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post #601 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 06:35 AM
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Now we are talking about orange juice and mig welders in here? Since those with a personal axe to grind will just not give up (and the mods are going to let this continue on) how about at least quantify what your actual losses are? Drinking a glass of OJ that kills you? Probably have a pretty good case there and some damages to go along with it. Buying a subwoofer that does not defy the laws of physics in YOUR room that was either returned for a refund or sold? Good luck with that.

How long have you been in this hobby that you believe and expect every single specification of every product you either research or buy to be 100% accurate? You must have been born yesterday. There are plenty of sub manufacturers that will not even send out a sample for independent testing. At least this one does.
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post #602 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 06:51 AM
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No, we're talking about products that made specific claims that were false. There doesn't have to be losses in order to have a case. And it's not personal, it's business. Craig I am sure specifies the sub drivers he buys have particular T/S and other characteristics along with mutually agreed upon tolerances. If some of what he buys turn out to have a substantially different characteristic impedance or an F3 an octave higher, does he not deserve compensation of some sort? Further he has not sent out the particular sub in question out for testing. Rather it will be some future crop of subs yet to go into production. This I surmise is for good reason. Should it turn out that nfraso is in error, I would expect him to issue a very public apology and I would demand it. On the other hand if the converse is true, I would expect no less from CHT.

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post #603 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

No, we're talking about products that made specific claims that were false. There doesn't have to be losses in order to have a case. And it's not personal, it's business. Craig I am sure specifies the sub drivers he buys have particular T/S and other characteristics along with mutually agreed upon tolerances. If some of what he buys turn out to have a substantially different characteristic impedance or an F3 an octave higher, does he not deserve compensation of some sort? Further he has not sent out the particular sub in question out for testing. Rather it will be some future crop of subs yet to go into production. This I surmise is for good reason. Should it turn out that nfraso is in error, I would expect him to issue a very public apology and I would demand it. On the other hand if the converse is true, I would expect no less from CHT.

Seaton is doing the same thing for crying out loud! Sending in a new crop of subs rather than the old. This is crap and you know it, there are plenty of people getting flat down low in room which is what people want. Gator wanted single digits and could not get it. Is he getting them now and how? Did he ever move his subs into a corner which helps with extension? I have shown all my subs rolloff profiles and each sub while different was nothing crazy. My room gain had the same effect on each one, I was able to achieve single digits with all of them and the difference was at what level just like any sub. More displacement and more linear or less rolloff means higher spl down low. Even my sealed F-20 horn chamber subs had the same rolloff except much less displacement without the horn loading. Oh, JTR said the OS will 97 dBs at 10hz outside, that is better than any other driver so far, better call the attorney general.
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post #604 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:33 AM
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Sorry chu but I am not buying it. You are picking and choosing piece/parts to suit your personal agenda here nothing more nothing less. At least admit that much. You say its business. If so, at least tell us what part of doing business with Chase has effected you personally.

I have no time to get worked up over the thousands of consumer goods that I have personally purchased in my lifetime that could have been inadvertently or otherwise mislabeled or actually did not deliver or live up to the results I was specifically looking for. I have however been compensated, monetarily or otherwise for many products that some other party decided were not living up to their needs or standards, felt damaged, got a lawyer and filed a lawsuit. In every single one of these cases my compensation was minimal and it appeared the lawyers were the major beneficiaries. Did I get worked up over the product and start posting all over internet forums about it? No not a single one. Did I even feel cheated that there was some legal standard not met by the company I did business with? Not at all. Did I cash the 50 cent check they sent me to compensate me for my loss? Sometimes but not every time because often I just tossed it in a drawer and forgot about it until the freshness date on the check expired. Do I continue to do business with many of these same companies that were found guilty? Absolutely.

I have tons of examples where damages were a primary motivator. In fact I cannot think of any examples where compensation was not a source of motivation in the case. What are the consumer protection lawsuits you are referring to where a party was not seeking any damages or needed to prove injury or damages in order to win their case? Every single one of the negative posts appears to have an agenda based on some damaging effect or loss of personal happiness. The silence is just as deafening regarding the specifics of those.
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post #605 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

No, we're talking about products that made specific claims that were false. There doesn't have to be losses in order to have a case. And it's not personal, it's business. Craig I am sure specifies the sub drivers he buys have particular T/S and other characteristics along with mutually agreed upon tolerances. If some of what he buys turn out to have a substantially different characteristic impedance or an F3 an octave higher, does he not deserve compensation of some sort? Further he has not sent out the particular sub in question out for testing. Rather it will be some future crop of subs yet to go into production. This I surmise is for good reason. Should it turn out that nfraso is in error, I would expect him to issue a very public apology and I would demand it. On the other hand if the converse is true, I would expect no less from CHT.

Seaton is doing the same thing for crying out loud! Sending in a new crop of subs rather than the old. This is crap and you know it, there are plenty of people getting flat down low in room which is what people want. Gator wanted single digits and could not get it. Is he getting them now and how? Did he ever move his subs into a corner which helps with extension? I have shown all my subs rolloff profiles and each sub while different was nothing crazy. My room gain had the same effect on each one, I was able to achieve single digits with all of them and the difference was at what level just like any sub. More displacement and more linear or less rolloff means higher spl down low. Even my sealed F-20 horn chamber subs had the same rolloff except much less displacement without the horn loading. Oh, JTR said the OS will 97 dBs at 10hz outside, that is better than any other driver so far, better call the attorney general.
have there been reported measurements by owners that indicated Seatons's specifications were in error such that he was vastly misstating the product? There may well be crap but it's not blowing from my direction.

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post #606 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

have there been reported measurements by owners that indicated Seatons's specifications were in error such that he was vastly misstating the product? There may well be crap but it's not blowing from my direction.

I don't know, I don't seek out all the problems if any. Not everyone gets single digits with their submersives either and I would bet no sealed sub would in that same room. Major boost would be needed so that means major displacement as well and the power to come with that. Has Gator ever tried corner loading or other subs that got his single digits? If so I have not heard of them. Where have you guys been? Why all of sudden this starting up again. It would seem if owners are unhappy they can return the sub as it has a return policy. In this case Gator kept his subs because he liked them, then he didn't but after he could return them. I have even stated that my subs rolled off faster than other subs I have owned but this is not as dramatic as one would think. I wanted to try higher X-max drivers even if they were smaller to see the difference, the tradeoff is low end without as much boost but now the mid bass lacks a little. It is a good thing I buy enough to get both no matter what sub.
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post #607 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 08:43 AM
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I have never owned any Chase products and chances are I probably will not. What seems odd to me is that with all the controversy surrounding Chase products that people continue to buy them? Is it the pricing? The performance to cost compared to products from other companies?

Bill

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post #608 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 08:53 AM
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OK here is some data of my room using the same location and room at the same LP.

eD 190v'2 using RS meter and no cal files, just C-weighting:



DTS-10's using the same:



Cinema F-20 with new Calibrated mic:



Chase CHT using omnimic:



Same setup using calibrated mic and REW:



eD 13Av2 system: Different processor



Same system different processor and slightly different position of mic:

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post #609 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 09:19 AM
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More obfuscation.

Question #1:

Can anyone provide evidence that I (and everyone else) did not purchase CHT subwoofers under the claims that were made as follows:


"The SS-18.1 has a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 23 Hz to 200 Hz with a natural, 12dB per octave roll-off below 23 Hz to match room gain."


"Now, let's look at our specs. We have told people from day one to expect a 3 dB down point at 23 Hz with the Dayton bass boost employed, and a 12 dB per octave roll off below that point."



Question #2:

Can anyone provide evidence that this new claim, in an attempt to cover up the obvious answer to question # 1, is not a lie?


" I have always specified the unit as +/- 5 dB from 21 to 100 Hz. That was the specification noted in the specifications section of the subwoofer. There was no "silent change" made."



Question #3

In refusing to answer both of the prior questions or attempting to change the subject, how are you not justifying a manufacturer selling products under misleading or dishonest claims (and by a wide margin -> 23Hz -6dB claim versus the 36Hz -6dB reality) and admitting that you are 100% fine with said manufacturer lying in attempt to cover it up?


Anyone?
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post #610 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 09:29 AM
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Bill,
There only appears to be "all the controversy" over the products because of a very small number of people that continue to promote personal agenda's and attack's. The products are excellent in their respective category and I have yet to hear of anyone that did not receive remedy, directly from the owner himself, if they were not satisfied with a purchase and bothered to reach out to him directly. Not indirectly through this forum.

Chase offers excellent price/performance that I think will only continue to get better with recent developments. When I speak to category I am talking about products where performance is placed above other factors like aesthetics. This is primarily where DIY products play and where you tend to find the most hardcore and vocal groups of individuals looking for that last drop of performance at the expense of everything else. In any commercially available product there will always be tradeoff's due to supply chain, manufacturing, shipping etc that the DIY crew does not have to address. Chase has worked really hard to provide some of the benefits of DIY for those that really just do not have the time or inclination to DIY. Many other manufacturers have tried to do this and failed.

Chase and now Chane continues to forge ahead despite the same agenda toting few that seem to surface. It is funny how this tends to happen specifically when things are looking good for the company and the product line. The products offer performance that many just could not otherwise afford to obtain without building it from a box of parts that may or may not deliver any desired benefits and/or results. Are these products for everyone? Of course not, that is why it is nice to have choices. The products work for me because I have the space for them and I could care less that they do not look like my dining room furniture. But I do know I would have to spend thousands of dollars more to get even close to the performance that would still take up the same real estate in my HT and would still have finishes that I could care less about.
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post #611 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

More obfuscation.

Question #1:

Can anyone provide evidence that I (and everyone else) did not purchase CHT subwoofers under the claims that were made as follows:


"The SS-18.1 has a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 23 Hz to 200 Hz with a natural, 12dB per octave roll-off below 23 Hz to match room gain."


"Now, let's look at our specs. We have told people from day one to expect a 3 dB down point at 23 Hz with the Dayton bass boost employed, and a 12 dB per octave roll off below that point."



Question #2:

Can anyone provide evidence that this new claim, in an attempt to cover up the obvious answer to question # 1, is not a lie?


" I have always specified the unit as +/- 5 dB from 21 to 100 Hz. That was the specification noted in the specifications section of the subwoofer. There was no "silent change" made."



Question #3

In refusing to answer both of the prior questions or attempting to change the subject, how are you not justifying a manufacturer selling products under misleading or dishonest claims (and by a wide margin -> 23Hz -6dB claim versus the 36Hz -6dB reality) and admitting that you are 100% fine with said manufacturer lying in attempt to cover it up?


Anyone?

You like to ask questions while not providing answers so I will as well.

1. Do you still own the subwoofers you purchased in question #1?

2. How much did the products cost?

3. How much money are you out of pocket today now that you have determined they did not meet your needs?

4. When you actually determined they did not meet your needs did you discuss this directly with the company?

5. Were you offered any remedy based on how unhappy you were and how unhappy you seem to be today?

6. Have you only been a member of AVS since May of this year?

7. If the answer to question six is no then why?

I will wait for the answer to these questions before I answer your questions #2 and #3.
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post #612 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 09:42 AM
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Here was my near field response:



I am showing about a 28hz -6 dBs point without EQ.

eD 13Av2 near field response:



This shows about a 19hz -6 dB point without EQ and why it had more low end.
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post #613 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

Bill,
There only appears to be "all the controversy" over the products because of a very small number of people that continue to promote personal agenda's and attack's. The products are excellent in their respective category and I have yet to hear of anyone that did not receive remedy, directly from the owner himself, if they were not satisfied with a purchase and bothered to reach out to him directly. Not indirectly through this forum.

Chase offers excellent price/performance that I think will only continue to get better with recent developments. When I speak to category I am talking about products where performance is placed above other factors like aesthetics. This is primarily where DIY products play and where you tend to find the most hardcore and vocal groups of individuals looking for that last drop of performance at the expense of everything else. In any commercially available product there will always be tradeoff's due to supply chain, manufacturing, shipping etc that the DIY crew does not have to address. Chase has worked really hard to provide some of the benefits of DIY for those that really just do not have the time or inclination to DIY. Many other manufacturers have tried to do this and failed.

Chase and now Chane continues to forge ahead despite the same agenda toting few that seem to surface. It is funny how this tends to happen specifically when things are looking good for the company and the product line. The products offer performance that many just could not otherwise afford to obtain without building it from a box of parts that may or may not deliver any desired benefits and/or results. Are these products for everyone? Of course not, that is why it is nice to have choices. The products work for me because I have the space for them and I could care less that they do not look like my dining room furniture. But I do know I would have to spend thousands of dollars more to get even close to the performance that would still take up the same real estate in my HT and would still have finishes that I could care less about.

jd,

Thanks for your response smile.gif. I'm more inclined to buy for aesthetic reasons as well as performance. I can see how Chase products appeal to many people.

Bill

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post #614 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 10:12 AM
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I have no problem answering questions that are relevant to the discussion at hand. Product costs are common knowledge, no I do not still own the units, and again what I had to dump them for versus what I paid bears no relevance to the points raised either.

I've been personally blocked by the owner's email account when we discussed this directly. During this discussion I was told specifically to "keep your charts, graphs, etc ... out of the forum." I was told this was "disruptive". I've been banned from the Chase discussion forums along with others for discussing these issues (which again, have yet to be disputed by anyone here).

In this conversation, yes, an unauthentic offer was given to ship back the units and receive a refund. The expected response to this offer must have been something along the lines of 'no, you don't need to do that, I don't want to ship them back, I can make them work', etc... so he could make a bogus claim that indeed, look everyone, he is happy with them. I told him I would be a fool not to take the offer, and then it was never mentioned again. Shocker.

This is the last thing I was told. Fantastic customer service: "I feel sorry for you. That being said, I have far too much in my life to waste any more time on you. I have blocked future emails"
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post #615 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Here was my near field response:



I am showing about a 28hz -6 dBs point without EQ.

Good, now we're getting somewhere. Two problems:

#1: Why did you use a LPF on the top end? This is the same method Chase has been using to artificially raise the -6dB point. Keep in mind the specification was 23-200Hz +/-3dB, and there is no way you'll see 200Hz down -6dB with that LPF in place. Besides, what sealed systems provide a response specification with an arbitrary low pass filter in place? How could you possibly know where the user will need to cross to his mains?

Remember, the speakers Chase has been selling this entire time have had issues crossing that low, and even Chase has recently admitted:

"We are testing the monitors in our system now, and while Audyssey would set the PRO/SHO to 100-120 Hz in our room, it is setting 80 Hz on the new monitors."

#2: How do you explain an 18dB/octave slope from 20Hz to 10Hz in a close mic?


Edit: JTR S2, Seaton SubM, Rythmik E/F15, PSA XS15/30/Triax all provide frequency response ratings (and graphs) without a LPF in place. This is the standard.
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post #616 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Good, now we're getting somewhere. Two problems:

#1: Why did you use a LPF on the top end? This is the same method Chase has been using to artificially raise the -6dB point. Keep in mind the specification was 23-200Hz +/-3dB, and there is no way you'll see 200Hz down -6dB with that LPF in place. Besides, what sealed systems provide a response specification with an arbitrary low pass filter in place? How could you possibly know where the user will need to cross to his mains?

Remember, the speakers Chase has been selling this entire time have had issues crossing that low, and even Chase has recently admitted:

"We are testing the monitors in our system now, and while Audyssey would set the PRO/SHO to 100-120 Hz in our room, it is setting 80 Hz on the new monitors."

#2: How do you explain an 18dB/octave slope from 20Hz to 10Hz in a close mic?

I never bothered measuring for the top end at that time. I don't have the subs to test anymore so these are old graphs. I said that they did rolloff more than others. So what, JTR said their horn loaded OS could hit 97 dBs at 10hz outside too.

Here was a graph of my second CHT system using the Clone and near field. I don't know why it was so different as I did the same thing as before. The point is to look at the response out to 100hz.

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post #617 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 10:42 AM
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MK, now you're saying the nearfield response is -6dB somewhere under 20Hz! That's obviously not accurate. Two close-mics, even with different amps should not yield wildly different results where both results have serious issues with some basic common sense observations.
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post #618 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 10:55 AM
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I mentioned that this was for the high end not the low end. I do know that the CHT subs were 6 dBs down from the eD 13's so the first one looks right. About 28hz with no EQ. If they were 36hz like you say there is no way I could get the results I did, ever! I would be down 12 dBs from the eD's if yours were correct and that did not happen.
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post #619 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 11:02 AM
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Why would the frequency response change (high end vs low end)? You can't just piece together two different sweeps.

You're missing the fact that if your measurements are inaccurate (which it seems they are) then you never got the "results" you think you did. Your eD response would possibly be equally inaccurate if your measurement system issues (or signal chain issues) complicated the response.

Look at the new response claim without EQ by Chase:

"The SS-18.2P's response curve of +/- 3 dB from 35 Hz to 200 Hz has a natural, 12dB per octave roll-off below 35 Hz"

So your close-mic contradicts theirs on two counts. Both the -6dB point and the roll-off below.
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post #620 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I mentioned that this was for the high end not the low end. I do know that the CHT subs were 6 dBs down from the eD 13's so the first one looks right. About 28hz with no EQ. If they were 36hz like you say there is no way I could get the results I did, ever! I would be down 12 dBs from the eD's if yours were correct and that did not happen.


James, I'm not sure what you're trying to say by posting these graphs?

Are you actually saying that you don't get what nfraso's posts are about?

Suppose that back when you asked me if you'd see an improvement if you went from 4XEds ported to 8xEds sealed, the same thing happened then that nfraso has experienced with the CHT sealed subs.

My answer to you was to post a simulated naked response, and extrapolated in-room response and an enthusiastic YES, you'd see a huge improvement with the new system. (That's actually, in essence, what my answer was)

Now, suppose you did the build and the results were off by more than an octave and worse than the 4xEds ported. Would your response have been to apologize for the difference and tell everyone it sounds great and that you could just EQ it because you have headroom?

Go a step further and imagine that, when you questioned the results vs what I promised (and I did absolutely promise with no reservations or disclaimers) that I replied that you just don't know what you're doing, that you're a liar, that your graphs are faked to make me look bad because you have an agenda. Then imagine that I had asked several posters I know to report any posts you make in reply to my accusations as inappropriate to attempt to get you banned from AVS. Then imagine I filled your PM inbox with insults, calling you "junior", "incompetent", etc.?

So, that would all be cool with you? And, if you ever mentioned it again down the road, it would be cool for me to just tell you to get over it because that was in the past and you're just axe-grinding dead horses?

Here's the scoop on your measurements: The red traces are the Ed system, computer sim and in-room measurements. The dark blue traces are nfraso's close mic measurements (which are accurate) and your in-room measurement.



They make perfect sense. The Eds have a flatter naked response and it's reflected in the in-room comparo. But, I don't get you saying they're the same. A 10dB difference <10 Hz is not anywhere near the same, and you know that. Yes, you can use PEQ to lop off the top end of the CHT stuff, but that's exactly what nfraso said he had to do and was eventually banned for saying. And, where is this "mid bass slam" (whatever that means) if you use EQ to lop it off? And, what difference is the presentation when you DON'T use EQ to flatten it out? Are you saying you don't hear/feel an 8dB average difference <20 Hz?

I also don't get what the comparison of the CHT system in your room to any other system in your room has to do with what nfraso is saying, which is simply that he bought the subs based on the word of Chase who assured him and everyone who can read that the sub's naked response would be (+/-)3dB, 23 Hz and the F3 was actually in the 50s Hz, more than an octave higher.

Sorry, but if a sub manny promises a 20 Hz tune and when a customer gets it it's a 50 Hz tune, get real. Head room is irrelevant. In-room is irrelevant. Whether or not you or anyone else like them as they are is irrelevant. And, when he questions the huge difference and is banned, ridiculed, has his profile altered and sees the manny principle publicly telling people to ignore his insanity and agenda, you (or anyone else) don't get to come into the thread and school him as to what course of action is the correct one.
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post #621 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 12:33 PM
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That is just it though, I have no idea what was said but I do know that the eD's in my room were 6 dBs higher in both response and displacement at 10hz compared to the CHT system. I know that is double the drivers and power so it is significant but not 10 dBs down. I am just saying my results were different in my room. I don't know what happened personally but CHT has never been misleading or not nice to me.
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post #622 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 12:40 PM
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you (or anyone else) don't get to come into the thread and school him as to what course of action is the correct one.

The only thing that should be crystal clear to anyone observing the recent posts in this thread is that the horse is dead and further beatings are pointless and only serve to promote the impression of continued irrational behavior. Insanity is posting the same things over and over under new identities and expecting different results.

Far more interesting for the audience would be submitting the solution to the problem. What did it finally take to achieve the desired in room response? What does it look like now?
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post #623 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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That is just it though, I have no idea what was said but I do know that the eD's in my room were 6 dBs higher in both response and displacement at 10hz compared to the CHT system. I know that is double the drivers and power so it is significant but not 10 dBs down. I am just saying my results were different in my room. I don't know what happened personally but CHT has never been misleading or not nice to me.

Your results were different? The room has nothing to do with it, we're looking at nearfield response. This is what was specified. Your response is different because it's wrong. Two wildly different response measurements should have alerted you to that fact.

You have two responses that contradict each other, and both of which contradict the manufacturers old and recent claims (and everything in between). Of course it's different.

If you're going to maintain the accuracy of your measurement versus mine you have to explain an 18dB/octave slope from 20 to 10Hz or a 30Hz peak and downward slope towards 100Hz.

Are you saying Chase makes a driver that has a -6dB nearfield response at 28Hz without EQ and also has a 3rd order slope on the bottom end? Another set you had with drivers yielding a sub 20Hz -6dB point? And some people got those drivers while others (like me) got one that has a 40Hz -6dB point?

I don't even know what your argument is here.
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Far more interesting for the audience would be submitting the solution to the problem.

It sounds like you're still not following. The problem is that Chase supplied inaccurate, misleading and/or dishonest specifications for their product. The solution begins with that admission.

Since you have no defense for the problem stated, it seems you are in agreement with the admission?
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post #624 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 01:43 PM
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nfraso,
Not in agreement or disagreement. Just very much interested in what you did to achieve the performance and response you were looking for in your setup. I prefer not to look back WRT this great hobby, I just look forward as something better is always coming down the pipe, pushing the boundaries of what is possible in HT.
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post #625 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 01:50 PM
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The only thing that should be crystal clear to anyone observing the recent posts in this thread is that the horse is dead and further beatings are pointless and only serve to promote the impression of continued irrational behavior. Insanity is posting the same things over and over under new identities and expecting different results.

Far more interesting for the audience would be submitting the solution to the problem. What did it finally take to achieve the desired in room response? What does it look like now?

Dead horses have nothing to do with the discussion and, frankly, it's insulting to hear that term ad infinitum.

When a posted problem is not resolved and instead met by ridicule and harassment that leads to being banned that continues to this day, posting the info repeatedly until the derogatory reaction is retracted and a resolution is offered is not insanity. Choosing to ignore a problem that persists as though it has somehow magically gone away is much closer to your descriptive, but that's just my opinion, FWIW, YMMV.

I also reject your insistence on knowing what millions of other members might find interesting to read.
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post #626 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 01:50 PM
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Your results were different? The room has nothing to do with it, we're looking at nearfield response. This is what was specified. Your response is different because it's wrong. Two wildly different response measurements should have alerted you to that fact.

You have two responses that contradict each other, and both of which contradict the manufacturers old and recent claims (and everything in between). Of course it's different.

If you're going to maintain the accuracy of your measurement versus mine you have to explain an 18dB/octave slope from 20 to 10Hz or a 30Hz peak and downward slope towards 100Hz.

Are you saying Chase makes a driver that has a -6dB nearfield response at 28Hz without EQ and also has a 3rd order slope on the bottom end? Another set you had with drivers yielding a sub 20Hz -6dB point? And some people got those drivers while others (like me) got one that has a 40Hz -6dB point?

I don't even know what your argument is here.
It sounds like you're still not following. The problem is that Chase supplied inaccurate, misleading and/or dishonest specifications for their product. The solution begins with that admission.

Since you have no defense for the problem stated, it seems you are in agreement with the admission?

See that is your problem, you are thinking everything is an argument. I am not arguing or making things personal. I said a long time ago that second nearfield was wrong somehow as room gain seemed to be added, it looked awesome though! Back then everyone knew it was off but I used it to show room gain anyways because it is still about the same in my room. I ran a HPF on the first nearfield response because I had my speakers set to small with a 80hz cross, you were implying I was fudging something on purpose. I will ask you this another way, how can one get near single digits response without EQ if they have a sub in which you say is what, 25 dBs down at 10hz? If it was 25 dBs down at 10hz I would not get the response I get and this is why I am showing my in room response. I am showing a 18 dBs rolloff which is not 12 dBs but let's call for a riot for it. Let's shut down Klipsch because their sensitivities are off by 5 dBs or so on their speakers other than the Heritage speakers. There is a way to communicate and why I use the same user name everywhere. You start attacking and get carried away so get banned all the time. You don't have to. You are treating CHT like they are criminals because the spec may be off some but other companies are OK, there are lots of them you know. You keep coming back to the tread of the company you hate. This is like getting your wife to admit she is wrong and will even go so far as getting divorced to prove a point. I have seen that happen too! I am saying if one buys their products and does not like them they get rid of them, period. Move on. I get rid of stuff I like LOL. Again, there are people getting 7hz, 10hz, 15hz, and 20hz response with their sealed CHT subs. There is no way in hell for that to be possible if the -6 dBs point was 36 Hz. I used to use the cal files for my meter and when I just used C-weighting the flat response without EQ became -7 dBs at 10hz. I measured with two different calibrated mics and guess what, the same. 6-7 dBs of boost I was flat to 5-6hz. The eD system required 1-2 dBs of boost to do the same. That is not 25 dBs down at 10hz or I would need 15 dBs of boost and that did not happen.

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I have learned the way of sealed by you! I have tried many different types of designs because of my nature but will always agree that an accurate system could only be done with sealed(trying out IB soon). I would not be where I am today was it not for Ed Mullen(directed me to DIY), Craig's subwoofer list(why I picked the eD 190v2), and you with your know how and data on sealed subs. I know gator has a beef with Craig which is fine, but the type of posting will get him banned again and how is that any good?
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post #627 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 01:53 PM
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The problem is that Chase supplied inaccurate, misleading and/or dishonest specifications for their product.
Not that it's excusable, but it's also far from rare. Set your sights on Klipsch and DefTech, just to name two of the worst offenders, who's sins are far more egregious than Chase. This horse is long past dead, not worthy of further beating.
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post #628 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 01:55 PM
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nfraso,
Not in agreement or disagreement. Just very much interested in what you did to achieve the performance and response you were looking for in your setup. I prefer not to look back WRT this great hobby, I just look forward as something better is always coming down the pipe, pushing the boundaries of what is possible in HT.

If you aren't in disagreement then you are saying either Chase has been dishonest and you don't want to admit it publicly, or you are unsure as of yet but retain the possibility that Chase has been dishonest even though you aren't interested in pursuing a resolution to your opinion.

In either case, how can you look "forward" with this company knowing/suspecting they've been dishonest and will not own up to it? How can anyone?
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post #629 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 02:17 PM
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There is no way in hell for that to be possible if the -6 dBs point was 36 Hz. I used to use the cal files for my meter and when I just used C-weighting the flat response without EQ became -7 dBs at 10hz. I measured with two different calibrated mics and guess what, the same. 6-7 dBs of boost I was flat to 5-6hz. The eD system required 1-2 dBs of boost to do the same. That is not 25 dBs down at 10hz or I would need 15 dBs of boost and that did not happen.

OK, let me get this straight. You believe that your nearfield measurement of 28Hz -6dB without EQ and an 18dB/octave rolloff is accurate, but mine is wrong. Right after admitting you posted a bad measurement and have no explanation for what the cause was. Then you use more of your own questionable measurements to prove that your first measurement was right.

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Not that it's excusable, but it's also far from rare. Set your sights on Klipsch and DefTech, just to name two of the worst offenders, who's sins are far more egregious than Chase. This horse is long past dead, not worthy of further beating.

Seriously?
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Dead horses have nothing to do with the discussion and, frankly, it's insulting to hear that term ad infinitum.

When a posted problem is not resolved and instead met by ridicule and harassment that leads to being banned that continues to this day, posting the info repeatedly until the derogatory reaction is retracted and a resolution is offered is not insanity. Choosing to ignore a problem that persists as though it has somehow magically gone away is much closer to your descriptive, but that's just my opinion, FWIW, YMMV.

I also reject your insistence on knowing what millions of other members might find interesting to read.
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post #630 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 02:21 PM
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OK, let me get this straight. You believe that your nearfield measurement of 28Hz -6dB without EQ and an 18dB/octave rolloff is accurate, but mine is wrong. Right after admitting you posted a bad measurement and have no explanation for what the cause was. Then you use more of your own questionable measurements to prove that your first measurement was right.
Seriously?

Wow, you just spun what I said to prove your point.
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