The physics and understanding of low frequencies - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Can someone explain to me all the stuff that you need to know about how low frequecies work for example a woofer will sound deeper if you put in a box or even a trash can as opposed to by itself but a smaller speaker playing higher pitched sounds doesnt also if you have some headphones that cover your ears you can make the bass louder by putting pressure to the headphones against the side of your head and if you take the headphones off you can still hear the music but the bass has basically vanished or if I put a sub in the passenger seat of my truck the bass is crazy but take it to an open area outside and greatly diminishes but this doesnt apply to higher frequencies and also at what frequency does it do this or is it a gradual change and what do people mean when they say they are tuning their box to 40hz or 30hz dont you want to hear more then one bass note that would be weird listeing to music and the only time you heard bass was when the bassist played a low E40hz or a low A55hz. I realize this probably isnt the approprate section so sorry about that.
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post #2 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 02:47 AM
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That's a long sentence
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post #3 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 11:21 AM
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It's actually TWO sentances. I thought of Papa.
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post #4 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 11:36 AM
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Probably at least 7 sentences. But why bother with punctuation when you can make things really hard to comprehend by foregoing it?

Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths. Put a woofer in a box and at some relatively high frequency the wavelength exceeds the distance from teh center of the woofer to the edge of the box. Then it starts to wrap around. So while a tweeter's output goes essentially forward in a pattern of 180 degrees or less (thinking just 2 dimensionally) the woofer is radiating in 360 degrees. Since more of the tweeter's response is coming your way, it's relatively louder than the woofer. Also, when a woofer operates without either a huge baffle or a box, the back wave wraps around, too, and being 180 degrees out of phase with the front wave cancels it out.

When you press closed phones tighter you seal them better so none of the tiny amounts of air movement constituting the bass can leak out. Result, louder bass because you've turned them into pressure chambers more directly connected to your ear drums. I think

In a ported sub designed for flat response down to the tuning frequency, the tuning frequency defines the point at which the most sound is coming from the port rather than the driver. You can design a sub to be very flat even with a port. On the other hand, many car subs are designed to be one-note as you described. Because no musical note is a single frequency but they all contain harmonics, a one note box will basically amplify the bejessus out of the harmonics close to the tuning point and will always be inappropriately loud at that frequency. So it will pound out about the same note no matter what the fundamental of the note being played in the source material. In my experience.

WRT in a car versus in a field, two words: cabin gain. Look it up.
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post #5 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 11:53 AM
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Smfh
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post #6 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 01:11 PM
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Smfh

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Superfi...ma-(SMFH).html
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post #7 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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So whats the frequency where you start to feel bass in your chest without really being annoying
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post #8 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you seen those videos where poeple are sitting in a room with 30 12inch speakers against a wall there has to be a limit on how loud something can get before your eardrums are no more.

Also steve meade has 4 18inch speakers and you can see peoples close move so it seems inconsistent with the 12s I just mentioned.
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post #9 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ymalmsteen887 View Post

Have you seen those videos where poeple are sitting in a room with 30 12inch speakers against a wall there has to be a limit on how loud something can get before your eardrums are no more.

Also steve meade has 4 18inch speakers and you can see peoples close move so it seems inconsistent with the 12s I just mentioned.

See clothes move huh? From how far away?

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post #10 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Like 7 feet away
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post #11 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Whats up with this talk about boomy subwoofers I get waht you were saying about playing some notes louder than others this same thing happens if you hum a scale in the shower and some notes are louder than others makes perfect sense but to say that some are good for music and some for movies is just silly movies have music too and some songs might start out with a dramitic battle sequence or something like the intro to disturbeds indestructible.

If a kick drum was 30hz for example than every time he hits it the speaker would respond to and electric signal at 30hz(i know sound is more complex than just a single wave but you get what im saying) so if a bass player pluck a note that was 30 hz but imediately stop it that would be like the kickdrum situation so if the bassist and drummer started diong really fast 16th notes than there wouldnt be a difference besides the different harmonics of course.

So what im saying is theres no difference between rap, rock, jazz, or whatever as far as physics is concerened so why are there so many lies about this stuff as if there is a diference.
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post #12 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ymalmsteen887 View Post

Whats up with this talk about boomy subwoofers I get waht you were saying about playing some notes louder than others this same thing happens if you hum a scale in the shower and some notes are louder than others makes perfect sense but to say that some are good for music and some for movies is just silly movies have music too and some songs might start out with a dramitic battle sequence or something like the intro to disturbeds indestructible.

If a kick drum was 30hz for example than every time he hits it the speaker would respond to and electric signal at 30hz(i know sound is more complex than just a single wave but you get what im saying) so if a bass player pluck a note that was 30 hz but imediately stop it that would be like the kickdrum situation so if the bassist and drummer started diong really fast 16th notes than there wouldnt be a difference besides the different harmonics of course.

So what im saying is theres no difference between rap, rock, jazz, or whatever as far as physics is concerened so why are there so many lies about this stuff as if there is a diference.

Here is the thing though. There is no such thing as a sine wave in instruments. What you are saying is that since an apple and an orange are fruits, and they all have living cells in them, they must be the same. Absolutely not. Sure if you take an infinitesimally small section of music, sure they will look the same. Same as apples and oranges, if you look at ONE cell, you would say they are the same. That sounds ridiculous, does it not? Then you zoom out, boom nothing alike.
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post #13 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post


See clothes move huh? From how far away?

He is one of several guys on youtube that does the hair trick and the only one I have seen that popped someones eye out. No joke. Look it up. He does run well over 150 db though. Entertaining.


Now back to the op's question...I'm not really sure what the question is.
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post #14 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Apples and oranges have different compositions so they taste feel smell look and even sound different.

Sounds are basically made of different sine waves at different levels so the purpose of a speaker is to simply vibrate back and forth at those sine waves in the order and magnitude of the electirc signal that the microphone vibrated back and forth from the air hitting it that went back and forth form the instruments being played.

So if your playing a song on one speaker and the same song on another speaker the only difference should be in the emphasis on diferent frequencies not the kinda of diference you hear from different peoples voice which is made up of diferent harmonics that are affected by reflections and cancelations of the individual shape of your throat and stuff like that.

If speakers made a difference like some people say then sometimes johhny depps voice should sound like david spades(or really the voices should never sound like the original) or a piano sound like a guitar or glass breaking sound like water splashing.

Im not trying to piss anyone off i just really want to understand what people are talking about when they say this sounds warm,soft, or sharp(if its sharp im assuming you have it too loud and your refering to the high frequencies ok then just turn down the treble or anything above whatever frequencie range is bothering you)
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post #15 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 07:57 PM
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So if waves are just waves, are you saying that you can mimic someones voice perfectly? Wouldn't we all have the same voice then? Or from what you are saying, same voice but different pitches? There is much more to a speaker than just a cone moving. Some materials have different resonate frequencies that they respond to, colorizing the sound. No speaker can perfectly reproduce another sound, much like you are unable to perfectly reproduce another person's voice. Of course you can come close. Your voice box is really no different than a speaker, and we know that everyone has a different voice. Each speaker has its own sound.

Waves are so much more complex than you think it is.
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post #16 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The cabin gain thing doesnt make sense because guitar bodies are only like 2 feet long and when i hum notes into the sound hole at 123hz b note its much louder than other notes below or above.

123hz has a wavelength at 9 feet so every note below 500hz should get a gain but they dont seem.

Also how do you determine what frequency a speaker box will emphasisize including guitar bodies if anyone knows.
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post #17 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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So if waves are just waves, are you saying that you can mimic someones voice perfectly? Wouldn't we all have the same voice then? Or from what you are saying, same voice but different pitches? There is much more to a speaker than just a cone moving. Some materials have different resonate frequencies that they respond to, colorizing the sound. No speaker can perfectly reproduce another sound, much like you are unable to perfectly reproduce another person's voice. Of course you can come close. Your voice box is really no different than a speaker, and we know that everyone has a different voice. Each speaker has its own sound.

Waves are so much more complex than you think it is.

We cant make our voice sound like other peoples unless we change the shape of the structures that determine the different levels of harmonics.
Would you agree that if I hum a 110hz note the only other frequencies present are 220, 330, 440 etc. Even if they went up to 100hundred harmonics you wouldnt hear them the only ones that are neccesary to tell someones voice apart are about 5 or 6 right. so if you were looking at a sound wave on a computer of my note being hummed if the speaker moves back and forth exactly in step with the wave you would get a perfect reproduction of my voice.

So if the speaker exaggreates some frequencies this wouldnt alter my voice like your implying this would be no different then when you mess around with an equilizer all you can do is raise or lower 110hz or raise or lower 220 hz etc.

I just think that there really is no speakers that have different qualities like someone buying a guitar or something if that were true than when people talk about their favorite guitar players tone of their guitar and amp you could say ya but it probably doesnt sound like that in real life in fact even at a concert you wouldnt hear their original tone because its playing through the PA.
Take yngwie malmsteen for example I listened to him for a long time and I can tell his guitar tone apart from other guitar players its just completely obvious to me so when i listen to him in my truck on my headphones my computer speakers my tv or my friends laptop i can always hear his tone except maybe more bass in my truck because of bigger speakers or too treblely on a computer laptop or cell phone because of only a 5000hz or above sound emphasis.
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post #18 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me make sure we understand each other If you record a guitar in a closet youve recorded the sound othe guitar and the reflections and cancelations of the sound of the walls as well so if you play it back thruough a speaker in the closet again your going to get another change based on the walls again but if you play the guitar in a theoritical place wher there are no outside influences to the sound then if you play it back through the speaker in the closet you would get the same sound you got when you played the guitar in the closet.
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post #19 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way a speaker is way different than your voice. Your voice vibrates at diferent speeds when singing or even talking and changes shape when saying diferent vowels but consonants are produced from your lips or tounge.
If what you were saying is true than how come I cant sound like diesel engine or foghorn or dog barking.

When you hit a speaker diaphragm noticehow it has its own sound or rub your hand agianst the speaker box you cant seem to make it talk like johhny depp.
The speaker just vibrates back and forth because of an electric signal. Now it seems the purpose of the box is to make it louder dor bass anyway for other frequencies I dont know and we have different voices for the same reason we have different looking faces because of the random mutations when we were born jsut like the inside of our bodies our not perfectly matched.

Which is it then do the different volumes in the harmonics determine why we sound different from each other and if so what makes vowels sound different from each other the harmonics ok if thats true there is probably a generic version of every vowel you can make with sine wave generator if you knew what you were doing so the uniqueness in our voice must come from the once the sound our Larynx makes and then bounces around the unique shape of our bodies so if you gave a speaker a generic vowel one should sound like a completly different person but they dont so clearly they are designed to faithfully reproduce the sound not that tahtas anything to worry about though.
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post #20 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 10:08 PM
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No.

Shaking My ****ing Head.
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post #21 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 10:22 PM
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Wow, someone forgot their medicine or took too much of mine! Its really a huge conspiracy. That is why they make so many different speakers, because they all sound the same.

Seriously, go out and listen to several different speakers, read a couple books on audio, or even spend a few days reading intelligent threads and posts on avs. Maybe it will blow your mind! Your ramblings aren't informative or scientific, but I will admit I was slightly entertained.
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post #22 of 345 Old 02-13-2011, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys you dont have to make fun of me I didnt state anything as fact Im really just trying to learn something hear if i come off as arrogant its just the nature of typing stuff if we were in person it would be different although in person I never get any answers to these questions.

If I read a book telling me that there was a different sound that would be like placebo I know speakers sound different the tv I have upstairs sounds different than the one downstairs my truck sounds different than my moms suv but the difference arent interesting they just sound like emphasis on different ranges like these towers I have that are from the 80s i really trebley and even when you turn the treble down on the stereo it still stings the ears I dont know whats up with that.

Do you believe every infomercial you hear like bose there obvioulsy trying to sell a product to people who wouldnt know the difference do you believe in homeopathy what about that power braclet that is most defiently crap yet im amazed at how many people who fall for it.

Like at best buy this one time one of the employees was trying to sell a 1080p tv to this old lady and he said the more pixels it has the better the color and I was thinking know it doesnt if you had a 16inch 720 tv and a 41 inch 1080 tv beside each other they would have the same size pixels.
So for a 41 inch tv 1080 you would have a maximum distance of 5 feet before you see the pixels for the same size tv 14 feet for 720p.
So in reality a 720 tv could have much better picture quality than a 1080 tv so he was taking advantage of her ignorance.

The different arrangement of sounds in music is what makes it so beautiful and of course we want to hear as much of the spectrum as possible and thats all speaker manufacuaters talk about is flat frequency response I mean come on if it didnt have it why would you get it. When did you every listen to a song and try to sing to it and because you were listeninig on a different sound system not recognize the meoldy.

So yeah for the most part its all just for competion vanilla coke and pepsi vanilla have a more drastic diffrence than speakers have of produceing differences because there is actually something there you can test and observe even in blind test people can tell the difference. I bet if I had you sit in a room and listen to different speakers that had been calibrated to not have much difference in frequency response it would be a guessing game and the results wouldnt be consistant.

When I hear people talk about certain speakers being good for this or that I think hey is the air in this room better for rock music or rap I mean seriously.
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post #23 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 04:58 AM
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You should just pick up and read some audio books. Additionally if you're wanting to understand the audio relationship involving sound reproduction in regards to speakers you should download and play with a program called winisd. Pick one driver from the included drivers and mess around with it. Port the box. Change the tuning frequency. Make the box bigger and smaller. See what that does to the response graph. Every change you do to a speaker/subwoofer as a whole will change the way it sounds.
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post #24 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have any books you can recommend?
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post #25 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 02:15 PM
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I am trying to understand what you don't understand.

Let me just lay out a few basics on sound reproduction.

Assume for now, that the sound is perfect in the digital domain (it's not, but that simplifies the discussion.)

Now, the digits are converted into a continuously changing voltage. The voltage represents changes in air pressure (all sound is changes in air pressure.)

When this changing voltage is applied to a speaker cone, it's causes the speaker cone to vibrate. The speaker cone does not generally vibrate at a nice simple frequency as real sound is made up of many waves at various frequencies and amplitudes.

The speaker cone is imperfect. So it's vibration will not perfectly reproduce the original sound (which was stored digitially.) In other words, it won't create the exact same changes in sound pressure as the original (which in many cases consists of artificial sound such as synthesizers and electric guitars, and was never recorded via a microphone to begin with!)

Smaller speakers are better suited for higher freq vibrations. This is why tweeters are smaller.

Larger speakers are better suited for lower freq vibrations.

All speakers are a compromise of cost, efficiency, power handling, size, bass extension (how low they can go,) and accuracy to name the obvious factors.

You can build a really crappy speaker really cheap but it's accuracy will be poor. You can build a smaller speaker, but physics dictates it won't play as low of bass, but it's cheaper to make....etc.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #26 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
No.

Shaking My ****ing Head.
Yeah, I know. It was just a meta commentary on the silliness of the thread.
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post #27 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I am trying to understand what you don't understand.

Let me just lay out a few basics on sound reproduction.

Assume for now, that the sound is perfect in the digital domain (it's not, but that simplifies the discussion.)

Now, the digits are converted into a continuously changing voltage. The voltage represents changes in air pressure (all sound is changes in air pressure.)

When this changing voltage is applied to a speaker cone, it's causes the speaker cone to vibrate. The speaker cone does not generally vibrate at a nice simple frequency as real sound is made up of many waves at various frequencies and amplitudes.

The speaker cone is imperfect. So it's vibration will not perfectly reproduce the original sound (which was stored digitially.) In other words, it won't create the exact same changes in sound pressure as the original (which in many cases consists of artificial sound such as synthesizers and electric guitars, and was never recorded via a microphone to begin with!)

Smaller speakers are better suited for higher freq vibrations. This is why tweeters are smaller.

Larger speakers are better suited for lower freq vibrations.

All speakers are a compromise of cost, efficiency, power handling, size, bass extension (how low they can go,) and accuracy to name the obvious factors.

You can build a really crappy speaker really cheap but it's accuracy will be poor. You can build a smaller speaker, but physics dictates it won't play as low of bass, but it's cheaper to make....etc.

What do you mean by efficiency. power handling, and accuracy.

What do you mean the speaker cone is imperfect all the speaker cone does is move back and forth. Are you saying it cant reproduce a sine wave perfectly?If you played a 500hz wave on two different speakers it couldnt sound different
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post #28 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Basically I disagree when you say sound waves are more complicated than you think. All sounds are just a combination of sine waves theoretically if you could isolate a single frequency when someone was talking you wouldnt understand what there here saying but add a bunch of more waves and you have vowels

Do you agree that when i sing an A note My voice is vibrating at 110,220,330,440, etc. So as long as the speaker can play those frequeicies you get my voice right?
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post #29 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 08:03 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave

Have a read on that and it may help to understand a bit better.

Also have a read on this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
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post #30 of 345 Old 02-14-2011, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I understand sine waves I used to wonder how a speaker could play more then one sound at once but then the more I thought about it I was like the air at a single point can only move one way and then I thought wait your eardum can only move one way at a time.
Then I realized that if you to take a 1hz osicallation and a 2 hz osicallation they just add and subtract on to each other.
So basically I understood how speakers worked all thier doing is moving back and forth thats it seemed preety simple.
It made me wonder how their can be all these speakers if thier can be nothing unique about them, they just move back and forth.
When you talk and someone is in the other room the wall is moving back and forth in the same shape as your voice then the air then their eardrum.
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