criticism of the work that was done since there's no alternative testing procedure that can address it.
So while there are testing methods mentioned that will expose each sub's true performance profile and capability better than the one used here, this was considerably better than nothing. The original post and ensuing comments have done a lot to add to the knowledge base of readers here I think, which is what the forum is all about.
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post #460 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 05:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

A good sub should merely anchor the bottom end and get out of the way. If you're playing a recording and somethin sticks out of place or detracts from the performance you can hear it. Play a recording with 2 speakers high passed at say 80hz then add in the sub. It should sound more full and detailed not detract from your enjoyment. If it's annoying then either the level is set to high in relation to the mains, or it's poorly designed with bad transient response, and/or it's interacting with the room and giving some peaks or nulls. You should be able to tell with your ears in your room if you like it or not. As for high spls just get an spl meter. If not that then level match the subs to your mains and play a demanding scene a few clicks down from reference. If it bottoms out or starts to sound muddy or loses composure, then probably not so great on the dynamic stuff or at least restricted to certain frequencies (ie needs high pass filter). I have formidable subs, which keep up with my mains and can go louder than my ears can take. No pro review necessary to tell me that.

Wow, someone who actually is listening to two channel music! I thought you all were gone...! Seriously, I'm referring to HT, and I haven't listened to two channel music in years. Time marches on, stereo can't hold a candle to multi-channel music, and home theater is an entirely different ballgame! Subs do not "get out of the way", on the contrary, subs are the anchor to a quality home theater experience. My 4 subs shake my HT to the rafters, and I still want more! If all you want is something to fill in the bottom for music any number of subs will do, if you're looking for reference level playback for the latest movies you need something a bit more potent.
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post #461 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Wow, someone who actually is listening to two channel music! I thought you all were gone...! Seriously, I'm referring to HT, and I haven't listened to two channel music in years. Time marches on, stereo can't hold a candle to multi-channel music, and home theater is an entirely different ballgame! Subs do not "get out of the way", on the contrary, subs are the anchor to a quality home theater experience. My 4 subs shake my HT to the rafters, and I still want more! If all you want is something to fill in the bottom for music any number of subs will do, if you're looking for reference level playback for the latest movies you need something a bit more potent.

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #462 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Wow, someone who actually is listening to two channel music! I thought you all were gone...! Seriously, I'm referring to HT, and I haven't listened to two channel music in years. Time marches on, stereo can't hold a candle to multi-channel music, and home theater is an entirely different ballgame! Subs do not "get out of the way", on the contrary, subs are the anchor to a quality home theater experience. My 4 subs shake my HT to the rafters, and I still want more! If all you want is something to fill in the bottom for music any number of subs will do, if you're looking for reference level playback for the latest movies you need something a bit more potent.

I was just giving an example regarding the stereo format. However, on my theater system I don't listen to DVD A or SACD and only once in awhile all channel stereo. So yes for music playback it's the old 2 channel dinosaur. I disagree that any number of subs will do for music, that to me is a lot more critical. For music there is a point for reference for what live instrumentation sounds like as well as the human voice. For movies most of the sound is manufactured so get adequate cone area, sufficient power, and have most of the bandwith covered and you should be good on the boom, boom, pow and foot stomps in movies. For the record I love a surplus of bass too. Gotta couple of DTS 10s, a Captivator and a couple of 15s on midbass duty so no shortage here. BTW how did you know your subs were shaking the rafters without a pro audio reviewer to validate that?
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post #463 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 08:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I was just giving an example regarding the stereo format. However, on my theater system I don't listen to DVD A or SACD and only once in awhile all channel stereo. So yes for music playback it's the old 2 channel dinosaur. I disagree that any number of subs will do for music, that to me is a lot more critical. For music there is a point for reference for what live instrumentation sounds like as well as the human voice. For movies most of the sound is manufactured so get adequate cone area, sufficient power, and have most of the bandwith covered and you should be good on the boom, boom, pow and foot stomps in movies. For the record I love a surplus of bass too. Gotta couple of DTS 10s, a Captivator and a couple of 15s on midbass duty so no shortage here. BTW how did you know your subs were shaking the rafters without a pro audio reviewer to validate that?

SMS-1 graphs, Rives test CD and SPL meter, and lots of time tweaking! I believe for music any sealed sub that has a respectable response to below 30hz will do nicely, unless you're into organ music!
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post #464 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 08:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

Cool, you could just buy an Emotiva Sub 12 (on sale) and be all set!
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post #465 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

Agreed.

If it didn't, then the sound engineers/mixers would jack the bass up to begin with.

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post #466 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 09:02 PM
 
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I could have been satisfied many moons ago if I didn't chase reference level quality in my HT. Consider yourself lucky if you are happy without going through the effort, it is an addiction!
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post #467 of 1246 Old 02-11-2011, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I could have been satisfied many moons ago if I didn't chase reference level quality in my HT. Consider yourself lucky if you are happy without going through the effort, it is an addiction!

Are you talking a balance system at reference, or jacked up bass?

"Reference Level" is meant for the recording/production standpoint, so that all systems in the recording/production chain are calibrated to a standard. It is not meant as a listening reference. This is something that is ALWAYS forgotten.

That isn't to say that you are wrong for wanting to listen to your material that loudly, but it is to say that listening that loudly is not a "reference" point. If you want to listen at the level the movie was intended or recorded, then you need to know the dialnorm value that was used for that movie. The idea is to listen at a level that you are comfortable with, not the loudest level you are comfortable with.

Anyways, there are other threads about this.

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post #468 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I could have been satisfied many moons ago if I didn't chase reference level quality in my HT. Consider yourself lucky if you are happy without going through the effort, it is an addiction!

Got any FR graphs vs SPL of your system ?

Regards,
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post #469 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

For me, it's "agree" on the 1st part and "disagree" on the 2nd. For movies, a lot of times I am watching with the wife and it just doesn't fly to have the overall volume way up there. But I can get away with having the low end somewhat enhanced. For music, somewhat the same...overall I don't like it as loud as I used to, 75-85 db is great but at 85 db you aren't really going to feel any bass unless you apply a "house curve". I have studio monitors that are flat down to about 45 Hz and the bass sounds very weak to me without the addition of a sub.
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post #470 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Madaeel View Post

We do NOT intend our shootout to be a final word in determining a king of $1000 Internet Direct (ID) subs. We approached our shootout from a totally different perspective than has been normal for these things. We feel it's something a lot of you have been wanting from a review or shootout. So here it is:

awesome thread

thanks for all the hard work you put into it

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post #471 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 06:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Are you talking a balance system at reference, or jacked up bass?

"Reference Level" is meant for the recording/production standpoint, so that all systems in the recording/production chain are calibrated to a standard. It is not meant as a listening reference. This is something that is ALWAYS forgotten.

That isn't to say that you are wrong for wanting to listen to your material that loudly, but it is to say that listening that loudly is not a "reference" point. If you want to listen at the level the movie was intended or recorded, then you need to know the dialnorm value that was used for that movie. The idea is to listen at a level that you are comfortable with, not the loudest level you are comfortable with.

Anyways, there are other threads about this.

What I mean by reference level is this http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...ference-level/

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to Klipsch THX KL-650s I'm finally able to reach levels that never sounded as good previously! Part of this desire has to do with use, those interested in music only or those whose theaters are TV based may not need or want this capability. Projector based systems really demonstrate the need for audio to match the much larger video. While you don't need reference level to enjoy movies, once you can do so it gets addicting. I don't watch TV with my projector, that's done in another room and there I never listen at anywhere close to reference. I'm now wondering if I need to upgrade my bass to the next level, which is why I've been following this thread.
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post #472 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

What I mean by reference level is this http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...ference-level/

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to Klipsch THX KL-650s I'm finally able to reach levels that never sounded as good previously! Part of this desire has to do with use, those interested in music only or those whose theaters are TV based may not need or want this capability. Projector based systems really demonstrate the need for audio to match the much larger video. While you don't need reference level to enjoy movies, once you can do so it gets addicting. I don't watch TV with my projector, that's done in another room and there I never listen at anywhere close to reference. I'm now wondering if I need to upgrade my bass to the next level, which is why I've been following this thread.

I am with you on this one. I went to a THX certified cinema and the sound was awesome, it was very loud and clear, I was addicted and have not looked back.
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post #473 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 07:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am with you on this one. I went to a THX certified cinema and the sound was awesome, it was very loud and clear, I was addicted and have not looked back.

Yours is one of the theaters that got me interested in upgrading! I just wish I had the room you do, but so far I'm really happy with my choices. Now I have to address the bass, but there's no way for me to squeeze in your type of subwooferage!
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post #474 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am with you on this one. I went to a THX certified cinema and the sound was awesome, it was very loud and clear, I was addicted and have not looked back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Yours is one of the theaters that got me interested in upgrading! I just wish I had the room you do, but so far I'm really happy with my choices. Now I have to address the bass, but there's no way for me to squeeze in your type of subwooferage!

LOL... Well yeah... just about everybody wants MK's audio performance even if its not turned up to 11.

Regards,
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post #475 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 07:59 AM
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Klipsch THX ultra 2's do an excellent job of creating that cinema experience. Not much better for the price IMHO(used). My JBL's are the real deal and just makes things bigger and clearer, etc... All the speakers I have owned were more of a lateral move to the Klipsch until I went pro cinema.
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post #476 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post

...The original post and ensuing comments have done a lot to add to the knowledge base of readers here I think...

Yes, I believe that has been the main value of this whole exercise... in this case all the arguing has had some real value for the readers and some posters (unlike so many other bitch threads). Thanks guys for making the effort to test and review these subs here, I'm sure its been enlightening on some level for most everyone following the thread.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #477 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Klipsch THX ultra 2's do an excellent job of creating that cinema experience. Not much better for the price IMHO(used). My JBL's are the real deal and just makes things bigger and clearer, etc... All the speakers I have owned were more of a lateral move to the Klipsch until I went pro cinema.

Is that because of their dynamic ability?
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post #478 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Klipsch THX ultra 2's do an excellent job of creating that cinema experience. Not much better for the price IMHO(used). My JBL's are the real deal and just makes things bigger and clearer, etc... All the speakers I have owned were more of a lateral move to the Klipsch until I went pro cinema.

I was looking at the JBL 3677 before I lucked out with the used KL-650s. The 3677 is really the only pro cinema speaker that would fit in my converted living room HT! As far as subs, I'm still unsure what to do. The Klipsch THX subs list specs of 130db at 30hz, 122db at 20hz, and 112db at 15hz. I know that there are plenty of ID subs that can do this, so I won't be looking for Klipsch, too expensive. My Outlaws, good as they are, can't match those specs, so I'm on the lookout. What would you recommend, given that I can't hide my subs and they need at least some WAF? (no DTS-10!)
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post #479 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 10:24 AM
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I was looking at the JBL 3677 before I lucked out with the used KL-650s. The 3677 is really the only pro cinema speaker that would fit in my converted living room HT! As far as subs, I'm still unsure what to do. The Klipsch THX subs list specs of 130db at 30hz, 122db at 20hz, and 112db at 15hz. I know that there are plenty of ID subs that can do this, so I won't be looking for Klipsch, too expensive. My Outlaws, good as they are, can't match those specs, so I'm on the lookout. What would you recommend, given that I can't hide my subs and they need at least some WAF? (no DTS-10!)

My Quad Empires in my living room HT with over 6000+ cu ft open to other parts of the house is more then enough for anyone.
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post #480 of 1246 Old 02-12-2011, 10:29 AM
 
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My Quad Empires in my living room HT with over 6000+ cu ft open to other parts of the house is more then enough for anyone.

Well yeah, I guess 4 Empires would be! I can imagine they would crank in my room also, which is open as well. They certainly have the WAF, good looking subs! How are yours situated?
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