Official Chase Home Theater Owners Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wow, you just spun what I said to prove your point.

So you believe that both of our different measurements are correct?
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post #632 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I said a long time ago that second nearfield was wrong somehow as room gain seemed to be added, it looked awesome though!

This is you saying that your second nearfield measurement is bad.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

There is no way in hell for that to be possible if the -6 dBs point was 36 Hz.

This is you saying that there is "no way in hell" my nearfield measurement is correct, because mine yielded -6dB at 36Hz (though you aren't comparing apples to apples; this was with Dayton EQ, no EQ was -6dB at 40Hz).

There's no spin here, these are your words.
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post #633 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Dead horses have nothing to do with the discussion and, frankly, it's insulting to hear that term ad infinitum.

When a posted problem is not resolved and instead met by ridicule and harassment that leads to being banned that continues to this day, posting the info repeatedly until the derogatory reaction is retracted and a resolution is offered is not insanity. Choosing to ignore a problem that persists as though it has somehow magically gone away is much closer to your descriptive, but that's just my opinion, FWIW, YMMV.

I also reject your insistence on knowing what millions of other members might find interesting to read.

Dead is dead. I am not familiar with any other term to describe the situation. So if it looks like a dead horse and smells like a dead horse it is in all likelihood - a dead horse. Could care less if you reject an idea that would lead this thread in a positive direction. It does not change nor deter my interest in the solution. In fact even more interested now that there seems to be some mystery surrounding the secrecy of it. It has a ring of "Who shot Kennedy?" to it. Very intriguing. The kind of stuff legends are made of.
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post #634 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

Dead is dead. I am not familiar with any other term to describe the situation. So if it looks like a dead horse and smells like a dead horse it is in all likelihood - a dead horse. Could care less if you reject an idea that would lead this thread in a positive direction. It does not change nor deter my interest in the solution. In fact even more interested now that there seems to be some mystery surrounding the secrecy of it. It has a ring of "Who shot Kennedy?" to it. Very intriguing. The kind of stuff legends are made of.
The "solution" is a Linkwitz Transform Circuit.

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/linkwitz-transform

Dr. Linkwitz describes the circuit here:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/filters.htm#9
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post #635 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 05:30 PM
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I never measured the Dayton amps nearfield so yes, they can be different. I am not sure how though unless getting to 10hz. I showed that incorrect graph to show that I did try to measure to 100 hz, since you implied I was copying CHT or something. I measure the way I listen to movies and that is why the filter was there. I did that measurement for Bosso as he asked I I could. I am not hiding anything I just measure what I have in my room. It is what it is. I want to know how can I get a 6-7 dBs difference at 10hz from my eD's when you are saying it should be 15 dBs different? I also measured a known sub in the DTS-10. My 190v2's were in a bigger enclosure than what Ricci measured. There is enough data for myself to figure out what is what and that -25 dBs at 10hz does not add up in my room. You do realize we are saying the same damn thing from before and we could both just link prior posts. You also realize we both are the only ones who use some kind of measurements so if I stayed out of it you would have a one sided discussion.
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post #636 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Dead horses have nothing to do with the discussion and, frankly, it's insulting to hear that term ad infinitum.

When a posted problem is not resolved and instead met by ridicule and harassment that leads to being banned that continues to this day, posting the info repeatedly until the derogatory reaction is retracted and a resolution is offered is not insanity. Choosing to ignore a problem that persists as though it has somehow magically gone away is much closer to your descriptive, but that's just my opinion, FWIW, YMMV.

I also reject your insistence on knowing what millions of other members might find interesting to read.

Dead is dead. I am not familiar with any other term to describe the situation. So if it looks like a dead horse and smells like a dead horse it is in all likelihood - a dead horse. Could care less if you reject an idea that would lead this thread in a positive direction. It does not change nor deter my interest in the solution. In fact even more interested now that there seems to be some mystery surrounding the secrecy of it. It has a ring of "Who shot Kennedy?" to it. Very intriguing. The kind of stuff legends are made of.

The subject is dead if the product/company is deceased. Since the company is alive and the product floats around the facts are still relevant. Future owners might want to know what they are getting in to.
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post #637 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 06:36 PM
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This is an eminence driver...has anyone got the T/S specs for this driver? Seems like that may illuminate things... :)

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post #638 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I never measured the Dayton amps nearfield so yes, they can be different. I am not sure how though unless getting to 10hz. I showed that incorrect graph to show that I did try to measure to 100 hz, since you implied I was copying CHT or something. I measure the way I listen to movies and that is why the filter was there. I did that measurement for Bosso as he asked I I could. I am not hiding anything I just measure what I have in my room. It is what it is. I want to know how can I get a 6-7 dBs difference at 10hz from my eD's when you are saying it should be 15 dBs different? I also measured a known sub in the DTS-10. My 190v2's were in a bigger enclosure than what Ricci measured. There is enough data for myself to figure out what is what and that -25 dBs at 10hz does not add up in my room. You do realize we are saying the same damn thing from before and we could both just link prior posts. You also realize we both are the only ones who use some kind of measurements so if I stayed out of it you would have a one sided discussion.

If that wasn't the Dayton you measured then it should be even more of a tip-off to you that the measurement is wrong. Your amp should have less low end roll-off than the Dayton, not more. Your graph shows 18dB down from 20 to 10Hz, you know this isn't a correct nearfield response. I've never said anything about the eDs or how they should be X different- especially in your measurements. We've already established that both measurements are inaccurate and only you know what you've changed in your measurement system or signal chain or procedure since then to correct those issues.

Seaton/Sandbagger measured a CHT 18 unit to use as a baseline for modifying SA1000 units and provide the proper response it should have come with to match or better the original specs and resolve the shutdown issues that should have been resolved before Chase shipped a single unit. For one, they confirmed that the nearfield response I measured was more or less identical to what they found. Two, why the heck would they go through all of this hassle if the response was just fine as advertised! tongue.gif

Because Chase is back from it's shutdown on a political whim, I know Seaton is probably no longer pursuing this- but here is more detail on his work with the SA1000 which has shortcomings beyond the poor response as it was shipped from Chase:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The SA-1000 isn't inherently weak down low, but there are some functional limits to duration of the power. As it is shipped, there is a limit to low frequency current delivery related to the cut-out some have observed when pushing some strong demo scenes. Kevin & I sorted out a modification to keep it from shutting down which is used in the Quattro, Turbo and UFW modifications we do. It's no LabGruppen, but they have pretty solid VLF capability available.
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post #639 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 06:53 PM
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So why was my CHT subs down 6-7 dBs at 10hz then, using the same gear and mic? It would seem that they should be down much more than that, no?
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post #640 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

This is an eminence driver...has anyone got the T/S specs for this driver? Seems like that may illuminate things... smile.gif

Ask and ye shall receive.

You probably won't get parameters from Chase, but these are the parameters I measured from one of my drivers:

Re: 6.963 Ohms
Fs: 21.53 Hz
Qts: 0.324
Qes: 0.355
Qms: 3.707
Le: 3.461 mH
Mms: 369.4 g
Vas: 19.78 Cu Ft
SPL: 93.86 1W/1m
BL: 31.31 N/A
Cms: 0.15 mm/N
Sd: 0.115 m^2

v(b) is ~3.4cf per driver (exactly 3.66cf internal dimensions, 0.032cf bracing and I guesstimated driver displacement).

Modeling has it's limitations, but it gets you in the ballpark.

And again, the close-mic measurement. Which actually looks like every other nearfield measurement of a sealed driver:



Bass boost nearfield:

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post #641 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So why was my CHT subs down 6-7 dBs at 10hz then, using the same gear and mic? It would seem that they should be down much more than that, no?

Bosso explained your measurements showing them both on the same graph:
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Here's the scoop on your measurements: The red traces are the Ed system, computer sim and in-room measurements. The dark blue traces are nfraso's close mic measurements (which are accurate) and your in-room measurement.



They make perfect sense. The Eds have a flatter naked response and it's reflected in the in-room comparo. But, I don't get you saying they're the same. A 10dB difference <10 Hz is not anywhere near the same, and you know that. Yes, you can use PEQ to lop off the top end of the CHT stuff, but that's exactly what nfraso said he had to do and was eventually banned for saying. And, where is this "mid bass slam" (whatever that means) if you use EQ to lop it off? And, what difference is the presentation when you DON'T use EQ to flatten it out? Are you saying you don't hear/feel an 8dB average difference <20 Hz?

I also don't get what the comparison of the CHT system in your room to any other system in your room has to do with what nfraso is saying, which is simply that he bought the subs based on the word of Chase who assured him and everyone who can read that the sub's naked response would be (+/-)3dB, 23 Hz and the F3 was actually in the 50s Hz, more than an octave higher.

Sorry, but if a sub manny promises a 20 Hz tune and when a customer gets it it's a 50 Hz tune, get real. Head room is irrelevant. In-room is irrelevant. Whether or not you or anyone else like them as they are is irrelevant. And, when he questions the huge difference and is banned, ridiculed, has his profile altered and sees the manny principle publicly telling people to ignore his insanity and agenda, you (or anyone else) don't get to come into the thread and school him as to what course of action is the correct one.
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post #642 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:29 PM
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This shouldn't surprise anyone, but a modeled response using measured parameters (and bass boost PEQ simulated per spec) starts to look pretty damn close to a nearfield measurement done properly:



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post #643 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 07:47 PM
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So you guys are saying that my in room matches your close mic?

Bosso,
I am saying after boosting the CHT's I can get them to sound like the eD's. The eD's still has much more output under 20hz though but it was headroom for me.
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post #644 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So you guys are saying that my in room matches your close mic?

Bosso,
I am saying after boosting the CHT's I can get them to sound like the eD's. The eD's still has much more output under 20hz though but it was headroom for me.

Right, he took my clean nearfield response of the CHT 18 and used the sim of your eDs. Then overlaying both in-room responses you can see that the difference at your LP relates fairly well to those naked responses.
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post #645 of 854 Old 10-28-2013, 08:29 PM
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Circus? and Monkey act? really??

Looks like valid points are presented by both nfraso and Bosso. Name calling doesn't change that. If it bothers you that much, just block them. I think it has value to show prospective buyers how Chase has operated.

I considered them when I was shopping for a subwoofer, approx 3 years ago, mainly because I lived in Erie for many years. At the time, they had some finish issues that led to them selling all their product as B-stock. I looked elsewhere. I came back to this thread after seeing the merger announcement, but I don't see anything that would compel me to consider them for any future purchases, were I in the market.

of course, IMO, and YMMV
Joseph

If you want a really good one, you'll have to learn a foreign language. german, for instance...
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post #646 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 02:18 AM
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We're not ever going to see the issues regarding the sealed subs from CHT resolved when it comes to the manufacturer making a sincere and earnest effort to address the specific claims of performance when sold and used with the Dayton amp not being substantiated when they are measured by owners.

While nfraso and others  have stayed squarely on topic and been very focused, the same cannot be said for the owner of CHT. There have been numerous attempts at diversion that have nothing to do with the specific claim. Among those are pointing to satisfied owners, some of whom have enjoyed their sealed subs and even spoken out stating they're favorably predisposed to CHT.

Attempts have been made to use the defense that there are other companies who misstate their specifications which is nothing more than attempting to justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. As if anyone would use such warped thinking when it comes to their children!

Attempts have been made by looking to compare their specs to other companies specs which are not even written or presented the same.

The owner has repeatedly contradicted himself claiming this and that spec and then denying he ever made particular statements when Internet references and screen captures state otherwise. Attempts to reconcile matters on the owner's forum have been met with obfuscation and when a person refuses to accept the rationale even though it doesn't address the issue they are demeaned, banned, have their posts deleted, etc. attempts to take the matter privately by email exchange fare no better.

So there will be no closure in this particular matter. It is my sincere hope that the partnership between CHT and TheAudioInsider - Chane - results in such improvements as I stated earlier and what specifications as may be provided are clearly written and vetted. Along those lines, it would please me greatly if Craig was no longer banned so that he may participate at AVS.

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post #647 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 07:30 AM
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I am a Tweak City Audio & Chase Home Theater customer and still have (5) PRO-10 speakers and (4) 18" sealed subs using the Eminence driver. My first experience with the subs was the CS-18.T with the Dayton amp...two 18" sealed subs wired for a 4 ohm load to the amp. My initial impression was very positive but I was not impressed with the under 20Hz performance with the Dayton amp and traded it to CHT for a EP-4000 amp that was head and shoulders better and never shutdown while running demanding LFE demos. I used my DCX-2496 EQ to create a LP filter to help boost the low end and the subs started to sound very poorly when playing demanding scenes (20Hz and under) at reference levels.

I added another (2) SS-18.1 subs to the mix along with another EP-4000 amp and noticed a big improvement as well as a HUGE boost to the look of the sub. I placed the four subs around my room to even out the response and dialed them in with OmniMic to be level with my main speakers. I could still find the limit of the system quite easily and had to dial back the LP filter to keep the sound quality high and not worry about the subs sounding bad when a new, hot LFE movie showed up. At this point, I sent an e-mail with the spec # to Eminence requesting the T/S parameters and they replied with the following:

Re: 6.82 Ohms
Le: 2.07 mH
QM: 8.25
QE: 0.28
QT: 0.27
Xmax: 11.11 mm
Pmax: 300 Watts
Bl: 21.12 Tm
Coil Diameter: 3.00 Inches
Gap Height: 0.375 Inches
Efficiency: 2.61 %
fs: 21.4 Hz
Mms: 137.8 grams
Mmd: 114.8 grams
Cms: 0.401 mm/N
Rms: 2.247 N*sec/m
Vas: 777.9 liters
SD: 1169.0 cm^2
VD: 1299.1 cm^3
EBP: 75.4
Magnet Weight: 120 ounces
Winding Width: 1.250 inches
SPL: 96.2 dB 1W-1m

Three things jumped out at me. First was the SPL showing a very sensitive driver but I was concerned about the Xmax at 11.11mm and the Power Max of 300 watts. At this point, I stopped trying to push for better extension in my 3000 cubic feet room on a cement floor and dialed things back on the amp and ditched the LP filter on the DCX to keep the subs well within their limits. IMHO, this driver is better suited for a ported design for home theater but I love the sound of the sealed box running in the 40Hz to 150Hz range. I added a HUGE ported sub designed by Josh Ricci to handle from 10Hz to 40Hz and let the CHT subs pound away from 40Hz to the 150Hz crossover.

I finally caught the DIY/AIY bug and ordered (3) Fusion 12 speakers and (4) SI 18" subs along with the 4 cubic feet flat packs from Erich at DIY Sound Group. I moved the entire CHT system to a separate area (4000 cubic feet on a suspended floor) that my wife uses for Yoga, Meditation and Trance Dance and it POUNDS the music out for her clients...she even likes the wood "feet" from the CS-18.T! biggrin.gif

As always...IMHO, YMMV.
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post #648 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I am a Tweak City Audio & Chase Home Theater customer and still have (5) PRO-10 speakers and (4) 18" sealed subs using the Eminence driver. My first experience with the subs was the CS-18.T with the Dayton amp...two 18" sealed subs wired for a 4 ohm load to the amp. My initial impression was very positive but I was not impressed with the under 20Hz performance with the Dayton amp and traded it to CHT for a EP-4000 amp that was head and shoulders better and never shutdown while running demanding LFE demos. I used my DCX-2496 EQ to create a LP filter to help boost the low end and the subs started to sound very poorly when playing demanding scenes (20Hz and under) at reference levels.

I added another (2) SS-18.1 subs to the mix along with another EP-4000 amp and noticed a big improvement as well as a HUGE boost to the look of the sub. I placed the four subs around my room to even out the response and dialed them in with OmniMic to be level with my main speakers. I could still find the limit of the system quite easily and had to dial back the LP filter to keep the sound quality high and not worry about the subs sounding bad when a new, hot LFE movie showed up. At this point, I sent an e-mail with the spec # to Eminence requesting the T/S parameters and they replied with the following:

Re: 6.82 Ohms
Le: 2.07 mH
QM: 8.25
QE: 0.28
QT: 0.27
Xmax: 11.11 mm
Pmax: 300 Watts
Bl: 21.12 Tm
Coil Diameter: 3.00 Inches
Gap Height: 0.375 Inches
Efficiency: 2.61 %
fs: 21.4 Hz
Mms: 137.8 grams
Mmd: 114.8 grams
Cms: 0.401 mm/N
Rms: 2.247 N*sec/m
Vas: 777.9 liters
SD: 1169.0 cm^2
VD: 1299.1 cm^3
EBP: 75.4
Magnet Weight: 120 ounces
Winding Width: 1.250 inches
SPL: 96.2 dB 1W-1m

Three things jumped out at me. First was the SPL showing a very sensitive driver but I was concerned about the Xmax at 11.11mm and the Power Max of 300 watts. At this point, I stopped trying to push for better extension in my 3000 cubic feet room on a cement floor and dialed things back on the amp and ditched the LP filter on the DCX to keep the subs well within their limits. IMHO, this driver is better suited for a ported design for home theater but I love the sound of the sealed box running in the 40Hz to 150Hz range. I added a HUGE ported sub designed by Josh Ricci to handle from 10Hz to 40Hz and let the CHT subs pound away from 40Hz to the 150Hz crossover.

I finally caught the DIY/AIY bug and ordered (3) Fusion 12 speakers and (4) SI 18" subs along with the 4 cubic feet flat packs from Erich at DIY Sound Group. I moved the entire CHT system to a separate area (4000 cubic feet on a suspended floor) that my wife uses for Yoga, Meditation and Trance Dance and it POUNDS the music out for her clients...she even likes the wood "feet" from the CS-18.T! biggrin.gif

As always...IMHO, YMMV.


Did it take a lot of tweaking to get the ported sub and sealed subs to play well together?
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post #649 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Did it take a lot of tweaking to get the ported sub and sealed subs to play well together?

Hi carp, not really...as long as you have measurement software and the feature set of the DCX or something similar. I smooth the FR of the big sub by itself and use the delay feature on the DCX to time align with the 4 sealed subs behind the AT screen. I can play with different filters and/or crossovers in the DCX to set the range that I want the ported sub to play as well as the range the I want the sealed subs to play. Audyssey XT32 set the sub distance spot on to the front 4 subs even though the ported sub is 1/2 the distance.

I fire up OmniMic and check the splice with the left/right speakers as well as the center speaker...play around with the speaker crossover until it looks good and call it a day. It takes about one hour or so including running an Audyssey measurement...smile.gif
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post #650 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 02:02 PM
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Wow 11mm xmax. That's terrible. I thought it was like 18mm or something like that. If its 18mm, then it's one hell of a value. They should put some Si in it.
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post #651 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I am a Tweak City Audio & Chase Home Theater customer and still have (5) PRO-10 speakers and (4) 18" sealed subs using the Eminence driver. My first experience with the subs was the CS-18.T with the Dayton amp...two 18" sealed subs wired for a 4 ohm load to the amp. My initial impression was very positive but I was not impressed with the under 20Hz performance with the Dayton amp and traded it to CHT for a EP-4000 amp that was head and shoulders better and never shutdown while running demanding LFE demos. I used my DCX-2496 EQ to create a LP filter to help boost the low end and the subs started to sound very poorly when playing demanding scenes (20Hz and under) at reference levels.

I added another (2) SS-18.1 subs to the mix along with another EP-4000 amp and noticed a big improvement as well as a HUGE boost to the look of the sub. I placed the four subs around my room to even out the response and dialed them in with OmniMic to be level with my main speakers. I could still find the limit of the system quite easily and had to dial back the LP filter to keep the sound quality high and not worry about the subs sounding bad when a new, hot LFE movie showed up. At this point, I sent an e-mail with the spec # to Eminence requesting the T/S parameters and they replied with the following:

Re: 6.82 Ohms
Le: 2.07 mH
QM: 8.25
QE: 0.28
QT: 0.27
Xmax: 11.11 mm
Pmax: 300 Watts
Bl: 21.12 Tm
Coil Diameter: 3.00 Inches
Gap Height: 0.375 Inches
Efficiency: 2.61 %
fs: 21.4 Hz
Mms: 137.8 grams
Mmd: 114.8 grams
Cms: 0.401 mm/N
Rms: 2.247 N*sec/m
Vas: 777.9 liters
SD: 1169.0 cm^2
VD: 1299.1 cm^3
EBP: 75.4
Magnet Weight: 120 ounces
Winding Width: 1.250 inches
SPL: 96.2 dB 1W-1m

Three things jumped out at me. First was the SPL showing a very sensitive driver but I was concerned about the Xmax at 11.11mm and the Power Max of 300 watts. At this point, I stopped trying to push for better extension in my 3000 cubic feet room on a cement floor and dialed things back on the amp and ditched the LP filter on the DCX to keep the subs well within their limits. IMHO, this driver is better suited for a ported design for home theater but I love the sound of the sealed box running in the 40Hz to 150Hz range. I added a HUGE ported sub designed by Josh Ricci to handle from 10Hz to 40Hz and let the CHT subs pound away from 40Hz to the 150Hz crossover.

I finally caught the DIY/AIY bug and ordered (3) Fusion 12 speakers and (4) SI 18" subs along with the 4 cubic feet flat packs from Erich at DIY Sound Group. I moved the entire CHT system to a separate area (4000 cubic feet on a suspended floor) that my wife uses for Yoga, Meditation and Trance Dance and it POUNDS the music out for her clients...she even likes the wood "feet" from the CS-18.T! biggrin.gif

As always...IMHO, YMMV.

laugsbach, thanks for sharing. :)

 

11mm xmax actually makes sense to me given the many demos we sat through at your house. I remember the Dayton/CHT 18.1 combination always being very touchy to make a bad sound on the famous ULF scenes. It either made a bad sound, or the Dayton would just completely shut off due to clipping.

 

The EP4000s did help a lot in solving for the clipping, but the CHT's would still distort much too soon IMO based on what was being claimed and relative to my experience with the other commercial 18in sub offerings at the time (eD A7S-450). Now with you having upgraded your system to DIY and are using the SI's, we can say that we were just pushing the CHT's beyond its limits. The difference between your 4 CHTs and your 4 SIs are night and day! Much more weight to the bottom end, and you aren't having to worry about turning up the volume too high to avoid the CHT bad sounds! (Well...until you set the Dom house curve anyway ;)).

 

I think your spot on with using these drivers with a vented design. Makes sense. I think the sealed design is good for those interested in 20 and above. It certainly excels at 35 and above. However, for ULF, there are probably better options. Certainly, rooms like MK with lots of gain, it doesn't matter that much.

 

YMMV

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post #652 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So you guys are saying that my in room matches your close mic?

Bosso,
I am saying after boosting the CHT's I can get them to sound like the eD's. The eD's still has much more output under 20hz though but it was headroom for me.

James,

I have no issues with your systems or your enjoyment of them. My issues are with Chase and the wild claims he made and the obviously doctored or terribly bad measurements he posted in poor attempts to sell those claims and measurements as accurate.

He attempted to favorably compare a pair of his drivers to the RE-XXX, Mal-21 and LMS Ultra 5400 repeatedly over the course of more than a year. To quote Chase: "When designing the CS-18.2, both the LMS-5400 and the MAL-21 were used as goals, in terms of achieving performance".

You can spin that however it's conceivable to spin it but the bottom line is that it's a joke of a statement and nowhere near true from any angle.

According to actual specs from folks who have measured the driver and the subs and from the manufacturer of the drivers, your CHT system of 8-18" drivers had the displacement capability of 2-LMS Ultra 5400s or 2-MAL-21s, so using Chase's 2-CS-18 drivers to 1-RE-XXX or LMS 5400, in your case it would be 4 of those vs your 8-CS-18s. That equals a no-contest floor-mopping.

This was repeatedly brought to his attention by myself, Kevin Haskins, Jpmst, Lil Gator, Josh, Michael Hurd, Penngray and others, as soon as he first made the claims by jacking a MAL-21 thread in the DIY forum:



A year later, he posted another similar simulation showing again his drivers vs this time the TC Sounds LMS5400 18" and Acoustic Elegance's AV-15H driver.



As you can see, in that post he promised a close mic measurement of his sub. Remember, in the first post shown above, Chase claimed that "Our actual measurements confirm the accuracy of the WIN ISD model".

The next day, Chase posted this measurement:



So, here's the guy who supposedly designed the CS-18 subs (that's a whole nuther saga) after he posted that his actual measurements of the actual sub confirmed the accuracy of the simulations he was posting for over a year and measuring his sub "With no EQ or BASS BOOST applied.

To anyone who bought this kettle of fish, here's nfraso's close mic of his actual CS subs vs the Chase WIN ISD simulation (which Chase conveniently cut off at 70 Hz) vs Chase's actual measurement of his actual sub and I've included a piston excursion calculation comparing 8 CS drivers vs 2 MAL and LMS drivers at X-max (never mind the RE-XX, which is a displacement monster):



The Chase measurement (keep in mind that this is the guy who created a list wherein he "measured" dozens of commercial subs and rated them over a period of nearly a decade), as anyone who is even vaguely familiar with such measurements can plainly see, is a measurement of a sub that does indeed and undoubtedly have EQ applied. One look at the trace would tell a guy who extensively modeled and built the sub that it is not an accurate result.

nfraso's measurement is within 1dB of Chase's sim (to 70 Hz where Cahse cut the graph off), which proves beyond any doubt that Chase had known the actual FR of his sub. Instead of showing that in his measurement, he doctored (most likely) or completely botched the measurement, which is off by >6dB, so as not even to reflect a sealed sub of any kind, let alone the CS sub. He then posted it in spite of those facts and proceeded to defend it by belittling anyone who questioned it.

The piston excursion calculators prediction of output at 10 Hz using 8 of the CS subs vs 2 MAL-21" and vs 2 LMS5400-18", each at rated X-max, should say all there needs to be said of this absurd comparison. Of course, there are many more variables to consider, but the excursion displacement capability below 20 Hz is pretty much where to begin if one is really using a MAL-21 as a model "…in terms of achieving performance…".

I can easily get past the silly and Chase assertions that I know nothing about sealed subs (sorry folks but that's actually pretty funny stuff), that I'm out to get him, that I'm trying to sell subwoofers, that I like to argue and the fact that he tried earnestly to have me banned from this forum, or whatever other diversion tactics he used and continues to use. That's his MO for many years. It will take a LOT more than a guy like Chase to put a dent in my reputation as a sealed subwoofer enthusiast with members who can read.

My issue is and always has been his comparisons to the worlds top drivers, the grossly inaccurate claims of frequency response, output and all performance-related claims, as well as the underhanded methods employed to defend those claims.

And, James, I sincerely apologize if I seem to be directing any of this at you. It's just that I'm not buying your defense of Chase just because he's really nice to you and you thought 8 of his drivers in your 2000 cubes concrete HT sounded spiffy with EQ or whatever. That's not what nfraso, myself and others have been saying at all.
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Are the drivers for the CH and SS subs the same because I believe the website states that the p-p Xmax for the SS18.1 is 1.5” (38mm) which is quite a bit more than th 11mm value that Eminence supplied.

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post #654 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 04:19 PM
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Are the drivers for the CH and SS subs the same

Yes...
Quote:
because I believe the website states that the p-p Xmax for the SS18.1 is 1.5” (38mm) which is quite a bit more than th 11mm value that Eminence supplied.

Here is the quote from Josh about this driver: The driver is stated at having an xmax of about 19mm one way. During testing this seems about right maybe slightly less but the xmech of the driver follows very quickly and may not be more than 20mm itself.

In my room with my equipment and bass desire, I think that the driver starts to sound bad somewhere between 12mm to 18mm and when it gets to 19mm you will know it. I looked at the 19mm as a Xmech spec and not Xmax. The SI driver has a 22.5 Xmax spec and physically is a more robust driver than the Eminence in the CHT subs.
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post #655 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 07:04 PM
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You see, this simply puzzles me as to why there's such a large discrepancy here. I figure that Eminence must have a particular procedure and criteria they use to define xmax. Whether it's the same for all vendors, I don't know. So that begs the question of how did CHT come up with their value? I kind of doubt they have the expertise to make such measurements so maybe what they did is use the xmech number and just subtract a couple. Of mm from it and just call it day.From the POV of marketing, a larger number looks better but if it's not realizable in practice then won't performance fall short of expectations? Further, if an inflated xmax is used as a parameter in the modelling programs, won't that lead to some erroneous data? I'm hoping that someone with knowledge in this area can comment on what I said here.

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post #656 of 854 Old 10-29-2013, 08:52 PM
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At this point you can see the picture coming together. Chase spent time in WinISD screwing around with this Eminence driver trying to find a way to make them marketable. The LMS-5400 was king, he figured he could sell a pair of these things in some cheap cabs for less and the DIY crowd would drool. So since we've got 38mm of xmax on the LMS, and he knew he had ~20mm of xmech on these Eminence drivers to work with, he figured he'd call it 19mm xmax, they could travel that far after all, and nobody would be the wiser. Now a pair matches the displacement if he targets 19mm in his sims, and the only thing lacking is a brutal cliff of a response.

Unfortunately the cat was already out of the bag, after all he had posted that sim showing the steep response and claimed it matched his measurements! Where are we at in that sim, -6dB at 48Hz? Well that just won't do. So we'll use that sim and show it to people when we want to boast "max output" capability, uber superiour midbass slam sensitivity, etc... Then when folks start getting itchy about the response and how this would integrate into a system with some ULF desired, let's chop off that top end of the graph, add a LPF, throw some theoretical hidden EQ to make for a sharp angled awkward naked response and claim we're close enough to the big boy drivers.

With things not quite smelling right, questions arise. More measurements follow, more attempts to doctor things and nothing quite matches up with one another. Why? Oh let's just say there's this or that issue with this measurement rig, hey I'll try another. You know what, I'll do it point by point in TrueRTA. Hey, what about that new fangled Omnimic thing that's all the rage. Well, different systems give different results... facing the sun at different angles and of course in different lunar cycles. It's all quite legitimate and differences are easily explainable and obvious if you have the experience I do.

--

You see, that's why this whole thing matters. When we find out you've obviously played fast and loose with your specifications, admitted it by changing them later and then lied to hide ever having the original "embellishments", suddenly it's not so hard to believe that the rest of the claims along the way may have been tweaked a bit here and there. What is there to believe?

What should we believe going forward and why?
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My issue is and always has been his comparisons to the worlds top drivers, the grossly inaccurate claims of frequency response, output and all performance-related claims, as well as the underhanded methods employed to defend those claims.


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post #658 of 854 Old 10-30-2013, 06:41 AM
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That was a good summation, nfraso. I had forgotten about the comparisons that were made to the LMS and its 38mm xmax. The only way Chase could place in people's minds that his sealed sub remotely could be compared would be to create a scenario where the effective xmax was almost identical. Kind of like one of the premises in the movie, Moneyball - if you need to replace a player that gave you 180 hits then you needed to find some combination of players whose hits, when added together, gave you that same number. As Laugbach pointed out, the xmax for the driver that CHT was using was 11mm. So Chase would have to use 3 1/2 subs to give you the equivalent of one sub based on the LMS.

Well, that's not going to work because the proposed price advantage isn't compelling anymore. The amount of people who are willing to have 4 large boxes in their HT room is less than those who want 2. After all, with 2 you can then talk about the advantages of multiple sealed subs over just one. As Ricci pointed out in his review of the CHT VS sub, a ported offering that uses the same driver as the sealed, the way the driver is constructed gives it a certain amount of forgiveness. But realistically, that only works in a ported design because the output of the sub around the tuning point of 19 Hz doesn't require the driver to have to move much at all. The port is what's doing the heavy lifting. OTOH, in a sealed sub, there is no port to do the heavy lifting and the output is now totally dependent on driver excursion.

Getting back to the sealed sub, the solution to marketing and positioning the product as a quasi effective competitor to the LMS and others was to simply state the xmax of the driver as something other than what it in fact was - take xmech and just knock off a mm or two and now we're in the ballpark. Never mind that there's now precious little margin before the driver goes into arythmia. We can now play the game of multiple subs giving smoothed response. When questioned about the discrepencies between measured and CHT stated values, we can deflect by diversion. Feign ignorance of how to implement microphone calibration files in the software, a thought that all ought to find abhorrent from a company that has historically prided itself on measurement. Present data using different software packages. Different microphones, different scales, show this part of the graph then that one, point to satisfied customers. It doesn't matter if the hamburgers were made with pink slime and not 100% freshly ground beef. Despite being deceived, they're satisfied since ignorance is bliss. Then let's try and paint the people who point this out as naysayers, malcontents, people with agendas, and dead horse beaters instead of being resolutely focused on a topic that has been met with evasion.

You ask, "Going forward, what should we believe and why?" Forward means the new entity known as Chane. I expect things to be better. But this entity has to be treated as a business and one where Craig cannot say that he derives no income or that some of his subs are sold at cost. While Chase derives an adequate income from his other business ventures, AFAIK, Lane does not have a sugar mama. But in all honesty, I think a lot depends on what Lane can bring to the table when it comes to future products like the subs and speakers that have been rebadged. I don't worry when it comes to anything he's developed. He's got a solid pedigree and has shown over the years that he can marry art and science. For the subs, I guess we will have to see what products are sent for outside testing and Ricci's comments. I hope we don't see comments where the xmax and xmech are virtually indistinguishable.

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post #659 of 854 Old 10-30-2013, 09:29 AM
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I had the SHO-10's for a year and absolutely loved them for movies. My biggest issue was their complete inability to play to 80hz- contrary to what their site says. Despite that, I have no issue recommending them if someone is unwilling to glue a few panels together, paint a box, and call it a seos.

Is it normal for small companies to purchased ready-made goods from China and market them as their own? And then introduce them as the fix to the SHO's weaknesses?

Anyone who witnessed Craig Chase's meltdown of a year or two ago would have a hard time sending him thousands of dollars. Hopefully Jon Lane and Arx guys can right the ship. Would love to hear the A5's someday.
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post #660 of 854 Old 10-30-2013, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by a|F View Post

Is it normal for small companies to purchased ready-made goods from China and market them as their own? And then introduce them as the fix to the SHO's weaknesses?

Anyone who witnessed Craig Chase's meltdown of a year or two ago would have a hard time sending him thousands of dollars. Hopefully Jon Lane and Arx guys can right the ship. Would love to hear the A5's someday.
It's certainly not unknown but I think CHT has been fairly straightforward that the new speakers were from an exiting line of PA speakers (nfraso gave a link earlier) but labeled with the Chase name. One thing you have to look for is that the speakers clearly and unambiguously state their country of origin. In the US that means that 'Made in China' is acceptable but 'Made in PRC' is not. Often you might see some company state that they've designed the product. Well, if you've designed the label, the logo, the font, sundry markingings, etc. that constitutes designing. If you specify Solen capacitors of the same value as their Chinese counterparts, that's designing. That said, seem to recall CHT saying that they've made some minor changes to the speaker like having the vendor alter the driver so that there's a mm or so extra xmax and a slightly lower FR limit. While that may be the case, I'm of the opinion this is exaggeration and tall tale telling. Usually, to make such fundamental changes requires pretty large production orders because now the company you're buying from loses their economies of scale advantage. Of course, without having the speakers to test you're left with his word.

The public meltdown, much of which has been removed or edited on their website, was unfortunate. Rather than rehash the details, I'll just repeat that the Chase needs to sit on some of his posts for several days to avoid such theatrics.

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