SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:00 PM
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Thanks for he time and effort guys. Loved the writes-ups, pics and videos!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Awesome comparison! I couldn't help but wonder why SVS wasn't represented here. I guess because then it would be a masacre instead of a shootout?


Probably cuz the price difference. It would either be a lower costing NSD model or a $3-500 more plus model comparing to the average cost of these subs in the shootout. Just my guess I own SVS and HSU and am happy with both.

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post #122 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

SVS was too expensive, I think by the category they decided to go with.

Ah, ok I see now. Either way it's still a great read.
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post #123 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Awesome comparison! I couldn't help but wonder why SVS wasn't represented here. I guess because then it would be a masacre instead of a shootout?

SVS would get "massacred" for any of their sub $1000 offerings and anything thats better than the lineup in here from SVS costs a few hundred more.

Price is key for a lot of people.
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post #124 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:10 PM
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I applaud you for the effort put forth into these tests, however the graphs posted are dominated by room modes and may give people the wrong impressions on some of these subs.

I'm also still surprised to see eD having issues with their amps. You'd figure they would have had that sorted out by now.

3/4 of the eD amps I have owned have failed, but at least they were quick to replace them.

Here's one of the more blatant QC misses:

http://i.imgur.com/bSDO5.jpg
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post #125 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Just saying, short of having two different subs in your room and level matching them across a FR (no easy feat btw, trust me as I spent hours trying to do just that with my sealed boxes vs the PB13 I have and it wasn't easy), then playing the same material over and over again between the two, figuring out which "SQ" you like better won't be easy (well, save for a really crappy sub vs a really good sub).

I've listened to 5 or 6 different FR matched (as best we could) subs blind in an HT (the PB13, DD18, F113, EP600), and even then figuring out which one had the "best" SQ was difficult, and at times highly dependent upon the material. I.e., not just "HT vs Music" but different types of music.

I think we were able to divide them though by type. The DD18 and F113 sounded similar and the EP600 and PB13 had a distinct "vented" sound. The DD18 and f113 sounded very similar until the DD18 limiter kicked in on Pulse and then it was very odd and unique whereas the f113 just started to get "clanky".

My only hesitation with this shootout is that nobody knows what the THD and IMD were. If you play something with a 20hz fundamental and then the sub adds in 50% THD at 40/60hz, it will measure louder but have a pile of harmonics that shouldn't be there.

The FR question is debatable. There is a 10db swing in the 40hz section among those subs. That alone can give a huge difference in listening impressions. It could also be easily corrected with EQ. Should they have tried to match the FR? Maybe.
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post #126 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:36 PM
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Hey guys, like the distinguished gentleman with whom I share a genetic addiction to bass has observed, we are just floored with the positive response. We totally were not expecting to see 4 pages of your kind regards, and we are humbled by it. We are very, very happy to hear that our labors were not in vain. We've read every single reply and we appreciate each response - and the sense of humor you guys have! We may not always respond to each post, but we do call each other and say stuff like, "did you see that post by oddiodog? "love/hate relationship with us". hilarious!" So its appreciated.

Now for a few specific comments/questions, I'll take a crack at them:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

To bad you have that nasty null at 45Hz.

Yeah we were hoping someone would point that out, we thought it would be good to post that so folks who are just starting out can see a non-flat Frequency Response (FR) is normal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the Son View Post

BTW.....You guys gotta check out the excursion on the double bass part of Sweating Bullets by Megadeth!!!!

Really? Dang I have that song but I've only ever listened to it on my Sennheiser HD202's. Guess I gotta play it on some speakers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminbass View Post

I must say I'm impressed with the 20 Hz response of the Epik considering it's really a pretty small enclosure volume for two 15" drivers. Makes me wonder how much eq boost they might have used.

I'm thinking the opposed drivers might have a big hand in the bottom end extension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bribowsky View Post

And while I did greatly enjoy the vids, I really could have done without Adam's "Pants on the Ground" skit in the unboxing of the Rhythmic.

Yeah sorry bout that, we didn't really notice until we watched the vids how much of our bums you could see. I promised Adam I'd edit them out even though I knew I couldn't, but he wouldn't have let me post them otherwise!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

One question though, what was the Q setting used on the HSU sub for the graph and testing?

we had it at its lowest setting, which is 0.25 If I Recall Correctly (IIRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

He said before he was selling the subs, all of them while he completed his basement and saw what else came out in the time frame. He wasn't going to keep 1.

Even if we did wanna keep one, Adam has a different setup then me, so his choice would not be mine. Which perfectly illustrates why saying which sub we'd personally keep is just not relevant. I know, we suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post

-What receiver or pre pro were you using and what speakers?
-Did you adjust the subwoofer trims/output levels on the receiver end as you swapped out?
- Did you run any of the subs "hot"?

  • Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver (AVR) and Axiom M22 and M2 in-walls.
  • Yeah in "Test Setup" section we mention we level matched each sub, and we did it by adjusting the gain knob on the subs and adjusting the channel levels on the AVR
  • Yes, also mentioned we ran subs 10db hot for music, 5db hot for movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lgascoig View Post

In the spirit of real world, real dudes, etc... There should also be a real "when my wife makes me return 4 of these..." section.

Actually, Adam's wife was upset when she found out he wasn't keeping them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Why did you guys not listen to a bigger variety of music to test the sound quality on music?

The two songs we chose put the subs through a very tough workout. Many guys have blown drivers and amps on "I Love You Bass". "Low Roads" covers higher frequencies and accuracy. If those subs can play those songs as loud as they did and sound good doing it, they can handle anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post


That is freakin hilarious!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Just so I understand, for each sub you ran a test tone at each of the above noted frequencies to chart this at -15db?

Just curious if you used the AVR pink noise, or a specific test tone?

Last question, how badly were your ears ringing after you finished!

  • Yes.
  • AVR pink noise. (again, we tried to utilize the subs like the average user will)
  • Well, to be honest I suffered some head trauma about 6 years ago that I still suffer from, so yeah I was in a bit of pain sometimes. But honestly, I never noticed until I got home cuz we were having so much fun. My bro is the funniest dude you'd ever meet man.

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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post #127 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 01:49 PM
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So after all was said and done, did you hook up all of the subs and blow the windows out ????

God Knows I would have - even for just a brief period of stupidity
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post #128 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:17 PM
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First of all, thanks for posting your efforts here, very informative.

Second of all, watching you two knot-heads uncrate those subs was well worth the price of admission alone, complete with boxer covered plumbers crack and Ethans bill-board T-shirts

I have an Empire that will ship Monday, watching your posting gives a guy a first hand view of what to expect, I already knew my sub was going to be delivered on it's own pallet via Karen @ Epik, but seeing your video made me feel like I was receiving my new sub right along with you.

I can appreciate all the positive input you gave (esp. WAF), my wife still thinks we're all crazy, in fact, I think there should be an AVS Wives Forum so our wives can have an outlet to vent to other wives and tell each other how crazy their husbands are I read to my wife the guitar string top floor bit and she just shook her head and said "you guys are all crazy"

Thanks again, your efforts were phenomenal.

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post #129 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:19 PM
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Nice job, I love the video pieces as well. Thank you for all the effort!

~Nick

 

Augustine's Law: "The last 10% of performance generates one-third of the cost and two-thirds of the problems."

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post #130 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:32 PM
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btw I just noticed that the FV15 review is missing the "movie scene" video that the other reviews have. I assume it was just forgotten?
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post #131 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:33 PM
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Ignoring the expense, this kind of thing takes a huge amount of time and effort. Thanks!
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post #132 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:41 PM
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First off, I want to add my thanks to the many posters who appreciated reading this comparison review. I've been on the fence regarding which sub to purchase and reviews of all kinds are helpful. Thank you for that.

On another note: I see you posted which songs you tested on these subs, but I can't seem to determine which song is used in the intro video for the ED sub...? I just love the song and am hoping to find it...

Anyone know?
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post #133 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicHSAD View Post
btw I just noticed that the FV15 review is missing the "movie scene" video that the other reviews have. I assume it was just forgotten?
Argh. You weren't supposed to notice! What happened was my camera was recording but I thought it was stopped, so when i hit "record" to start recording the scene, I actually stopped it. Didn't notice until yesterday I had no FV15 Cloverfield footage. Doh!

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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post #134 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 02:59 PM
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Wow, you guys really hit a home run with the quality of media and "just plain folks" content. Great photography and fun videos in a herculean effort. Of these subs, the only 1 I've heard is the Empire and you pretty much nailed it. All of the subs, if played within their limits are going to sound awesome and some of those limits are pretty impressive.

Looking at your wording, I'm a little confused about your subjective conclusions. I think you were saying that you felt the Empire and 18.1 were different, but subjectively equal in SQ. Then you go on to say it's also a tossup between the Rythmik and Hsu. So, are they a subjective stepup from the sealed subs...or...are you comparing sealed subs as a group, then ported subs as a group?

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #135 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post
Argh. You weren't supposed to notice! What happened was my camera was recording but I thought it was stopped, so when i hit "record" to start recording the scene, I actually stopped it. Didn't notice until yesterday I had no FV15 Cloverfield footage. Doh!
I loved the Michael Jackson tribute.

Also the attempted fist bump during the intro, classic!
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post #136 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post
Wow, you guys really hit a home run with the quality of media and "just plain folks" content. Great photography and fun videos in a herculean effort. Of these subs, the only 1 I've heard is the Empire and you pretty much nailed it. All of the subs, if played within their limits are going to sound awesome and some of those limits are pretty impressive.

Looking at your wording, I'm a little confused about your subjective conclusions. I think you were saying that you felt the Empire and 18.1 were different, but subjectively equal in SQ. Then you go on to say it's also a tossup between the Rythmik and Hsu. So, are they a subjective stepup from the sealed subs...or...are you comparing sealed subs as a group, then ported subs as a group?
Hmm, I never thought of it that way, but you may be right? I would like to know that as well.
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post #137 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 03:18 PM
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Yeah I found it interesting that the two ported subs ended up having the best SQ, usually the sealed subs tend win those battles hehe. Doesn't surprise me from the Rythmik though, just watching that cone go, you can tell there is no boominess there.
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post #138 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 04:38 PM
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Nice work, guys. Thanks for taking the time and effort. Very commendable.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #139 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 04:43 PM
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Wow, awesome friggen review! Thanks for making the entire piece readable too. No high tech babble and hooplah, just how loud it is, what it feels like, SPLs, etc. You guys really hit the ball outta the park with this one. I have the 18.1 and I agree with the fact that it totally kicks ass! I have one of the first ones ever sold and the finish on mine is actually quite good. They seem to vary from sub to sub. Awesome work!

P.S. I can't wait for your 1700 dollar and up 5-way sub shootout. Maybe SVS PB13-Ultra, DTS-10, ULS-Dual Drive, A7s-650, etc.
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post #140 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 04:54 PM
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Hey guys.... >5K views in arround 24 hrs? I think thats better than what others claim.
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post #141 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Wow, you guys really hit a home run with the quality of media and "just plain folks" content. Great photography and fun videos in a herculean effort. Of these subs, the only 1 I've heard is the Empire and you pretty much nailed it. All of the subs, if played within their limits are going to sound awesome and some of those limits are pretty impressive.

Looking at your wording, I'm a little confused about your subjective conclusions. I think you were saying that you felt the Empire and 18.1 were different, but subjectively equal in SQ. Then you go on to say it's also a tossup between the Rythmik and Hsu. So, are they a subjective stepup from the sealed subs...or...are you comparing sealed subs as a group, then ported subs as a group?

Wondering this also.
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post #142 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 06:55 PM
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I don't see the point to this shootout at all unless the point was that for about $1000 you can get a crap load of SPL these days from ID sub manufactures. I realize you're not professionals and these things take a lot of time, but basically you did what exactly? Take max SPL ratings in room of 5 different subwoofers on a variety of source material with a tiny bit of subjective listening and comment on the percieved build quality?

Subwoofers don't sound the same. They sound similar, but different. I applaud your effort but more time spend describing your subjective feelings would have gone a long way for me. For example - I like how you mention the mid bass slam of the CS18.1. What else set these subwoofers apart other than a few SPL here and there? Maybe I need to read more carefully (I've only read it twice.)
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post #143 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 07:03 PM
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when is YOUR subwoofer shootout going to be posted, MUCHO?
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post #144 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 07:06 PM
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Great job, great info. Alot of work but I bet it was fun.
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post #145 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 07:06 PM
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good effort and enjoyed the read, but I really didn't get much out of the review other then spl readings from a technical aspect...tho, the description of the actual sub was very good...and also liked how we could see them packaged...one looked like it wasn't packaged well...however, your personal tastes of how it sounds is very SUBJECTIVE. Still, very fun to read and watch.

I heard someone say they wish they saw this review before they bought the Epic...nut sure why?
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post #146 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUCHO View Post

I don't see the point to this shootout at all unless the point was that for about $1000 you can get a crap load of SPL these days from ID sub manufactures. I realize you're not professionals and these things take a lot of time, but basically you did what exactly? Take max SPL ratings in room of 5 different subwoofers on a variety of source material with a tiny bit of subjective listening and comment on the percieved build quality?

Subwoofers don't sound the same. They sound similar, but different. I applaud your effort but more time spend describing your subjective feelings would have gone a long way for me. For example - I like how you mention the mid bass slam of the CS18.1. What else set these subwoofers apart other than a few SPL here and there? Maybe I need to read more carefully (I've only read it twice.)

Can you find what they put together for you somewhere else? If you want to know the subjective sound quality, spend a little time going through each manufacture's thread...

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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post #147 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 08:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminbass View Post

when is YOUR subwoofer shootout going to be posted, MUCHO?

Shh MUCHO is still trying to understand what he read 3 times!
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post #148 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Can you find what they put together for you somewhere else? If you want to know the subjective sound quality, spend a little time going through each manufacture's thread...


Or ---- Tell him to buy all these subs his-self and do the comparison in his own room, don't forget to suggest to him that he should take the time to make videos, take pics and post all the graphs as well as his listening impressions when he's finished...


Some people just want others to tell them which direction to go, so they don't have to lift a finger or open their wallet or use their own brains whatsoever !!!!!
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post #149 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 09:57 PM
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Good effort guys.

One thing I wanted to note. When using the rat shack meters with the generic correction values your response graphs are ok because they are all comparable. How was the Spl recorded for the music and movie scenes? I presume you recorded it directly off of the meter? In that case you cannot add the correction values due to the complex waveform being reproduced. Some of the tracks that you used contain very powerful sub 25hz bass. The subs that have greater extension and low bass output will get shortchanged on the total spl because the meter will be registering the output above 35hz predominantly for the reading. Just something to think about next time.

Btw its "Bass I love you" not "I love you bass"!
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post #150 of 1241 Old 02-06-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUCHO View Post

I don't see the point to this shootout at all unless the point was that for about $1000 you can get a crap load of SPL these days from ID sub manufactures. I realize you're not professionals and these things take a lot of time, but basically you did what exactly? Take max SPL ratings in room of 5 different subwoofers on a variety of source material with a tiny bit of subjective listening and comment on the percieved build quality?

Subwoofers don't sound the same. They sound similar, but different. I applaud your effort but more time spend describing your subjective feelings would have gone a long way for me. For example - I like how you mention the mid bass slam of the CS18.1. What else set these subwoofers apart other than a few SPL here and there? Maybe I need to read more carefully (I've only read it twice.)

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha........you've got to be kidding?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

good effort and enjoyed the read, but I really didn't get much out of the review other then spl readings from a technical aspect...tho, the description of the actual sub was very good...and also liked how we could see them packaged...one looked like it wasn't packaged well...however, your personal tastes of how it sounds is very SUBJECTIVE. Still, very fun to read and watch.

I heard someone say they wish they saw this review before they bought the Epic...nut sure why?

Thank you Mr. Wizard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post


Some people just want others to tell them which direction to go, so they don't have to lift a finger or open their wallet or use their own brains whatsoever !!!!!

Hey, are you talking about me again?/? jk

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