SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1253 Old 07-04-2011, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

The second paragraph (or is it the first run-on sentence?) states that the SPL results are useless as they relate to any of the subs used in the shootout. The second quote states that the the Frequency Response Magnitude created by Madaeel and Below90hz is useful because it shows relative responses.

Given the environment of testing is the same for all the subs, the peak SPL results also show useful information about relative peak SPL. It is not useless (a subjective finding though being sold as fact) and the above statement is incorrect.

Edited because I don't want to speak for Bosso.

If I understand correctly, what Bosso is saying is that What I took from Bosso's comments is that the frequency responses are useful only in comparison to each other because the room should effect each sub in a similar way. The peak SPL readings will be dominated by the spectral content of the clip and how it relates to the frequency response of each sub. If a clip is dominated by content near 40hz, the sub that has the highest response at 40hz will have the highest SPL for that clip. The different frequency responses will also make a difference in the subjective sound quality of the subs. Without analyzing the content of each clip and relating it to the response of each sub, it is difficult to make conclusions about the peak SPL readings.

I understand many people won't EQ their sub and the brothers wanted to test the subs in a "typical" situation, but to really understand the performance of the subs relative to each other, peak SPL readings alone are not enough. Useless is a strong word and maybe Bosso should have added a condition. Peak SPL readings alone are useless to determine which sub can accurately reproduce a specific scene at the highest playback level. They are not useless to determine which sub can playback a scene at the highest level irregardless of accuracy and frequency content.

-Mike
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post #1082 of 1253 Old 07-04-2011, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

If I understand correctly, what Bosso is saying is that the frequency responses are useful only in comparison to each other because the room should effect each sub in a similar way. The peak SPL readings will be dominated by the spectral content of the clip and how it relates to the frequency response of each sub. If a clip is dominated by content near 40hz, the sub that has the highest response at 40hz will have the highest SPL for that clip. The different frequency responses will also make a difference in the subjective sound quality of the subs. Without analyzing the content of each clip and relating it to the response of each sub, it is difficult to make conclusions about the peak SPL readings.

I understand many people won't EQ their sub and the brothers wanted to test the subs in a "typical" situation, but to really understand the performance of the subs relative to each other, peak SPL readings alone are not enough. Useless is a strong word and maybe Bosso should have added a condition. Peak SPL readings alone are useless to determine which sub can accurately reproduce a specific scene at the highest playback level. They are not useless to determine which sub can playback a scene at the highest level irregardless of accuracy and frequency content.

-Mike

Never said that "Peak SPL Readings" alone are not enough. No disagreement.
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The listening results and the peak SPL results are pretty much useless as they relate to any of the subs used in the shootout.

This statement remains incorrect. Peak SPL results are useful from a relative standpoint when the testing is done in a relatively static environment. Even imperfect data has value (err... usefulness) in the absence of perfect data.

It's good to fact-check the "experts" around here, especially when the expertise they convey is done with (IMO) an attempt to discredit and spoken without restrictions or exceptions. It allows the "uninformed" (myself by admittance) to recognize who should be a trusted source, and who should not.

...and if it's OK with everyone else (which it won't be), I'd like to not get into mind-reading or loose intpretations of other's comments. Most of us are adults who can speak for themselvesa and can comment if they wish to.
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post #1083 of 1253 Old 07-04-2011, 03:06 PM
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Bosso the problem I have with your accusations against CHT is that you do the EXACT same thing you accuse Craig of.

For example, the chart you just posted on the previous page based on our shootout FR's? - you've changed the wording to say that the CS18.1 FR curve is "no boost". That is misleading. You know full well that we labeled it "unequalized" and a guy as smart as you knows the difference. We did not boost the CS18.1 down at 25 or 20hz.

Even if we did, you are also smart enough to know that boosting down low would make it harder to keep up with the A7s-450's output over the 8 pieces of test material, not easier and so in no way was ANY of these subs given an unfair advantage over the other.

You also keep pointing to our FR chart as "proof" of some sort of specification exaggeration on CHT's part, reproducing them to make it APPEAR as if the CS18.1 has no bottom end. You know full well that FR's move parallel, and its the shape of the curve that matters most, not where it plots on the chart. So let's move the FR's to line up on 25hz (maybe I should've plotted them this way in the first place) so we can see a clear picture of how each sub rolls off after 25hz:



Between 25-20hz, yessir, there's no doubt the CS18.1 by far drops the most. BUT, none of these manufacturers rated their sub's FR flatness to 25hz, it was 22hz and below. So let's look at 20hz to 15hz. The CS18.1 does the best - by far. And from 22hz to 15hz the A7s-450 and CS18.1 are just about the same. There's no valid reason for singling any of these companies out for shortcomings that are common to any sub placed in a real-world listening environment. That is the whole point of this shootout. Each sub has a right to be here. Each one has a valid reason to be somebody's "best sub". When someone says "Hey I picked Sub-X based on your shootout, thanks guys" we say "Excellent choice." And its true every time.

Anywho, I appreciate that this time around you've been civil and have not used argumentative language. However, by now we've beat this dead horse into a paste and spread it on crackers. Can we please just agree to disagree on some things and move on?

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post #1084 of 1253 Old 07-04-2011, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Ok, well I got the wife to agree on the Epik Empire. 897 shipped to my house!

I was going to order the Legend, but then he knocked 150 off the price of the Empire...too hard to pass up. I can't wait to get that thing setup

I also want to hear what it was like in his basement!
Ciao!

In a word: AWESOME.

Watched a few demo scenes from Cloverfield and Transformers. From 12ft away the Empire was able to shake my couch. "So what?" you say. "Didn't your A7s-450 do the same? So while transferring 12ft thru a concrete basement slab is pretty impressive, its not unheard of."

And I reply "True, but you must remember the Empire is inert. So when it shakes the walls and couch, its doing it thru pure SPLs alone!"

So again I say: AWESOME.

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post #1085 of 1253 Old 07-04-2011, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Bosso the problem I have with your accusations against CHT is that you do the EXACT same thing you accuse Craig of.

For example, the chart you just posted on the previous page based on our shootout FR's? - you've changed the wording to say that the CS18.1 FR curve is "no boost". That is misleading. You know full well that we labeled it "unequalized" and a guy as smart as you knows the difference. We did not boost the CS18.1 down at 25 or 20hz.

Even if we did, you are also smart enough to know that boosting down low would make it harder to keep up with the A7s-450's output over the 8 pieces of test material, not easier and so in no way was ANY of these subs given an unfair advantage over the other.

You also keep pointing to our FR chart as "proof" of some sort of specification exaggeration on CHT's part, reproducing them to make it APPEAR as if the CS18.1 has no bottom end. You know full well that FR's move parallel, and its the shape of the curve that matters most, not where it plots on the chart. So let's move the FR's to line up on 25hz (maybe I should've plotted them this way in the first place) so we can see a clear picture of how each sub rolls off after 25hz:



Between 25-20hz, yessir, there's no doubt the CS18.1 by far drops the most. BUT, none of these manufacturers rated their sub's FR flatness to 25hz, it was 22hz and below. So let's look at 20hz to 15hz. The CS18.1 does the best - by far. And from 22hz to 15hz the A7s-450 and CS18.1 are just about the same. There's no valid reason for singling any of these companies out for shortcomings that are common to any sub placed in a real-world listening environment. That is the whole point of this shootout. Each sub has a right to be here. Each one has a valid reason to be somebody's "best sub". When someone says "Hey I picked Sub-X based on your shootout, thanks guys" we say "Excellent choice." And its true every time.

Anywho, I appreciate that this time around you've been civil and have not used argumentative language. However, by now we've beat this dead horse into a paste and spread it on crackers. Can we please just agree to disagree on some things and move on?

I'm confused what you did to that graph. The CS didn't measure that high on your first graph. At 25hz it was shown to be 10db lower than the FV15.
Actually both the eD and CS didn't come close to the others at 25hz.

Maybe i'm missing the point? You shifted the graph to show something that didn't happen. Are you trying to show what it would look like had it been able to keep up?

Jim
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post #1086 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Bosso the problem I have with your accusations against CHT is that you do the EXACT same thing you accuse Craig of.

For example, the chart you just posted on the previous page based on our shootout FR's? - you've changed the wording to say that the CS18.1 FR curve is "no boost". That is misleading. You know full well that we labeled it "unequalized" and a guy as smart as you knows the difference. We did not boost the CS18.1 down at 25 or 20hz.

Even if we did, you are also smart enough to know that boosting down low would make it harder to keep up with the A7s-450's output over the 8 pieces of test material, not easier and so in no way was ANY of these subs given an unfair advantage over the other.

If you give the posted graph more than a cursory glance, you'll count 6 traces for 5 subs. The chase traces on my graph are in red. The solid trace is boost on and the dashed trace is boost off. These are directly from your posted results and you clearly said you used boost on for the shootout.

Quote:


You also keep pointing to our FR chart as "proof" of some sort of specification exaggeration on CHT's part, reproducing them to make it APPEAR as if the CS18.1 has no bottom end. You know full well that FR's move parallel, and its the shape of the curve that matters most, not where it plots on the chart. So let's move the FR's to line up on 25hz (maybe I should've plotted them this way in the first place) so we can see a clear picture of how each sub rolls off after 25hz:



Between 25-20hz, yessir, there's no doubt the CS18.1 by far drops the most. BUT, none of these manufacturers rated their sub's FR flatness to 25hz, it was 22hz and below. So let's look at 20hz to 15hz. The CS18.1 does the best - by far. And from 22hz to 15hz the A7s-450 and CS18.1 are just about the same. There's no valid reason for singling any of these companies out for shortcomings that are common to any sub placed in a real-world listening environment. That is the whole point of this shootout. Each sub has a right to be here. Each one has a valid reason to be somebody's "best sub". When someone says "Hey I picked Sub-X based on your shootout, thanks guys" we say "Excellent choice." And its true every time.

Anywho, I appreciate that this time around you've been civil and have not used argumentative language. However, by now we've beat this dead horse into a paste and spread it on crackers. Can we please just agree to disagree on some things and move on?

You (and everyone else in the HT world) calibrated the subs equally by using the AVRs calibration tone, which is a tone made up of limited band pink noise from 30-100 Hz, not a 25 Hz sine tone, as your composite graph cited here would reflect. So, your maximum output will stay relative to that calibration and the in-room response.

IOW, as your graph shows, the chase sub would have to have been calibrated 6-7dB hot vs the other subs in order for your point about extension to hold water. Even if it were, the maximum peak output performance during movie scenes would not have changed, keeping the output of the chase sub below 25 Hz lower than the other subs.

I've made no accusations, only pointed out the facts of the matter, as I always have, regardless of the sub or subs being discussed. I'm terribly sorry you see my posts as attacks and/or accusations. I've gone above and beyond to appease that prejudice, and quite frankly, I don't know what more I need to do.

I responded to a rather flippant and condescending post by someone in this thread in which that someone errantly referred to a post of mine from another thread. Although I'll certainly get over it, it hurts to think that you have chosen to give that person's post a complete pass while labeling my clarifying response as accusatory.

Bosso
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post #1087 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

In a word: AWESOME.

Watched a few demo scenes from Cloverfield and Transformers. From 12ft away the Empire was able to shake my couch. "So what?" you say. "Didn't your A7s-450 do the same? So while transferring 12ft thru a concrete basement slab is pretty impressive, its not unheard of."

And I reply "True, but you must remember the Empire is inert. So when it shakes the walls and couch, its doing it thru pure SPLs alone!"

So again I say: AWESOME.

Oh man, I just cannot wait, you guys are killing me! I plan to post impressions when I get her setup mid/late next week!
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post #1088 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 01:01 PM
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Had my father in law over yesterday and played the scene in Terminator Salvation where the giant robot (the one with the motorcycles that roll down from it) at a bit less than reference levels.

My CHT subs literally ran the poor guy out of the room.
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post #1089 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

In a word: AWESOME.

Watched a few demo scenes from Cloverfield and Transformers. From 12ft away the Empire was able to shake my couch. "So what?" you say. "Didn't your A7s-450 do the same? So while transferring 12ft thru a concrete basement slab is pretty impressive, its not unheard of."

And I reply "True, but you must remember the Empire is inert. So when it shakes the walls and couch, its doing it thru pure SPLs alone!"

So again I say: AWESOME.

That concrete slab is inert too...so any other sub on that slab would be doing the shaking also via SPL alone.

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post #1090 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

That concrete slab is inert too...so any other sub on that slab would be doing the shaking also via SPL alone.

Huh. Never thought of that. Well kudos to the A7s-450 as well. Thanks for the correction.

BUT...

In Adam's room there IS without question transference thru the floor joists/subfloor, etc. And the Empire shakes the couch as much as any of the subs, by SPLs alone. ...I think. Darn it cschang! Now you got me doubting myself!

Bosso - I'll PM you then.

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post #1091 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

I understand many people won't EQ their sub and the brothers wanted to test the subs in a "typical" situation, but to really understand the performance of the subs relative to each other, peak SPL readings alone are not enough.

-Mike

Never did understand this part. I would imagine the vast majority of consumers purchasing subs (in particular, ID Subs) are using Audyssey, YPAO or MCACC to EQ their responses (at the very least).

It's interesting that the subjective/objective "issue" is still being discussed and misunderstood.

 

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post #1092 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

That concrete slab is inert too...so any other sub on that slab would be doing the shaking also via SPL alone.

BUT...that floor also transfers vibrations to the couch due to that heavily vibrating sub...the means the Empire is shaking the couch with SPL alone while the others are also adding shake to it with the vibrations coming through the floor. Even if just a tiny bit.
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post #1093 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Huh. Never thought of that. Well kudos to the A7s-450 as well. Thanks for the correction.

BUT...

In Adam's room there IS without question transference thru the floor joists/subfloor, etc. And the Empire shakes the couch as much as any of the subs, by SPLs alone. ...I think. Darn it cschang! Now you got me doubting myself!

The bottomline is...if the house/room is well constructed, little "shaking" is cause by the physical sub to floor contact. Whatever is happening throughout the room is also being transferred to/through the floor. Placing a glass/bowl of water on the subs will show you how much shaking they are actually doing.

The fact that Empire doesn't have higher SPL readings relative to the other subs is evidence of this.

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post #1094 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

BUT...that floor also transfers vibrations to the couch due to that heavily vibrating sub...the means the Empire is shaking the couch with SPL alone while the others are also adding shake to it with the vibrations coming through the floor. Even if just a tiny bit.

If the floor is a concrete slab...than any sub is doing its work via SPL alone when placed on it. A concrete slab does not vibrate.

Again..the Empire doesn't generally have higher SPL's....so it has no reason to shake anything any more than another sub.

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post #1095 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The bottomline is...if the house/room is well constructed, little "shaking" is cause by the physical sub to floor contact. Whatever is happening throughout the room is also being transferred to/through the floor. Placing a glass/bowl of water on the subs will show you how much shaking they are actually doing.

The fact that Empire doesn't have higher SPL readings relative to the other subs is evidence of this.

The fact that the Hsu bests all the other subs in couch-shaking ability (in Adam's living room at least), yet it had the lowest overall average SPLs is evidence that you could be wrong about that.

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post #1096 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

The fact that the Hsu bests all the other subs in couch-shaking ability (in Adam's living room at least), yet it had the lowest overall average SPLs is evidence that you could be wrong about that.

Then in the very least we have discrepancy with the data and thoughts. Those with higher SPL should have shaken the room more than the Empire.

Did the subs with a higher average SPL shake the room even more than the Empire? With them having one driver, AND more SPL, they should have even more noticeable "shake" with your thoughts...right?

To begin to dissect it, you need to EQ the subs and try it again. Placement comes into play, and even the directions the woofers are firing in exciting the nodes.

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post #1097 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 05:14 PM
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All that big money subwoofage and not a single proper REW graph to look at......
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post #1098 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

The fact that the Hsu bests all the other subs in couch-shaking ability (in Adam's living room at least), yet it had the lowest overall average SPLs is evidence that you could be wrong about that.

I was looking for this answer between Empire and HSU-VTF15H. Now that is answered; What do you think is the second and third sub with this couching shaking/pounding chest ability?. (My interest are between: Empire or F15HP, but lately I was reading that HSU really shakes lot more than other subs; while Empire stills excellent on Music on the $800-$1000 price range. I read that on the KC Shootout. Now I have to decide between HSU/Empire/Rythmik!!!!! keeping in mind I love music too. Otherwise HSU would be my 1st choice.; but it's not my case thanks to my music affair...

Im going to cite what Archaea emailed me: "My preference is for the deep LFE stuff because it's shocking when you hear it and unknown to most people. The Epik Empire sounds incredible, but I never heard it make the grin inducing deep sounds that I've heard the HSU and SVS make. The HSU or the SVS with a 15hz or 16hz tune (one port plugged) will sound like something you've never heard before I'll bet. If you want to experience something new I'd recommend against the Epik Empire."
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post #1099 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

All that big money subwoofage and not a single proper REW graph to look at......

Looking forward to your shootout thread w/ proper REW graphs.

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post #1100 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 06:47 PM
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Looking forward to your shootout thread w/ proper REW graphs.

LOL thanks Avarice.

I guess before REW people were making graphs improperly, you know, by using their hands. What were they thinking?

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post #1101 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Then in the very least we have discrepancy with the data and thoughts. Those with higher SPL should have shaken the room more than the Empire.

Did the subs with a higher average SPL shake the room even more than the Empire? With them having one driver, AND more SPL, they should have even more noticeable "shake" with your thoughts...right?

To begin to dissect it, you need to EQ the subs and try it again. Placement comes into play, and even the directions the woofers are firing in exciting the nodes.

This is exactly what had Ethan and I so perplexed before. The HSU had the least average output yet shook the room more than any other sub, except maybe the VS we just got done listening to. When we said maybe because it had larger feet than the others so more surface area to transfer the cabinet vibrations, someone said they highly doubted that was the reason. However, when you are building a room for sound isolation with regards to bass the least points of contact you have with the adjoining rooms the better. That way the bass has less paths to travel. Room within a room is considered the ultimate isolation. Isn't that also why people use great grammas?? To decouple the sub from the floor? I'm not saying that's the only reason just maybe one of the factors involved. If that is true then the Empire would still be at a disadvantage.

The eD 450 had the highest peak spl followed very closely by the CHT. Yet the HSU shook the room the hardest followed by the Rythmik. So the correlation between spl's and resulting vibrations is kind of hard to figure out. Maybe someone else can chime in and enlighten us.
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post #1102 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by _Avarice_ View Post

Looking forward to your shootout thread w/ proper REW graphs.

I would say Nick is commenting on the fact that they had 5k plus? worth of subs yet they didn't take advantage of a free tool like REW. When you open a "shootout" thread, I would think comments would be expected.

Excuse me, but Ive got to get back to this 1.2 million dollar tax return and the abacus is getting cold.
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post #1103 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Madaeel View Post

This is exactly what had Ethan and I so perplexed before. The HSU had the least average output yet shook the room more than any other sub, except maybe the VS we just got done listening to. When we said maybe because it had larger feet than the others so more surface area to transfer the cabinet vibrations, someone said they highly doubted that was the reason. However, when you are building a room for sound isolation with regards to bass the least points of contact you have with the adjoining rooms the better. That way the bass has less paths to travel. Room within a room is considered the ultimate isolation. Isn't that also why people use great grammas?? To decouple the sub from the floor? I'm not saying that's the only reason just maybe one of the factors involved. If that is true then the Empire would still be at a disadvantage.

The eD 450 had the highest peak spl followed very closely by the CHT. Yet the HSU shook the room the hardest followed by the Rythmik. So the correlation between spl's and resulting vibrations is kind of hard to figure out. Maybe someone else can chime in and enlighten us.

Maybe the HSU was coupled to the floor a bit more than the other subs?
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post #1104 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I would say Nick is commenting on the fact that they had 5k plus? worth of subs yet they didn't take advantage of a free tool like REW. When you open a "shootout" thread, I would think comments would be expected.

Excuse me, but Ive got to get back to this 1.2 million dollar tax return and the abacus is getting cold.

Yah, definitely comments to be expected. It does seem as if the shootout was geared more towards typical end users however, which makes a hell of a lot of sense. I don't believe they catered their review to the REW/expert crowd as they aren't necessarily REW/experts with subs. Nice job guys.
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post #1105 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mannoiaj View Post

It does seem as if the shootout was geared more towards typical end users however, which makes a hell of a lot of sense. I don't believe they catered their review to the REW/expert crowd as they aren't necessarily REW/experts with subs.

I can appreciate that, but then why argue back against a guy like Bosso with a primitive graph ? An altered one at that. Why not say "like yah bosso dude this is an average Joe test for average Joes. We just report it like we heard it"

Either don't do measurements, or do them. It would end a lot of the crap.
FWIW I have no problems with the test as is.
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post #1106 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

If the floor is a concrete slab...than any sub is doing its work via SPL alone when placed on it. A concrete slab does not vibrate.

Again..the Empire doesn't generally have higher SPL's....so it has no reason to shake anything any more than another sub.

You are confusing vibrating concrete slabs with a slab of concrete transferring vibrations.

If you put an old front-loader washer on spin cycle on that floor, I bet you would feel the vibration on the couch no? Same thing.
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post #1107 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 09:11 PM
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Why are we discussing which subs play what frequency the loudest at all? How do we know? I never saw any max spl graphs for different frequencies. We know which sub was flattest in their room but that is about it. Why does the HSU shake the room more but has the lowest spl during movies? Maybe it excited certain room nodes the others didn't? Maybe it was a 20hz scene and the 2 ported subs did better? Again without max spl graphs at different frequencies we won't know. Shaking without audibility usually means low frequencies so if that what the HSU was doing then it was going lower and louder but the spl meter is low below 25hz so it would not read high without correction factors. If the shaking was audible then it could be either 30hz and above or distortion from 15hz or lower causing 30hz to be audible. Again, we don't know. What we do know for a fact is that the brothers had a great time, put lots of effort, and has a right to an opinion since they heard them all the way they would set them up. If they like the Rythmik best, it is best to them. In my experience ported subs always feel lower than sealed when the sealed is not dialed in like it should be.
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post #1108 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

If you give the posted graph more than a cursory glance, you'll count 6 traces for 5 subs. The chase traces on my graph are in red. The solid trace is boost on and the dashed trace is boost off. These are directly from your posted results and you clearly said you used boost on for the shootout.



You (and everyone else in the HT world) calibrated the subs equally by using the AVRs calibration tone, which is a tone made up of limited band pink noise from 30-100 Hz, not a 25 Hz sine tone, as your composite graph cited here would reflect. So, your maximum output will stay relative to that calibration and the in-room response.

IOW, as your graph shows, the chase sub would have to have been calibrated 6-7dB hot vs the other subs in order for your point about extension to hold water. Even if it were, the maximum peak output performance during movie scenes would not have changed, keeping the output of the chase sub below 25 Hz lower than the other subs.

I've made no accusations, only pointed out the facts of the matter, as I always have, regardless of the sub or subs being discussed. I'm terribly sorry you see my posts as attacks and/or accusations. I've gone above and beyond to appease that prejudice, and quite frankly, I don't know what more I need to do.

I responded to a rather flippant and condescending post by someone in this thread in which that someone errantly referred to a post of mine from another thread. Although I'll certainly get over it, it hurts to think that you have chosen to give that person's post a complete pass while labeling my clarifying response as accusatory.

Bosso

So let me try and recap:



Below90 suggested in the above graph that if all the subs were calibrated with a 25hz sine wave (instead of the AVR's rumble tone; 30-100hz), then the shapes of the curves would not change, but shift. This would give the CHT a favorable curve compared to the others.

However, Bosso pointed out that if this had happened, the CHT would have to run 'hot' 6-7db compared to the other subs. But even it did run 'hot' at 25hz, its max output still would not change and be less than the other subs from 25hz and below.

My question is: do max output curves typically have the same shape of the 'calibration' curves? If this is true, would the max output curves revert back to generally the original plot below, thus supporting Bosso's point that the CHT would revert back to having the least amount of output below 25hz?

EDIT: If they do stay the same general shape, the max output curve would only shift the curves up or down.



I believe in the a7s-450s case, the max output curve would look much different (from 25hz and below or so) than its 'calibration curve'. The a7s has a high pass filter (HPF) at 18hz or so with a 12db slope. This was implemented as a 'safety mechanism' as they used to produce it without the HPF (and the amp can be modded at request to remove the HPF). When running max output tests, the HPF really doesn't come into play and the 'true' frequency curve will be revealed.

That being said, if the max output curve shows more output than its 'calibration' curve, then that should give you an indication of its ability to handle EQ and also the sub's associated headroom, correct?
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post #1109 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

You are confusing vibrating concrete slabs with a slab of concrete transferring vibrations.

If you put an old front-loader washer on spin cycle on that floor, I bet you would feel the vibration on the couch no? Same thing.

the concrete slab does not move, and doesn't transfer anything.

How does a concrete slab transfer vibrations if itself doesn't vibrate? Think about it.

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post #1110 of 1253 Old 07-05-2011, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post

I can appreciate that, but then why argue back against a guy like Bosso with a primitive graph ? An altered one at that. Why not say "like yah bosso dude this is an average Joe test for average Joes. We just report it like we heard it"

Either don't do measurements, or do them. It would end a lot of the crap.
FWIW I have no problems with the test as is.

I agree Tack for the most part. I'm just not going to bust their balls about it as I'd like them to do it again. It's a nice nugget of info for sure to a guy like me... but I agree with you that it doesn't need to be defended and primitive graphs aren't going to help anything. It is what it is. They called it like they saw it and thats cool.
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