SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

When are you gonna sell me that sub.....?

Did I not post once that you need a road trip north to my place?

What sub to do you want? How about a AV15X + 2PR in a 4 cuft box + LT/1300?? I have extras sitting around.

I will try and give it a decent finish

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post #782 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Did I not post once that you need a road trip north to my place?

What sub to do you want? How about a AV15X + 2PR in a 4 cuft box + LT/1300?? I have extras sitting around.

I will try and give it a decent finish

I just may take you up on that offer. Hey, got any graphs to back up those performance claims?
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post #783 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post


I will try and give it a decent finish

Nice hidden jab at CHT products...

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #784 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I just may take you up on that offer. Hey, got any graphs to back up those performance claims?

I like that you ask for graphs for everything. That shows a lack of bias, even if you've been accused of CHT bashing.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #785 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:42 PM
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This thread is unreal.

But I'm reading.

Since this thread has mega-readership-traffic...

Bosso, PennGray, other bassheads:

If I do that dual oppossed DIY sealed sub project, with 4-MFW-15 drivers and a 10 cubicft box, will it outshoot a CHT CS-18.2 in theory??

And how would it compare to a Seaton Submersive HP?


Those are the 3 subs I'm thinking of adding to round out my room.


Thanks guys, and I'm glad everyone is so positive around here!

-Greg

 



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post #786 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Homework? You like facts? Then be honest... personal problems are exactly why you and the other detractors follow these threads so closely. You and I have discussed this off the boards, I know the truth behind all of this. It isn't about speakers at all.

CHT has been making strides towards continuous improvements, been completely transparent about it, and is working towards third party testing. Will that be enough for you?

We'll wait and see.

Even if personality problems are the reason, that doesn't equate to the comments being without substance or merit. I support the efforts to embrace comprehensive third party testing, but that will not address the large discrepancies between the close mic'd measurement and the models. If CC is the person responsible for both then he ought to be able to dispassionately explain this. If the explanations are challenged, then rebut them but by all means the agenda and 'they hate me' card explanations as you're offering are wearing thin.

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post #787 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

This thread is unreal.

But I'm reading.

Since this thread has mega-readership-traffic...

Bosso, PennGray, other bassheads:

If I do that dual oppossed DIY sealed sub project, with 4-MFW-15 drivers and a 10 cubicft box, will it outshoot a CHT CS-18.2 in theory??

And how would it compare to a Seaton Submersive HP?


Those are the 3 subs I'm thinking of adding to round out my room.


Thanks guys, and I'm glad everyone is so positive around here!

I'll chime in as "other basshead".

The 4 MFW-15 drivers would be a heck of a sub. We know that piling on that particular 15" driver yields good results, and this would seem to cost the least amount of $$$ on the surface. It may cost more to try and get them to play nice with what you already have.

The SubMersive is a very good, but expensive solution, especially in light of a bass management system if needed.

The CS18.2 would be the easiest to integrate although not as much fun as the DIY woofer, I know you like to build stuff.

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post #788 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 05:55 PM
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you guys ever ponder how consumers got by, back when things were different??

we wanted something...and on a hunch or based on past experience, or based on what the local corner store had in stock...we bought it. And generally we were happy, for the most part.

Granted, it's easier to be happy when you don't know or haven't experienced what is out there.

There's the study of the science...but then a lot of this forum seems to be just obscessing over a purchase decision for way too long, for fear of not picking the best one.

and...I'll admit I'm as guilty as anyone.

Geez for the time some folks spend on here they could have gotten a 2nd job at the local wally world and made enough money to buy "one of each".
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post #789 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

I'll chime in as "other basshead".

The 4 MFW-15 drivers would be a heck of a sub. We know that piling on that particular 15" driver yields good results, and this would seem to cost the least amount of $$$ on the surface. It may cost more to try and get them to play nice with what you already have.
The SubMersive is a very good, but expensive solution, especially in light of a bass management system if needed.

The CS18.2 would be the easiest to integrate although not as much fun as the DIY woofer, I know you like to build stuff.

This project would have a "Sandbagger-twist" on it. I'd get a custom amp(s) from him so pretty much plug and play. Has been some discussion on the seaton forum....that I'm following. It will be similar but different from the avsthread build on these.

-Greg

 



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post #790 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

This project would have a "Sandbagger-twist" on it. I'd get a custom amp(s) from him so pretty much plug and play. Has been some discussion on the seaton forum....that I'm following. It will be similar but different from the avsthread build on these.

Oh yeah, I read this last night. 4 subs and the SA1000 amp. Sounds like fun.

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post #791 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

To the poster who disappeared; Yes, I always welcome dual-opposed sealed EQ'd subwoofers to the market with open arms. Ask Seaton, he'll co-sign that. That has nothing to do with errant data as a marketing ploy followed by mud slinging.

You asked where's my beef after seeing the measurement you posted?

Lets scale and overlay it onto the modeled response and the Chase close-mic response:



Does this need further explanation?

Bosso

Is the blue line the tumult sub that was posted earlier? Since CHT says the F3 is about 35hz, how would that change the graph compared to the sim of F3=60hz? Would the shape of the graph be the same and just be moved to the left? Also, CHT says there is some EQ built into the Dayton amp. Could that be part of why their close-mic graph does not match the sim?

-Mike
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post #792 of 1257 Old 03-09-2011, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Did I not post once that you need a road trip north to my place?

What sub to do you want? How about a AV15X + 2PR in a 4 cuft box + LT/1300?? I have extras sitting around.

I will try and give it a decent finish

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Nice hidden jab at CHT products...

If you were familiar with Penn's writings over the years, you'd have known that he has personally struggled with the finish quality of the various projects he's undertaken. Through personal effort, trial and error, he's actually gotten pretty good at it. He's also not been shy in posting pictures of his builds. I myself have chided Penn some time back and have busted his balls on some of his builds. Penn's not some prima donna though who can't stand criticism so he takes the banter in stride. So, what you perceive to be a hidden jab at CHT products, I see as Penn poking a bit of fun at himself.

But you know, CHT products aren't going to get better looking and up to acceptable commercially produced standards by not talking about it. Or by being enamored by the performance. Or by saying the finish isn't important because they're behind a screen. Or by saying you can't tell unless you're up close. Or by trivializing defects like nail holes and visible plywood grain. Or by saying their Made in America.

Problems such as have been exhibited have the very real consequence of signficantly diminishing the value of the products on the retail market. So, if you're looking to sell your CHT product, because of the sundry cosmetic blems, you can expect less. There's a lot of folks here who look to upgrade or change out their systems and having a product that has blems and defects doesn't help their money situation. If CHT wants to stop the talk then figure out how to do the job right and then figure out how to package and ship it. Fans of the company do no favor by trivializing matters, playing the blame shifting game, saying things are improving, or just not talking about it. Instead the fans then become enablers.

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post #793 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Ricci, this is great. Thanks for taking the time to test as it has been too long for the more recent subs to get tested under the same conditions and from the same person with the same equipment. Maybe I don't have to send you my sub after all which is much better for me!

Actually, I think it would still be a great idea to have your sub tested as well to check for consistency in the line as well (if possible). I've already PM'd Ricci noting I'd be willing to foot a good sum of cash to have a few subs tested and it could go towards shipping costs.

Though, if you took the close mic graph that's a great start towards understanding the naked frequency response. I assume the amp used has not been internally tweaked at all? I'm not overly familiar with the CHT subs.

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #794 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Did I not post once that you need a road trip north to my place?

What sub to do you want? How about a AV15X + 2PR in a 4 cuft box + LT/1300?? I have extras sitting around.

I will try and give it a decent finish

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I just may take you up on that offer. Hey, got any graphs to back up those performance claims?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I like that you ask for graphs for everything. That shows a lack of bias, even if you've been accused of CHT bashing.

Cool.

Penn, just make sure you have a pro-review for that exact sub as well. I hear its a no-go without it.

In all seriousness though, I nurse some jealousy for all you DIY people. Maybe in some future time I'll get the space, tools, skill, etc..

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Holy smokes. A simple question turned into a buck wild display of thoughts, gazillion graphs, multiple interpretations, philosophies, and overall mayhem!!
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post #795 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 05:00 AM
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BTW, Lilgator posted a close mic in that CHT forum someone linked above...


 

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post #796 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

If you were familiar with Penn's writings over the years, you'd have known that he has personally struggled with the finish quality of the various projects he's undertaken. Through personal effort, trial and error, he's actually gotten pretty good at it. He's also not been shy in posting pictures of his builds. I myself have chided Penn some time back and have busted his balls on some of his builds. Penn's not some prima donna though who can't stand criticism so he takes the banter in stride. So, what you perceive to be a hidden jab at CHT products, I see as Penn poking a bit of fun at himself.

Thanks Chu

I was poking fun at myself and not really CHT, few in this thread follow much of what goes on in other parts of the forum.

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post #797 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 05:14 AM
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Thanks Chu

I was poking fun at myself and not really CHT, few in this thread follow much of what goes on in other parts of the forum.


Speaking of that. I just posted this in another thread but I was wondering, since I do spend most of my time in the audio side, whether the video side of AVS is like a parallel universe to here with all the same arguments but different gear and screen-names.

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post #798 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 05:55 AM
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I think there is more differing science involved with subwoofers and speakers. They can be designed to very difference.

I never considered video to have much differential in design. The display either works and shows 1080p/1080i/720p or whatever its specs says or it does not.

Lets just say that Displays are a dime a dozen and the differences from top to bottom is no where near the difference that exist with different subwoofers.

Note: audio equipment (AVRs, Pre/Pros, Amps) are very similar to displays in the fact that people will argue mountains of differences 24/7 without be able to post a stitch of measurable evidence to support those claims. If someone does not have data, they do not have a valid conclusion IMO.

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post #799 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So, if you're looking to sell your CHT product, because of the sundry cosmetic blems, you can expect less. There's a lot of folks here who look to upgrade or change out their systems and having a product that has blems and defects doesn't help their money situation.

Why do you care at all???? You don't even own these speakers, lol. It would be the same as me going onto every Wilson Audio thread and posting continuously how they are overpriced, regardless of how nice the finish.

But I don't because I would look foolish and more importantly I care very little how someone spends their own money.

CHT owners and prospective buyers need you no more than Wilson owners and prospective buyers need me.

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post #800 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

If the explanations are challenged, then rebut them but by all means the agenda and 'they hate me' card explanations as you're offering are wearing thin.

When all you have is a hammer....

Someone wanna get the big guy on this thread so he can simply, with one post, clear up this misconception people have on the graphs?

Seems like a very fact-based and easy thing to do if the earlier suggestions of:
  • he doesn't understand it
  • he understands but hopes others don't

aren't correct.

The longer this goes without a response from the one who created the graphs in question, the more likely it seems that one of those bullets is true. They are the only reasons I can think of for why one would ignore the graph discrepancy when the integrity of the brand is at stake, especially for a hopeful startup.
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post #801 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Why do you care at all???? You don't even own these speakers, lol. It would be the same as me going onto every Wilson Audio thread and posting continuously how they are overpriced, regardless of how nice the finish.

But I don't because I would look foolish and more importantly I care very little how someone spends their own money.

CHT owners and prospective buyers need you no more than Wilson owners and prospective buyers need me.

This is not a CHT owners thread

HINT: that is what OWNER threads are for, they are too allow owners to discuss their products. Create that thread and keep all discussion in it and there is little need to banter "You don't own these speakers"

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post #802 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cneely8 View Post


When all you have is a hammer....

Someone wanna get the big guy on this thread so he can simply, with one post, clear up this misconception people have on the graphs?

Seems like a very fact-based and easy thing to do if the earlier suggestions of:
[*]he doesn't understand it[*]he understands but hopes others don't


aren't correct.

The longer this goes without a response from the one who created the graphs in question, the more likely it seems that one of those bullets is true. They are the only reasons I can think of for why one would ignore the graph discrepancy when the integrity of the brand is at stake, especially for a hopeful startup.

I, and others, have asked for FR graphs or polars over on the JTR thread. Those requests are completely ignored, yet I don't see anyone care. Odd, no?

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post #803 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:06 AM
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This is not a CHT owners thread

HINT: that is what OWNER threads are for, they are too allow owners to discuss their products.

Well, you're all in the owners threads with the exact same comments Penn

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post #804 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:08 AM
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Well, you're all in the owners threads with the exact same comments Penn

What owner threads are those?

If it does not have the proper heading like most owner threads then its just a discussion thread.

A thread starting with "I love my new sub" is not an owners thread.

There is a proper format to the forum. There is a reason for OFFICIAL owners threads is so we do not have 10 silly "I Love my new sub" threads

What is funny is that ever other sub manufacturer has an OFFICIAL thread, what is wrong with CHT having an Owners thread?? JL owners keep all their discussion in their official thread because they do not want the common "Your sub is not great for HT" comments.

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post #805 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I, and others, have asked for FR graphs or polars over on the JTR thread. Those requests are completely ignored, yet I don't see anyone care. Odd, no?

Polars on a subwoofer?

I would love to see polars on the JTR speakers though.

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post #806 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I, and others, have asked for FR graphs or polars over on the JTR thread. Those requests are completely ignored, yet I don't see anyone care. Odd, no?

I don't understand this post-

Are you implying the JTR guys are lying too?

Or that they are also posting conflicting graphs and refuse to engage when called on it?

If so, yeah, that's just as bad as the CHT denial/deflect behavior we're discussing here. Thanks for calling it out, others may not know it's happening.
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post #807 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

This is not a CHT owners thread

HINT: that is what OWNER threads are for, they are too allow owners to discuss their products. Create that thread and keep all discussion in it and there is little need to banter "You don't own these speakers"

+1! An owners thread would make it more difficult to attract potential new customers, since it would be by definition set up for existing owners. By using "shootout" threads and the like and having people continuously bump them to the top the product name keeps getting pushed. Classic ID marketing strategy.

Of course, by posting this i've bumped the name to the top as well.....you're welcome!
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post #808 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Why do you care at all???? You don't even own these speakers, lol. It would be the same as me going onto every Wilson Audio thread and posting continuously how they are overpriced, regardless of how nice the finish.

Since when does owning a product preclude one from commenting? I received the same kind of comments when hammering Humbly Bumbly. But let's turn this around? You own one or more of their products so what is it that compels you to constantly post how you like them? Why have you not provided an accurate description or photos of their appearance? For that matter, why has CHT been remiss in providing accurate and representative pictures on their website instead of those low res thumbnail?

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But I don't because I would look foolish and more importantly I care very little how someone spends their own money.

But you do care because you post in threads that serve to encourage folks to consider their products without providing an accurate perspective. BTW, I have posted in Wilson threads. As to whether they're overpriced depends upon your disposable income.
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CHT owners and prospective buyers need you no more than Wilson owners and prospective buyers need me.

In the context of this particular thread and matter of measurement discrepancies, they could use your voice. Why is it silent?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #809 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I, and others, have asked for FR graphs or polars over on the JTR thread. Those requests are completely ignored, yet I don't see anyone care. Odd, no?

Perhaps the information or at least some of it exists. Have you called JTR?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #810 of 1257 Old 03-10-2011, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

CHT owners and prospective buyers need you no more than Wilson owners and prospective buyers need me.

Or no more than prospective av123 buyer's needed him?

That's what the av123 guys all said to him before it was clear who had been telling the truth after all.

TGFC (Thank Goodness For Chu!).

He severely limited the number of victims and the damage done by that criminal company and the people that vehemently defended it.
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