SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by kivyee View Post

One person's opinion based on actual experience is worth more than 10 opinions based on "reading stuff on the net".

really, have you read some of the opinions. Do you know most do not even have an EQ to accurately control the bass or have a reference point better then a $300 sub?? If people only want excitement about a product then those opinions are definitely going to work.

Fortunately, Its all choice

-some will want real science and education so that they can actually buy/design the best bass system possible for $X

-others will just want people to pat backs, jump up and down with excitement.

For me opinion online is pretty much worthless without science.

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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Good luck with what? How can you disagree with that statement? Have you heard the CHT sub? That's all I really want to know... have you heard the subwoofer?

I will say nope I have not heard the CHT but I have high sensitivity woofers and I can build a sealed box with the same slope.
What really matters is not if Product X has been heard, what matters is the reference point anyone has in the discussion. How many subs have you listened too over the years? How many drivers have you experimented with, how many different types of designs have you learned about?


Here is what's happening. 99.9% of all those listening to these new products are going to LOVE their high output > 30Hz. Peaked SPL gets everyone excited. Probably 5% of those owners have EQed their sub setup properly and when they actually do they realize all that monster clean ouptut is tamed....bummer

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post #722 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Seems like today had some good discussions. Every tiny bit of info really helps someone like me out. I am new to everything on avsforum.com. Right now I am in full subwoofer research mode after watching movies this past weekend for my first time ever with surround sound 5.0. I plan to do 7.2 very shortly.

It's just too bad that this great thread is being eaten up by pointless posts by floridapoolboy and people responding to him.

Floridapoolboy, really, you are literally ruining this thread. I hate to designate another post towards the matter, but frankly, in my diligence, I find you keep wasting my time with your silly posts which apperently causes people to respond for some reason. I lost several minutes of my day, today. Thanks. I have no problem reading your posts if they are informative. But on this thread they are almost completely nowhere close to informative. I can't believe I am actually posting a comment like this, because I normally try to be as respectful as I can. But damn, man, quit ruining this thread. I really like it.

I found this thread somewhat interesting back when it was supposed to be about enthusiasts listening to subs from multiple manufacturers. It long ago turned into an infomercial, due to it being commandeered by fans of a single manufacturer. Tell me friend, what is left to say about this thread, the evaluations are long since over, and no other subs are being discussed except those from you know who. Sorry to have ruined it for you, funny how people who are members of "that other" forum pop up so frequently here to complain! Good luck with your "search"...
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post #723 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:42 AM
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FPB, Maybe Epik and Rythmik owners just have a more laid back demeanor and feel there is no need to defend their purchase

Personally the Rythmik sub wins most categories (real measured SQ and looks are easily won).

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post #724 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

FPB, Maybe Epik and Rythmik owners just have a more laid back demeanor and feel there is no need to defend their purchase

It kind of goes two ways. There don't seem to be many Epik and Rythmik detractors.
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post #725 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It kind of goes two ways. There don't seem to be many Epik and Rythmik detractors.

Those companies are not cutting corners and trying to convince people otherwise with strong arm online tactics

Is there issues to discuss with their design though??

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post #726 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

FPB, Maybe Epik and Rythmik owners just have a more laid back demeanor and feel there is no need to defend their purchase

Personally the Rythmik sub wins most categories (real measured SQ and looks are easily won).

As I said previously, design a quality sub, build it well, provide good fit and finish, ship it well protected, price it competitively, and provide proof that it performs as well as or better than the other choices and it will sell.... without the need for fanboi hype, etc. I believe the majority of the sub manufacturers involved in this "shootout" fall into that category.
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post #727 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

really, have you read some of the opinions. Do you know most do not even have an EQ to accurately control the bass or have a reference point better then a $300 sub?? If people only want excitement about a product then those opinions are definitely going to work.

Fortunately, Its all choice

-some will want real science and education so that they can actually buy/design the best bass system possible for $X

-others will just want people to pat backs, jump up and down with excitement.

For me opinion online is pretty much worthless without science.



I will say nope I have not heard the CHT but I have high sensitivity woofers and I can build a sealed box with the same slope.
What really matters is not if Product X has been heard, what matters is the reference point anyone has in the discussion. How many subs have you listened too over the years? How many drivers have you experimented with, how many different types of designs have you learned about?


Here is what's happening. 99.9% of all those listening to these new products are going to LOVE their high output > 30Hz. Peaked SPL gets everyone excited. Probably 5% of those owners have EQed their sub setup properly and when they actually do they realize all that monster clean ouptut is tamed....bummer

Penn, I agree with what you mostly say but you don't know what woofer the CS subs use and they are not common pro drivers. Unlike many here I do have experience with ported, sealed, horn, pro horn with sealed chamber, and pro vented. I have EQ'd all of them(I a brain fart with the Danley) and I can tell you that the CS subs are very different than the normal pro subs I have used. My F3 is 38hz with a close mic. In room my pro subs dropped off like a rock at 20hz(ported) and 17 hz sealed back chamber horn and this includes my room gain. Now I am not saying it is the best driver I am just saying they can dig really deep with EQ and multiplr drivers and do it very well.
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post #728 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:56 AM
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Personally, I'm happier than a pig in sh%t with my dual Epik Empires, eq'd with an Anti-Mode 8033c, an SMS-1, & MultiEQ.
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post #729 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Those companies are not cutting corners and trying to convince people otherwise with strong arm online tactics

Is there issues to discuss with their design though??

Rythmik has been pretty well vetted. The Epik, who really knows? While I haven't heard of any complaints regarding quality, I also haven't seen any reliable testing either.
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post #730 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:58 AM
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Fpb you are the HIGHEST posting person on this thread with 53 posts. That is more than double what I've posted. YOU are the reason that CHT gets talked about so much because YOU keep jumping on this thread to bash them. You and Penngray and Bosso have something against Craig and you just cannot stand to hear anyone say anything positive about his products. You guys can't bash Craig without getting called on it so you try and bash the Shootout.

This is the second time you three have brought up the same lame arguments about "subjective comments" but the fact is that this shootout is only 5% subjective comments. So whether you agree with our methods or not is irrelevant since there is so much more about it.

You three have stated your arguments plenty of times. We get it. You don't like Craig, you don't want anyone to like Craig or his products. We would like to hear about Rythmik and Epik and eD and Hsu but YOU guys are the ones who keep bringing up CHT. If you have nothing helpful to add, please stop dumping on our thread and leave the conversation.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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post #731 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cneely8 View Post

I think part of the issue is the disturbing correlation between folks who used to hype the av123 stuff, and MANY of the same folks simply switching to the CHT camp and doing the same thing after av123 fell apart. I believe the reason you see the same reactions is that many of the folks posting are former pro-av123 people who used to do the same thing with that sham of a company, and the blind allegiance simply switched to one of the av123's business partners once av123 went down for good (or more correctly: partners-to be that were announced but never consummated because av123 flamed out too quickly and cutting ties was the wisest course).

I never owned AV123 gear.
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post #732 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

As I said previously, design a quality sub, build it well, provide good fit and finish, ship it well protected, price it competitively, and provide proof that it performs as well as or better than the other choices and it will sell.... without the need for fanboi hype, etc. I believe the majority of the sub manufacturers involved in this "shootout" fall into that category.

Not everyone needs your qualifications for a sub, just look at the DTS-10, seaton products, JTR, etc....
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post #733 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Penn, I agree with what you mostly say but you don't know what woofer the CS subs use and they are not common pro drivers. Unlike many here I do have experience with ported, sealed, horn, pro horn with sealed chamber, and pro vented. I have EQ'd all of them(I a brain fart with the Danley) and I can tell you that the CS subs are very different than the normal pro subs I have used. My F3 is 38hz with a close mic. In room my pro subs dropped off like a rock at 20hz(ported) and 17 hz sealed back chamber horn and this includes my room gain. Now I am not saying it is the best driver I am just saying they can dig really deep with EQ and multiplr drivers and do it very well.

I know enough about drivers to make a damn good educated guess about them

MK, Put JBL 18" woofers in a sealed design (8 of them since that is what you have now) and I will bet the cost of your entire HT that in a controlled listening test you can not tell the difference when everything is properly level matched. I already know you have never done a properly controlled test on any of this so I think you are not going to actually know the truth. You can spend 1000 hours doing this stuff loving it and if you do not do it right it your conclusions will still be wrong. I will say continue to say that your room is unique and your original sealed eD designs still measured the best when they were stacked (double bass array stuff). What you are doing is puting enough displacement in your room that the brand will NEVER matter. Its not that the CHT is good, its just the simple fact that 8 18" woofers is ALWAYS going to be good no matter the brand name.

There is nothing absolutely special about the 18" eminence drivers in the CS18.1. I have 50 PMs on this topic with many driver designers and this discussion goes back to when Craig talked about designing the CS18.1 and what was going in them.

If you guys want to aggressive defend the idea that there is some special driver in this box, please post the data and then we will show you how many other LIKE drivers exist that most of us have modelled or even owned.

You get that CS18.1 box to Ricci then all the numbers will be known. Heck I still think you should buy a WT3 kit and just get the T/S parameters now if anything you can prove my points wrong

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #734 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It kind of goes two ways. There don't seem to be many Epik and Rythmik detractors.

Or many of the JTR threads and such. I am sure they perform well but there have not been pro reviews either. Why don't people attack Jeff for his claims? There is personal things going on for sure. I just buy stuff that performs well no matter you sells them. All I know is that my bass is better than ever now so I will stick with it until I change again.
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post #735 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:04 AM
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I agree CHT has definitely had some growing pains. In the midst of it packaging, fit and fit finish continue to evolve. How's the performance though? From everything I've read there has been little change in drivers or amps or box design other than to address cosmetics. That says to me that CHT is happy from a performance standpoint since the beginning with their recipe, just had to work some kinks. I remember Craig stating that one of his original targets for the SS 18.2 driven by the Dayton amp was an LMS 5400 in a 4 cubic foot box driven by 3,000 watts. The guy has tested a LOT of subs surely he has acquired some point of reference to target something of that magnitude. I couldn't tell you as I don't have any of the subs..yet. I'm just saying based on performance how many people can legitimately say yay or nay based on actual hands on experience.
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post #736 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I know enough about drivers to make a damn good educated guess about them

MK, Put JBL 18" woofers in a sealed design (8 of them since that is what you have now) and I will bet the cost of your entire HT that in a controlled listening test you can not tell the difference when everything is properly level matched. I already know you have never done a properly controlled test on any of this so I think you are not going to actually know the truth. You can spend 1000 hours doing this stuff loving it and if you do not do it right it your conclusions will still be wrong. I will say continue to say that your room is unique and your original sealed eD designs still measured the best when they were stacked (double bass array stuff). What you are doing is puting enough displacement in your room that the brand will NEVER matter. Its not that the CHT is good, its just the simple fact that 8 18" woofers is ALWAYS going to be good no matter the brand name.

There is nothing absolutely special about the 18" eminence drivers in the CS18.1. I have 50 PMs on this topic with many driver designers and this discussion goes back to when Craig talked about designing the CS18.1 and what was going in them.

If you guys want to aggressive defend the idea that there is some special driver in this box, please post the data and then we will show you how many other LIKE drivers exist that most of us have modelled or even owned.

You get that CS18.1 box to Ricci then all the numbers will be known. Heck I still think you should buy a WT3 kit and just get the T/S parameters now if anything you can prove my points wrong

I never said they were special, I just said that they work great and I have had controlled tests in my room. I have EQ'd the pro horns, My vented subs, my Danleys, and my CS subs. I never eq'd the eD's.

The closest JBL driver I can think is the 2442 and it's FS is higher and X-max is much lower.
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post #737 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Fpb you are the HIGHEST posting person on this thread with 53 posts. That is more than double what I've posted. YOU are the reason that CHT gets talked about so much because YOU keep jumping on this thread to bash them. You and Penngray and Bosso have something against Craig and you just cannot stand to hear anyone say anything positive about his products. You guys can't bash Craig without getting called on it so you try and bash the Shootout.

This is the second time you three have brought up the same lame arguments about "subjective comments" but the fact is that this shootout is only 5% subjective comments. So whether you agree with our methods or not is irrelevant since there is so much more about it.

You three have stated your arguments plenty of times. We get it. You don't like Craig, you don't want anyone to like Craig or his products. We would like to hear about Rythmik and Epik and eD and Hsu but YOU guys are the ones who keep bringing up CHT. If you have nothing helpful to add, please stop dumping on our thread and leave the conversation.

I thought discussion Xmax and what compromises it brings to the table is a good online discussion. I didnt know its about defending ownership of any product?

I thought explaining how measurements and listening need to be properly controlled might be educational because it shows the serious pitfalls when done wrong.

If everything has to be back patting, I love that product posts then I apologize.

I still believe your posted review with the pictures was awesome minus the measurement issues.

FWIW, I have only talked about the CHT product which has nothing to do with any bashing of Craig personally.

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post #738 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:20 AM
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Craig seems to draw fire on this forum that seems way beyond anything he deserves. Whether it's due to his former association with MLS, with the growing pains his company is going through, or with his personality, it seems far out of proportion for whatever faux pas he's guilty of. Meanwhile, the products that he is putting out and planning to put out seem to fill a niche that not many others are attempting to fill.
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post #739 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:23 AM
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friendly suggestion:

we need to move on: this has been beat to death (you know what I mean)
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post #740 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Fpb you are the HIGHEST posting person on this thread with 53 posts. That is more than double what I've posted. YOU are the reason that CHT gets talked about so much because YOU keep jumping on this thread to bash them. You and Penngray and Bosso have something against Craig and you just cannot stand to hear anyone say anything positive about his products. You guys can't bash Craig without getting called on it so you try and bash the Shootout.

This is the second time you three have brought up the same lame arguments about "subjective comments" but the fact is that this shootout is only 5% subjective comments. So whether you agree with our methods or not is irrelevant since there is so much more about it.

You three have stated your arguments plenty of times. We get it. You don't like Craig, you don't want anyone to like Craig or his products. We would like to hear about Rythmik and Epik and eD and Hsu but YOU guys are the ones who keep bringing up CHT. If you have nothing helpful to add, please stop dumping on our thread and leave the conversation.

Dont' forget about me...dont' want to feel left out. LOL

on a serious note....I found something very interesting the other day. I unhooked the MFW-15 "turbo" kit I was borrowing from Sandbagger, and with no adjustments of any kind just left my A7S-450 hooked up. What I found was a much more detailed and deeper bass than with both subs. I'm not sure why, must be room issues or positioning, but it sure was interesting. Either that, or I just happened to get the room position of the A7S-450 exactly right by accident and the other sub was causing cancellations?
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post #741 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I thought discussion Xmax and what compromises it brings to the table is a good online discussion. I didnt know its about defending ownership of any product?

I thought explaining how measurements and listening need to be properly controlled might be educational because it shows the serious pitfalls when done wrong.

If everything has to be back patting, I love that product posts then I apologize.

I still believe your posted review with the pictures was awesome minus the measurement issues.

FWIW, I have only talked about the CHT product which has nothing to do with any bashing of Craig personally.

Penn, we have agreed and disagreed many times on this forum. I have EQ'd my CS subs so they have the flattest response I ever had for every seat(not perfect but 3 of my front 3 seats are perfect). I can tell you that my amps never clip, distort, or shut down when playing the most demanding scenes 10 db's hot from reference. I know I use lots of drivers but that is the point to a high perfromance theater. There is no one sub that will play as loud, clean, and low as I like anyways, not even the LMS 5400. I need multiples of anything. I am just saying that these outperform my eD system. They both were flat and both were 10 db's hot(why I always get such high spl numbers). I don't keep secrets. These are not LMS 5400's, they are a big bang for the buck subs. They are not 10mm x-max pro drivers like you think though. If they are then I would want to return them just because I was lied to even though they kick ass!! I doubt that Craig had lied to the masses.
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post #742 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Dont' forget about me...dont' want to feel left out. LOL

on a serious note....I found something very interesting the other day. I unhooked the MFW-15 "turbo" kit I was borrowing from Sandbagger, and with no adjustments of any kind just left my A7S-450 hooked up. What I found was a much more detailed and deeper bass than with both subs. I'm not sure why, must be room issues or positioning, but it sure was interesting. Either that, or I just happened to get the room position of the A7S-450 exactly right by accident and the other sub was causing cancellations?

I think you'll find that by combining two subs with different rolloff characteritics (ported vs sealed) you will get an interaction that is often unfavorable. The different rolloff characteristics will have different phase shifts which might cause the two not to blend well.
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post #743 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I think you'll find that by combining two subs with different rolloff characteritics (ported vs sealed) you will get an interaction that is often unfavorable. The different rolloff characteristics will have different phase shifts which might cause the two not to blend well.

Ya I thought of that as well. Whatever it was, it sure made a big difference taking one out fo the equation.
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post #744 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:40 AM
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Serious Question...

I'm not a numbers person, I don't know jack about measurements...all I know is subjectively how something sounds.

Is the push for independent testing for all of these smaller ID companies just so you can have a baseline on numbers to evaluate subs?

Isn't it just as easy to read review threads and HT threads and see what people are using, have a similar room setup, and like?

I guess I just don't get where all the arguments stem from when in my opinion sound is so subjective.....

I bought mine just based on reviews....and as you can see I've only recently joined online forums... I could have easily bought any other ID manufacturer and probably would have been happy...


On another note....is it really that practical to have matching subs? Or if I end up doing a DIY project with some MFW drivers instead of getting another matched sub to my current setup, and I properly EQ, will the sound be not as good as getting matched products?

-Greg

 



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post #745 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:56 AM
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Serious Question...

I'm not a numbers person, I don't know jack about measurements...all I know is subjectively how something sounds.

Is the push for independent testing for all of these smaller ID companies just so you can have a baseline on numbers to evaluate subs?

Isn't it just as easy to read review threads and HT threads and see what people are using, have a similar room setup, and like?

I guess I just don't get where all the arguments stem from when in my opinion sound is so subjective.....

I bought mine just based on reviews....and as you can see I've only recently joined online forums... I could have easily bought any other ID manufacturer and probably would have been happy...


On another note....is it really that practical to have matching subs? Or if I end up doing a DIY project with some MFW drivers instead of getting another matched sub to my current setup, and I properly EQ, will the sound be not as good as getting matched products?

The problem is if all the folks who love some sub have a similar taste that is different from mine (say they want big mid-bass slam - - whether they articulate or even realize it or not) I can't really tell too much. There are a few posters around here whose experience (including testing) I would generally trust to provide reasonably good insight into a particular sub. But while I could clearly tell when my non Eqed sub had a big booost around 80 hz IIRC, (which I did not like) I would not say that I have direct experience with a properly calibrated system with flat response down to 20 Hz or below, so my subjective comments are a little like a color blind person commenting on a painting. Those of us without experience to compare a really good (objectively) system don't necessarily know what were missing, and I have to take those comments with a grain of salt.
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post #746 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 09:40 AM
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My particular interest in this thread at this point in time is coming to an understanding why the measured close mic'd response of the CHT sub is not, according to Bosso, that of a sealed sub given that CHT stated no boost was applied. To my uneducated eyes it seems particulary free of noise artifacts and quite smooth. I think maybe it's a bit too smooth? The reply by Edge, "I understand that you are not agreeing with his close mic response readings.", appears to paint this discrepency as just two sides quibbling over data that has an inherent variability. However sealed systems as I understand it, have a predictable behavior due to their nature and as such the measurements must reflect it. If it doesn't then the discrepency needs to be addressed. After all, how is it that a sealed system which is supposed to be second order measures like a third order? All companies should take accountability over the information that they publish and if it's wrong then it behooves them to offer the public an explanation.

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post #747 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 09:43 AM
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Hey guys.
I am looking to upgrade from my Velo SPL-1000r to dual 12 inch subs for more impact, and better balance. I noticed that there are several internet based companies with very reasonable prices that have them available.

I am a true hobbyist, not an expert. I am technical, but not in the audio space. I would just like to get some opinions before I pull the trigger.

Let me know what you think.
And, take it from me, there's plenty of fighting going on elsewhere....

Bill in Maryland
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post #748 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

My particular interest in this thread at this point in time is coming to an understanding why the measured close mic'd response of the CHT sub is not, according to Bosso, that of a sealed sub given that CHT stated no boost was applied. To my uneducated eyes it seems particulary free of noise artifacts and quite smooth. I think maybe it's a bit too smooth? The reply by Edge, "I understand that you are not agreeing with his close mic response readings.", appears to paint this discrepency as just two sides quibbling over data that has an inherent variability. However sealed systems as I understand it, have a predictable behavior due to their nature and as such the measurements must reflect it. If it doesn't then the discrepency needs to be addressed. After all, how is it that a sealed system which is supposed to be second order measures like a third order? All companies should take accountability over the information that they publish and if it's wrong then it behooves them to offer the public an explanation.

To my knowledge the only other person so far that has attempted to take a close mic measurement is MKtheater. He may be able to share some of his results but I believe he has already stated that his measured F3 was 38hz?

Like I said before, we are open to independent measurements. Craig has already approached Ricci before and he has stated he has a bit on his plate so it may take time before he has a window to do a test if at all. I believe a message was sent out to another engineer yesterday. Please be patient with us and we will be happy to keep everyone in the loop.

Jeremy
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post #749 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 11:04 AM
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Like I said before, we are open to independent measurements. Craig has already approached Ricci before and he has stated he has a bit on his plate so it may take time before he has a window to do a test if at all. I believe a message was sent out to another engineer yesterday. Please be patient with us and we will be happy to keep everyone in the loop.

Actually...I have talked briefly with Craig about some things and he stated something to the effect that CHT may send a unit a bit later in the year. To which I replied great I won't be ready to go forward for a new round of testing until late April or May anyway. I would be happy to test whatever you guys are willing to send.


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post #750 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 11:22 AM
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Actually...I have talked briefly with Craig about some things and he stated something to the effect that CHT may send a unit a bit later in the year. To which I replied great I won't be ready to go forward for a new round of testing until late April or May anyway. I would be happy to test whatever you guys are willing to send.

Ricci, this is very much appreciated!

Jeremy
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