SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:39 AM
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torn between fv15hp ( a potential of "best of both worlds" in HT fun and SQ music) or a vtf 15.

my max price is $1500 for pretty much everything including taxes and since i live in canada, well shipping cost aint no fun.

a vtf 15h ~ $1100
a FV15HP ~ $1600

So given a rough 4 to 5 hundred dollars difference would it really be worth it, yay or nay.
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post #92 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by buggy166 View Post

torn between fv15hp ( a potential of "best of both worlds" in HT fun and SQ music) or a vtf 15.

my max price is $1500 for pretty much everything including taxes and since i live in canada, well shipping cost aint no fun.

a vtf 15h ~ $1100
a FV15HP ~ $1600

So given a rough 4 to 5 hundred dollars difference would it really be worth it, yay or nay.

Twin A7S-450s $1600!
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post #93 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:43 AM
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One thing that stands out immediately to me is just how similar the results are for all the subs. Look at the graphs, and it's clear that the biggest factor is the room. This is the limitation of in room testing, and while it colors each sub equally, it tends to override subjective evaluations. Since no one will be using their new sub in that particular room I think more attention should be paid to output and extension, build quality, fit and finish, amplifier capability, etc. These are the areas that I found most interesting, and which will help me the most in choosing a new sub.

Similar designs when driven with in their limits should really closely match each other in terms of in room FR measurements. The ported designs have a F3 much lower then sealed designs but sealed designs having a natural downward slope will overtake the Ported designs below the tuning point. Sealed designs also should have naturally more output in the 40Hz and beyond region.

Conclusion, in a room when driving subs to average levels should produce the same response curves. Honestly the simplistic FR plot does not tells us much about the designs. Harmonic Distortion, Decay, etc would be much more interesting in terms of difference.

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post #94 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:45 AM
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Twin A7S-450s $1600!

forgot to say i live in a rental apartment and dont wish to pay for the broken glass that would result from that much power hahaha

also room is constrained in a living room of that type since its not a HT dedicated room. Till i move into a house, which god knows when it'll be, im stuck with a medium sized open living room.
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post #95 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:46 AM
 
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forgot to say i live in a rental apartment and dont wish to pay for the broken glass that would result from that much power hahaha

also room is constrained in a living room of that type since its not a HT dedicated room. Till i move into a house, which god knows when it'll be, im stuck with a medium sized open living room.

Maybe the Empire would be better, smaller form and no vibration since the dual drivers cancel out box resonances.
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post #96 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Maybe the Empire would be better, smaller form and no vibration since the dual drivers cancel out box resonances.

Actually, dual opposed does not cancel out resonances, it cancels the forces caused by cone movement(cones moving in the opposite direction). Any vibrations/resonance(caused by sound) or mechanical "noise" will still be there.

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post #97 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 09:52 AM
 
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Actually, dual opposed does not cancel out resonances, it cancels the forces caused by cone movement(cones moving in the opposite direction). Any vibrations/resonance(caused by sound) or mechanical "noise" will still be there.

OK, what he said! Maybe the Empire would be better.......(see above!)
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post #98 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Maybe the Empire would be better, smaller form and no vibration since the dual drivers cancel out box resonances.

Epik doesn't ship to Canada. Unless, they recently had a change in policy that I'm not aware of.
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post #99 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:09 AM
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Oops, I posted to fast about saying amazing job with measurements.

DISCLAIMER. RadioShack meters SHOULD NEVER be used for critical measurements in any system, especially in shootouts. They are notorously inaccurate down low. I guess I missed that they are used here.

$100 should have been spent on a calibrated mic and sound card with REW.

Sorry if that sounds negative but everyone should be aware of possible flaws. Its still an amazing write up but the measurements could have many inaccuracies.

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post #100 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:11 AM
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Great review guys now you need to play those demo material with all 5 subs going!!!!!!!
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post #101 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Oops, I posted to fast about saying amazing job with measurements.

DISCLAIMER. RadioShack meters SHOULD NEVER be used for critical measurements in any system, especially in shootouts. They are notorously inaccurate down low. I guess I missed that they are used here.

$100 should have been spent on a calibrated mic and sound card with REW.

Sorry if that sounds negative but everyone should be aware of possible flaws. Its still an amazing write up but the measurements could have many inaccuracies.

These were comparative tests not absolutes. Each unit was measured in the same way with the same equipment and the same test input. While the results don't give absolutes they sure do give great comparative results.

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post #102 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:25 AM
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A way better read than the "paid" job over at AH. Certainly more real world type stuff.
I'd like to join the rest and say thanks!
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post #103 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:28 AM
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Great job guys and thanks for you hard work.
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post #104 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:32 AM
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I don't mean to cause disturbances by this. Whether my observation has merit or not, it appears to me if ones highest priority is overall value, but with most important emphasis on articulate sound quality without a couple of hundred dollars being too much concern or WAF, they seem to be in reverse preference.

A reason for not ranking them specifically, aside from class and appreciation to the manufacturers might be because they realize that their preferences are different than other peoples preferences and the weight they put on each. As well, used in another room being a different size or shape could easily change the order. Or if money or WAF or SPL or size was highest on the priority scale. Not to mention they realize they couldn't tune and fiddle with the absolute best sound match in their system for hours to see which fit their specific system the best.

It also makes me realize, as incredibly helpful as this review is, it hasn't helped me decide. I have a smaller room and want duals to get both extension, mid-base and smooth response to best my PB13 without losing or besting the SQ. I don't know if any of these as duals will do that as it's not compared to my PB. My point is, since my situation isn't exact, I won't know unless I try for myself.

So them ranking a preference and having people simply assume it's the best sub, would be unfair to these sub manufacturers who have great options and have been supportive in the review. As well as unfair to an individual who may buy that sub and find that it wasn't the best for their room or system.

But that does leave me with a question. I wonder if you guys found that any of the subs blended better than others with your system? And if so are your mains ported?


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post #105 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by RickD1225 View Post

These were comparative tests not absolutes. Each unit was measured in the same way with the same equipment and the same test input. While the results don't give absolutes they sure do give great comparative results.

I too would have liked for them to use a calibrated mic and soundcard with REW, but you are correct. Since they were consistent with their measuring technique their graphs are good for comparative purposes.

Great job guys.

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post #106 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:34 AM
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Wish something like this type of review was available a couple of years ago when I was researching subs. Of course most of the subs reviewed were not available at the time.

But you guys did an job.

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post #107 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:54 AM
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Great to see all of the subs are good buys and all perform well enough to satisfy the majority of buyers!

Thanks guys for the work, awesome job.

-Greg

 



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post #108 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 10:58 AM
 
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Tanks for the shootout it was a great read. I'm am in the market for a sub and was leaning towards the HSU. The part about how you can feel the bass is right up my ally. Giving up some DBS is ok with me because let's face it the wife isn't going to let me play any sub full out anyways. A++ much better than the BS audioholics shootout.
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post #109 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 11:07 AM
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Why did you guys not listen to a bigger variety of music to test the sound quality on music?
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post #110 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 11:26 AM
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post #111 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 11:34 AM
 
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Thanks for your dedication to this project. As somewhat of a newbie to the world of subs you've helped me focus in on specific bench marks and make a short list.
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post #112 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Just wow!!! Thanks to everyone for their comments! You guys just made my day/week/month/year! Really Ethan and I are just thrilled with your responses! It's nice to see everyone enjoyed the review. More than anything we just wanted everyone to enjoy this as much as we did and it looks like we accomplished that. For those that disagreed with some of the testing methodology/equipment and offered some advice I appreciate that as well because it will help us in the future.

I apologize I can't answer every question or respond to some comments, it is Super Sunday after all, but I'll try to do a quick rundown:
-videos were SUPPOSED to be edited(I'm gonna kill you bro)
-my wife does have a sister...........in Croatia haha
- we will try to fix the thread to make it easier to read(ONCE AGAIN ITS SUPER SUNDAY PEOPLE!)
-sweating bullets by megadeath: got it and will check it out!
-calibrated mic and rew: will get it and test the differences and use in the future(as noted though we used the spl meter from Radioshack since it's what MOST people have access to)

Thanks again everyone for the kind words and appreciation for the review! I'll tell you though out of everything the time doing this with my brother was the best part. Like someone had mentioned, most of the guys on this forum love A/V, but its even better when we can share our experiences with people who share the same passion as us and can discuss it as adults. Its also great to learn from the guys here because some of them have just an amazing knowledge of A/V equipment...........Hope everyone enjoys the game and please root for the packers!
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post #113 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post


It also makes me realize, as incredibly helpful as this review is, it hasn't helped me decide. I have a smaller room and want duals to get both extension, mid-base and smooth response to best my PB13 without losing or besting the SQ. I don't know if any of these as duals will do that as it's not compared to my PB. My point is, since my situation isn't exact, I won't know unless I try for myself.

In your "smaller" room, depending on the size of the room, the room gain you get below 25hz and your listening levels, the amount of extension and SPL you're getting below 25hz from your PB13 may not be missed with duals of these subs (the PB13 will still outgun duals of any of the above mentioned subs though - I believe this is the case whether you use HSU's CEA2010 numbers or AH's for that matter after adjusting for continuous vs burst measurements).

As for mid-bass, yes, you should be able to get "higher" mid-bass from any of the aforementioned subs.

As for SQ ... good luck figuring that one out.

 

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post #114 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 11:49 AM
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Adam/Ethan, can you clarify something ....



Just so I understand, for each sub you ran a test tone at each of the above noted frequencies to chart this at -15db?

Also, you mention "level matching" the subs to the mains to ensure they were the same level. Just curious if you used the AVR pink noise, or a specific test tone?

Last question, how badly were your ears ringing after you finished!

 

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post #115 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 12:03 PM
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As for SQ ... good luck figuring that one out.

Thanks for your thoughts. But SQ is the key for me. I'm not willing to trade it for other improvements. Just add to it, or improve overall.


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post #116 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 12:10 PM
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Great job guys! Nice to see that there really isn't too much difference between all these subs. Take into account the room, sealed or ported subs and they all are a good buy for output and SQ. Quality of the build, sub finish and customer support are another matter. I know the my Quad Empires with the Anti Mode in a 6000+ cu ft open room is a keeper for me.

Bill

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post #117 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post

Thanks for your thoughts. But SQ is the key for me. I'm not willing to trade it for other improvements. Just add to it, or improve overall.

Just saying, short of having two different subs in your room and level matching them across a FR (no easy feat btw, trust me as I spent hours trying to do just that with my sealed boxes vs the PB13 I have and it wasn't easy), then playing the same material over and over again between the two, figuring out which "SQ" you like better won't be easy (well, save for a really crappy sub vs a really good sub).

I've listened to 5 or 6 different FR matched (as best we could) subs blind in an HT (the PB13, DD18, F113, EP600), and even then figuring out which one had the "best" SQ was difficult, and at times highly dependent upon the material. I.e., not just "HT vs Music" but different types of music.

 

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post #118 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 12:35 PM
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Just found this thread. Great review. You guys deserve a major round of applause for your work on this. I think this will help lots of people.....or further confuse them.

Either way, very well done...we are all very impressed with your dedication.

I have run both the Hsu STF-2 and more recently the VTF-3.3 but I have been considering upgrading to the new one. When the upgraditis totally consumes me, I will certainly re-read this for opinions.

I hope everybody has a great Super Bowl Sunday.

I will be enjoying delicious brews from my new project....a 4 tap keezer (chest freezer conversion kegerator).

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post #119 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 12:50 PM
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Awesome comparison! I couldn't help but wonder why SVS wasn't represented here. I guess because then it would be a masacre instead of a shootout?
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post #120 of 1257 Old 02-06-2011, 12:56 PM
 
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SVS was too expensive, I think by the category they decided to go with.
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