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post #181 of 866 Old 07-12-2012, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Congrats on the new subs! cool.gif You are clearly a person with good taste in subwoofers... biggrin.gif

Well, your testimonial and the pictures of how the SS 18.1s look in your setup did influence me biggrin.gif

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post #182 of 866 Old 07-12-2012, 08:48 AM
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Cool... cool.gif
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post #183 of 866 Old 07-13-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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Congrats on your new subs, I hope you enjoy them. As an Outlaw owner myself I think a second LFM-1EX would have been a great alternative, and I have never had a problem with the plexi tops, they look great. Twin Outlaw LFM-1EX subs, when co-located, would give 103.5 dbs at 16hz, according to Ricci, and 108.1 dbs at 20 hz. I'm interested in how your subs measure, would you please provide a link to a comparative review? Thanks, and good luck with your new subs.

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
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post #184 of 866 Old 07-13-2012, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Congrats on your new subs, I hope you enjoy them. As an Outlaw owner myself I think a second LFM-1EX would have been a great alternative, and I have never had a problem with the plexi tops, they look great. Twin Outlaw LFM-1EX subs, when co-located, would give 103.5 dbs at 16hz, according to Ricci, and 108.1 dbs at 20 hz. I'm interested in how your subs measure, would you please provide a link to a comparative review? Thanks, and good luck with your new subs.
http://www.data-bass.com/systems

Off topic but I would choose the 1 port over the 2 port all day. Less THD but why do they test at 20%THD? I never listen to subs with that much THD. However, I realize this is max burst and THD is held under 30% I believe and it is the same for all subs.

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post #185 of 866 Old 07-13-2012, 06:55 PM
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Off topic but I would choose the 1 port over the 2 port all day. Less THD but why do they test at 20%THD? I never listen to subs with that much THD. However, I realize this is max burst and THD is held under 30% I believe and it is the same for all subs.

BTW, Ricci has a CHT sub now.

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post #186 of 866 Old 07-13-2012, 09:25 PM
 
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BTW, Ricci has a CHT sub now.

Anxiously awaiting the results.
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post #187 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Congrats on your new subs, I hope you enjoy them. As an Outlaw owner myself I think a second LFM-1EX would have been a great alternative, and I have never had a problem with the plexi tops, they look great. Twin Outlaw LFM-1EX subs, when co-located, would give 103.5 dbs at 16hz, according to Ricci, and 108.1 dbs at 20 hz.

I haven't optimized placement nor EQ yet with the SS 18.1s, but so far, it doesn't seem like to me that two EXs would be equivalent to dual 18.1s for my listening preferences. Since I have one EX and two 18.1s in my room right now to experiment with, my direct experience trumps speculation from someone without experience with the CHT subs.

Also, I wasn't interested in the extra output from a single position; I bought dual subs for smoothing out the in room response. But if I was, I wouldn't try to stack two downfiring EXs on top of each other to achieve that. I simply would have gotten one bigger sub to replace my current EX. And if someone was interested in co-locating two 12" ported subs, I'd point them toward the PB12 or VTF-3 since their designs are more conducive to stacking.

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post #188 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 08:00 AM
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Anxiously awaiting the results.
I'm looking forward to the results, too. If they're good, my subs won't sound any better; if they're bad, my subs won't sound any worse. smile.gif Nevertheless, it'll be interesting to see the objectively-measured numbers.
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post #189 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 09:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I haven't optimized placement nor EQ yet with the SS 18.1s, but so far, it doesn't seem like to me that two EXs would be equivalent to dual 18.1s for my listening preferences. Since I have one EX and two 18.1s in my room right now to experiment with, my direct experience trumps speculation from someone without experience with the CHT subs.
Also, I wasn't interested in the extra output from a single position; I bought dual subs for smoothing out the in room response. But if I was, I wouldn't try to stack two downfiring EXs on top of each other to achieve that. I simply would have gotten one bigger sub to replace my current EX. And if someone was interested in co-locating two 12" ported subs, I'd point them toward the PB12 or VTF-3 since their designs are more conducive to stacking.

I don't co-locate my twin Outlaws, I used the numbers for illustrative purposes only. Subtract 3 dbs from those numbers and you'll see what I have found, plenty of output and true extension. I believe that those sealed subs start to roll off around 30 - 32 hz or so (maybe higher?), and with the 12 db per octave slope they would be down 12 db (or more) at 16hz, compared to 2db for the Outlaw, interesting. Too bad you never tried twin Outlaws, you could have picked up another at the Outlaw B-stock sale for $579 delivered and then you'd know first hand what the twins could do.
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post #190 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I'm looking forward to the results, too. If they're good, my subs won't sound any better; if they're bad, my subs won't sound any worse. smile.gif Nevertheless, it'll be interesting to see the objectively-measured numbers.

The sub you refer to is the ported one, correct? I would guess that it would post some decent numbers, we will see. The subs in question here are the sealed version, which would have some very different numbers if they are ever tested. Sealed subs have an inherent disadvantage with extension, in that the design typically requires eq and room gain to acieve it. This makes the integration of driver, amp and eq critical to good performance, as room gain can't be counted on. Many sealed designs, Hsu, Empire, Submersive for a few, use this systematic design approach. I would think it would be much more difficult to get this type of performance using a generic amplifier or stand alone pro amp. I wonder if the sealed design will ever be tested, that would be more helpful in comparing these subs to the Outlaws, which have shown they can deliver true 16 hz performance.
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post #191 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

The sub you refer to is the ported one, correct? I would guess that it would post some decent numbers, we will see. The subs in question here are the sealed version, which would have some very different numbers if they are ever tested. Sealed subs have an inherent disadvantage with extension, in that the design typically requires eq and room gain to acieve it. This makes the integration of driver, amp and eq critical to good performance, as room gain can't be counted on. Many sealed designs, Hsu, Empire, Submersive for a few, use this systematic design approach. I would think it would be much more difficult to get this type of performance using a generic amplifier or stand alone pro amp. I wonder if the sealed design will ever be tested, that would be more helpful in comparing these subs to the Outlaws, which have shown they can deliver true 16 hz performance.
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The sub you refer to is the ported one, correct? I would guess that it would post some decent numbers, we will see. The subs in question here are the sealed version, which would have some very different numbers if they are ever tested. Sealed subs have an inherent disadvantage with extension, in that the design typically requires eq and room gain to acieve it. This makes the integration of driver, amp and eq critical to good performance, as room gain can't be counted on. Many sealed designs, Hsu, Empire, Submersive for a few, use this systematic design approach. I would think it would be much more difficult to get this type of performance using a generic amplifier or stand alone pro amp. I wonder if the sealed design will ever be tested, that would be more helpful in comparing these subs to the Outlaws, which have shown they can deliver true 16 hz performance.

Sure. There's no doubt that the CHT SS 18.1s require EQing. CHT even verified when I ordered that I had some additional EQ capability to go along with the bass boost and the PEQ on the Dayton amp. No one denies that this is a decision factor in buying them. What's more important, is how they sound. And they do sound very good biggrin.gif

Since it's clear you seem more interested in promoting your Outlaw subs--I'm assuming you don't have an interest in upgrading to the CHTs--and since you don't have any experience with the CHTs, I think it would be a more appropriate venue for me to post my more in-depth impressions of the SS 18.1s vs the EX in the Outlaw thread, and we can discuss it there. That seems a much better place to have that conversation. There are other followers of that thread who have made a similar upgrade from the EX to the CHTs. So there would be more input from people experienced with both subs over there to address your concerns.

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post #192 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 10:14 AM
 
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Sure. There's no doubt that the CHT SS 18.1s require EQing. CHT even verified when I ordered that I had some additional EQ capability to go along with the bass boost and the PEQ on the Dayton amp. No one denies that this is a decision factor in buying them. What's more important, is how they sound. And they do sound very good biggrin.gif
Since it's clear you seem more interested in promoting your Outlaw subs--I'm assuming you don't have an interest in upgrading to the CHTs--and since you don't have any experience with the CHTs, I think it would be a more appropriate venue for me to post my more in-depth impressions of the SS 18.1s vs the EX in the Outlaw thread, and we can discuss it there. That seems a much better place to have that conversation. There are other followers of that thread who have made a similar upgrade from the EX to the CHTs. So there would be more input from people experienced with both subs over there to address your concerns.

It really remains to be seen if switching from Outlaws to sealed CHTs can be called an upgrade, in light of the lack of test data, right? Our ears can be fooled into thinking that a midbass hump is "more bass", when in reality the true extension may not be there. You are correct, I have no interest in replacing my twin Outlaws, they are the best example of well designed, high performance bang for the buck subs, IMO. That is the reason I'm posting here, of course, since you decided to do the comparison with the same sub I own. Maybe you could post some graphs of a single CHT versus the Outlaw in your room, since I don't believe there are any plans to have one of those sealed subs tested anytime soon. I'm sure the folks in the Outlaw thread would be interested in seeing some real data as well!
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post #193 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 10:36 AM
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That is the reason I'm posting here, of course, since you decided to do the comparison with the same sub I own.

No. Actually, I did not decide to "do the comparison with the same sub" you own. That was not my motivation. I am actually sharing my observations because I chose to buy the CHT subs and now have experience with both the SS 18.1s and the EX. Even if user testimonials are inherently biased, they can still be very useful to others in comparison to speculations without any experience whatsoever with the product.

BTW: I should thank you. Your need to combine MBM-12s with your twin EXs in your sub setup to achieve good midbass response was one thing that convinced me to go with the CHTs. Better midbass response was one thing I was looking for in an upgrade, and I got it with the dual SS 18.1s. I don't really have room in my living room for an MBM-12 and two subs. Plus, the much higher cost of two EXs and an MBM-12 over the CHTs were an important factor in my decision.

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post #194 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 10:58 AM
 
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No. Actually, I did not decide to "do the comparison with the same sub" you own. That was not my motivation. I am actually sharing my observations because I chose to buy the CHT subs and now have experience with both the SS 18.1s and the EX. Even if user testimonials are inherently biased, they can still be very useful to others in comparison to speculations without any experience whatsoever with the product.
BTW: I should thank you. Your need to combine MBM-12s with your twin EXs in your sub setup to achieve good midbass response was one thing that convinced me to go with the CHTs. Better midbass response was one thing I was looking for in an upgrade, and I got it with the dual SS 18.1s. I don't really have room in my living room for an MBM-12 and two subs. Plus, the much higher cost of two EXs and an MBM-12 over the CHTs were an important factor in my decision.

Where did you hear that I own MBM-12s? No, never have, sorry! I was using a pair of P-1000 subs flanking my listening position, but those have been moved to my family room, not needed. I do use bass shakers under my seats, I find that they add a degree of tactile response that, when properly adjusted, can enhance the viewing experience. My Outlaw subs are positioned under my L/R main speakers, dialed in by my SMS-1. Truth be told the SMS-1 isn't really needed, but the multiple setpoints are cool when switching sources, allows me to run a house curve as well as a music curve. At $1100 delivered for the pair I can't see how you could do better, especially considering that true 16 hz extension. I wasn't going to sacrifice the low end for midbass, luckily I can have both. If you have the ability to do so then post a graph of your new subs response curve, I'm curious if you can straighten out the typical hill shaped curve that uneq-ed sealed subs are known for.
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post #195 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 12:39 PM
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Where did you hear that I own MBM-12s? No, never have, sorry! I was using a pair of P-1000 subs flanking my listening position, but those have been moved to my family room, not needed.

Sorry. My mistake for mixing it up. I remember now. It was the P1000s. I read your post when doing research where you described using extra subs as midbass modules with the EX. I guess I incorrectly assumed that you thought you needed them since you were using them.

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post #196 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 12:56 PM
 
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Sorry. My mistake for mixing it up. I remember now. It was the P1000s. I read your post when doing research where you described using extra subs as midbass modules with the EX. I guess I incorrectly assumed that you thought you needed them since you were using them.

No worries! The fact is the twin P-1000s were my original HT subs, back in the day. I had a basement theater then, in N.H., and the sealed design benefited from lots of room gain. They are really cool little subs, each one has twin 10 inch drivers, a 1000 watt BASH amp, and a semi-parametric eq to help balance the sound, a well thought out design. In my sealed basement they worked quite well, but when I moved to Florida my theater situation changed. With no basements here I converted my living room over, 13 feet by 21 feet, open to the rest of the house. The sealed subs no longer had the help of a sealed room, and I had trouble getting the extension I wanted. That's when I picked up my first LFM-1EX, and the three subs worked well together. I used the Outlaw for the deep stuff, and the sealed subs became MBMs, flanking my listening position.

Long story short, after adding my second Outlaw I realized that I really didn't need the P-1000s anymore, they were moved to my family room. They are working admirably there, on either side of the entertainment center that holds the 50 inch TV. In my theater, with the ten foot 2:35 screen and projector the Outlaws handle everything, no help needed. Of course, I still like my bass shakers, properly set up they can add that extra tactile feel that makes a big screen movie even better.
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post #197 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 01:37 PM
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The sub you refer to is the ported one, correct? I would guess that it would post some decent numbers, we will see.
Dunno, is that the one they're testing? Yes, I guess we will see.
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The subs in question here are the sealed version, which would have some very different numbers if they are ever tested.
I'm sure they would.
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Sealed subs have an inherent disadvantage with extension, in that the design typically requires eq and room gain to acieve it.
I agree. And, as you point out, several (many? most?) manufacturers use EQ - and count on some amount of room gain - to achieve extension. Thank you for confirming this fact. CHT is, therefore, in excellent company.
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I wonder if the sealed design will ever be tested ...
Dunno, but I would certainly be interested in seeing the SS-18.1s tested. Not that test numbers would in any way alter the reality of how these subs perform in my HT space - and, even more so, in my buddy's HT space - which is, in a word, great! cool.gif
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post #198 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 01:55 PM
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I have/had both the Outlaw subs, an eD sub and now have (4) CHT SS 18.1 subs. I love the Outlaw subs but a 12" ported sub is all that they offer. I really wanted to see what a sealed sub could offer to my dedicated, sealed space. I had no choice but to look elsewhere. I easily took a single LFM-1 PLUS sub into stress the first week I had it due to the size of my room and my bass desires. I ended up with a second PLUS sub and then added (2) LFM-1 EX subs to the picture and still found the limits of these subs with bass heavy movies.

The system I have now consisting of (4) CHT subs + (2) EP-4000 amps + DXC2496 EQ is clearly better in all related areas than my (4) Outlaw sub system. I have also added (2) Clark Synthesis TST209 Transducers to the mix with outstanding results. At this time, I have no desire to reproduce reference level bass in the 3Hz to 9Hz region but I know what to purchase/build if my feelings change...

Finally, my experiences with Outlaw Audio, eD and CHT has been a very positive experience with regards to customer service before, during and after the sale.
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post #199 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 06:24 PM
 
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I have/had both the Outlaw subs, an eD sub and now have (4) CHT SS 18.1 subs. I love the Outlaw subs but a 12" ported sub is all that they offer. I really wanted to see what a sealed sub could offer to my dedicated, sealed space. I had no choice but to look elsewhere. I easily took a single LFM-1 PLUS sub into stress the first week I had it due to the size of my room and my bass desires. I ended up with a second PLUS sub and then added (2) LFM-1 EX subs to the picture and still found the limits of these subs with bass heavy movies.
The system I have now consisting of (4) CHT subs + (2) EP-4000 amps + DXC2496 EQ is clearly better in all related areas than my (4) Outlaw sub system. I have also added (2) Clark Synthesis TST209 Transducers to the mix with outstanding results. At this time, I have no desire to reproduce reference level bass in the 3Hz to 9Hz region but I know what to purchase/build if my feelings change...
Finally, my experiences with Outlaw Audio, eD and CHT has been a very positive experience with regards to customer service before, during and after the sale.

Glad you've found the bass you crave. I doubt that most could handle four 18 inch subs and a pair of pro amps, not to mention the pro digital crossover/eq system you are using. Obviously your needs go way beyond the average user, good luck to you! Unless you live in a cathedral I can't believe that 4 Outlaw subs couldn't handle the bass, but to each their own. I've always thought those sealed subs were more of a DIY approach, with the customer left to figure out the best amps, eq, etc. to achieve good results. This approach is certainly valid, but the customer needs to plot and graph each iteration of response as he tries to zero in on an acceptable result. I can't see most people wanting to do that, just as I can't see most people being unhappy with the output of four Outlaw subs, my two do just fine for me. To each their own, good luck with your system.
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post #200 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 06:58 PM
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Glad you've found the bass you crave. I doubt that most could handle four 18 inch subs and a pair of pro amps, not to mention the pro digital crossover/eq system you are using. Obviously your needs go way beyond the average user, good luck to you! Unless you live in a cathedral I can't believe that 4 Outlaw subs couldn't handle the bass, but to each their own. I've always thought those sealed subs were more of a DIY approach, with the customer left to figure out the best amps, eq, etc. to achieve good results. This approach is certainly valid, but the customer needs to plot and graph each iteration of response as he tries to zero in on an acceptable result. I can't see most people wanting to do that, just as I can't see most people being unhappy with the output of four Outlaw subs, my two do just fine for me. To each their own, good luck with your system.

To get the most out of any sub, sealed or ported, requires measurement gear and multiple tries at placement and possibly EQ. The Outlaw subs are no exception. If you don't know your own room's transfer function, you don't know what sub will match the best. You can make an educated guess based on dimensions, shape and construction, but measurements are the best way. I have a fairly large open space, and still get decent room gain below 40hz, so if I used the Outlaws in my room without EQ, the low bass would be probably be over powering. Regarding the CHT subs, I just wish they had official frequency responses posted on the product pages or stickied in the forum. Buried in the forums there are Paul's measurements of the VS18.1 and a couple different outdoor and close mic measurements of the sealed 18.1 by Craig, but with different mics, unknown calibrations and differently scaled graphs.

-Mike
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post #201 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I think you missed my point.... mainstream manufacturers design their sealed subs as a system, with the amplifier and eq as an integral part of the design. Simply making a sealed sub and offering a choice of amps shows that the amps are an afterthought, and not part of the overall design concept.

We understand. The CHT sub model does not suit you. The lack of a built in amp is obviously an intentional part of the CHT sub model. Passive subs were much more popular a few years back in home audio. I had an NHT passive sub about twelve years ago. Great sub for the money. Meanwhile, this industry has largely moved toward plug and play for home audio subwoofers. Well, the car audio subwoofer industry still works the way that CHT does, and I expect there are many subwoofer enthusiasts that prefer the option of selecting their own amp and doing their own configuration. The fact that you prefer a simpler approach does not negate that CHT subs fit well with a certain part of the market and can serve those subwoofer enthusiasts well.
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Unless you live in a cathedral I can't believe that 4 Outlaw subs couldn't handle the bass, but to each their own. I can't see most people wanting to do that, just as I can't see most people being unhappy with the output of four Outlaw subs, my two do just fine for me.

As an EX and SS 18.1 owner, I do not doubt that 4 SS 18.1s could outperform the Outlaw subs as laugsbach describes.

So you continually indicate that you don't understand how the SS 18.1s perform. Obviously, the next step is to go listen to some CHT subs to be able to meaningfully add to the conversation. Right now, you are sounding like one of those Amazon product reviews where the reviewer claims on the Product B page that Product A is better than Product B, only the reviewer has no experience with Product B. Those kinds of reviews get lots of "not helpful" votes. LOL

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post #202 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 07:57 PM
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... mainstream manufacturers design their sealed subs as a system, with the amplifier and eq as an integral part of the design.
And yet every sub needs to undergo some tweaking when being integrated into a particular room and HT set-up. With CHT's subs - which provide the flexibility of using their amp(s) or your own - a little more tweaking is required but it's really quite simple to do and it works very well. I do feel that CHT should provide more / better set-up information to potential customers and to new owners, but you appear to be confusing or conflating a lack of information with an inherent lack of performance.
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Regarding the CHT subs, I just wish they had official frequency responses posted on the product pages or stickied in the forum. Buried in the forums there are Paul's measurements of the VS18.1 and a couple different outdoor and close mic measurements of the sealed 18.1 by Craig, but with different mics, unknown calibrations and differently scaled graphs.
I agree. IMO, CHT would be much better off:
- standardizing their own testing methodology, publishing it (so that potential buyers know how things are being tested) and adhering to it;
- providing FR ratings using the "generally accepted" +/-3dB variance (rather than the +/-4dB and +/-5dB (?!) variances they're currently using); and
- providing clear and concise information (to potential buyers and to new customers) on placement, integration, amp settings, calibration, etc.
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post #203 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 09:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

And yet every sub needs to undergo some tweaking when being integrated into a particular room and HT set-up. With CHT's subs - which provide the flexibility of using their amp(s) or your own - a little more tweaking is required but it's really quite simple to do and it works very well. I do feel that CHT should provide more / better set-up information to potential customers and to new owners, but you appear to be confusing or conflating a lack of information with an inherent lack of performance.
I agree. IMO, CHT would be much better off:
- standardizing their own testing methodology, publishing it (so that potential buyers know how things are being tested) and adhering to it;
- providing FR ratings using the "generally accepted" +/-3dB variance (rather than the +/-4dB and +/-5dB (?!) variances they're currently using); and
- providing clear and concise information (to potential buyers and to new customers) on placement, integration, amp settings, calibration, etc.

I agree that to fully optimize any sub some "tweaking" is required, but some subs apparently require much more, and it is often not as simple as you would imply. I believe these subs require more work than most others, almost a DIY type of owner involvement if you will. What you call "flexibility" I call insufficient design integration, as most will not be aware that additional eq equipment and pro amps will be needed to make these products perform as they should. Outlaw, SVS, Hsu, etc make mainstream products that will perform to spec out of the box, as verified by numerous reviews and testing. Rather than re-invent the wheel why don't all manufacturers just submit their products for reviews like the mainstream companies do? I don't mean buying a private review, or doing countless GTGs, etc..... just submit the products like everyone else does. If there are any issues the reviews will show it, as well as providing real comparative numbers for the consumers. It really is about time, the industry is trying to standardize, manufacturers need to get with the program.
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post #204 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Rather than re-invent the wheel why don't all manufacturers just submit their products for reviews like the mainstream companies do? I don't mean buying a private review, or doing countless GTGs, etc..... just submit the products like everyone else does. If there are any issues the reviews will show it, as well as providing real comparative numbers for the consumers. It really is about time, the industry is trying to standardize, manufacturers need to get with the program.

MKtheater already told you that a CHT sub is being reviewed by Audioholics. Your concern is already being addressed.

I will also point out that ONLY the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX has been reviewed with comparative numbers. When considering the Outlaw subs before buying the EX, I could not find any measurement reviews for the LFM-1 Plus, the LFM-1 Compact (recently retired), and the M8, and I know that there have not been any since. In fact, Outlaw misleads people by listing reviews for the older generation LFM-1 on the LFM-1 Plus reviews page. So why doesn't Outlaw submit their other subs for review?

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post #205 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 10:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

MKtheater already told you that a CHT sub is being reviewed by Audioholics. Your concern is already being addressed.
I will also point out that ONLY the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX has been reviewed with comparative numbers. When considering the Outlaw subs before buying the EX, I could not find any measurement reviews for the LFM-1 Plus, the LFM-1 Compact (recently retired), and the M8, and I know that there have not been any since. In fact, Outlaw misleads people by listing reviews for the older generation LFM-1 on the LFM-1 Plus reviews page. So why doesn't Outlaw submit their other subs for review?

I personally never considered purchasing any of the other Outlaw subs, so your point is moot for me. I require the ability to research any product I'm thinking of buying, and reading pro reviews on the product is a prerequisite for my purchase decision. I did so for my twin LFM-1EX subs, and I was not disappointed. The sub MK refers to is the ported sub, not the ones you own, correct? I will be interested in seeing the review, but obviously it doesn't mean anything in regards to your sealed subs, they really should be submitted next. I have the confidence in knowing that my subs can deliver true 16 hz extension, as shown by several reviews. Without that confidence, backed up by pro reviews, what do you really have, besides internet talk?
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post #206 of 866 Old 07-14-2012, 10:43 PM
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Ricci only recently tested this outlaw sub, FPB owned them before he tested them. One of the best subs tested is a passive DIY design that needs much more tweaking than any CHT sub. This sub is the DTS-10 and Ricci loved it! There are many different types of subs, it is good to have a variety. Talk about bang for buck. How many outlaws would it take to equal that? Don't answer, I already know and all those outlaws would cost over 3x as much and still not extend as low. Ported subs will always have more output at and around tune but that is it! Ported don't go lower! The DTS-10 and huge DIY designs reach 10-12hz but that is as low as they go. Sealed subs can go to single digits. All subs need measuring and EQ(extra) to get right in room, all subs.

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post #207 of 866 Old 07-15-2012, 07:49 AM
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I believe these subs require more work than most others, almost a DIY type of owner involvement ...
You are mistaken. You may choose to "believe" they require more work than others, but from my experience with my subs I know for a fact they don't. And I'm far from being a "DIY type of owner".
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... most will not be aware that additional eq equipment and pro amps will be needed ...
Once again, you are mistaken. The product pages clearly state that the subs are passive, that an amp is required to power them (as is the case with any other passive sub), and that the potential buyer has the option to purchase one from CHT or to use his own. No additional equipment is required. (AVRs come with auto-EQ capabilities, which are used by owners of every brand of sub to calibrate their systems, so this is not something specific to CHT.)
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post #208 of 866 Old 07-15-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I personally never considered purchasing any of the other Outlaw subs, so your point is moot for me. I require the ability to research any product I'm thinking of buying, and reading pro reviews on the product is a prerequisite for my purchase decision. I did so for my twin LFM-1EX subs, and I was not disappointed. The sub MK refers to is the ported sub, not the ones you own, correct? I will be interested in seeing the review, but obviously it doesn't mean anything in regards to your sealed subs, they really should be submitted next. I have the confidence in knowing that my subs can deliver true 16 hz extension, as shown by several reviews. Without that confidence, backed up by pro reviews, what do you really have, besides internet talk?

Double standard.

You have made it clear that you are not interested in purchasing CHT subs. Thus, the lack of pro reviews for CHT should not concern you by your own admission.

You have also repeatedly stated (both here and elsewhere in other contexts) that there is something wrong with a company that does not have pro reviews of their subs. Meanwhile, you have recently stated,
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Outlaw, SVS, Hsu, etc make mainstream products that will perform to spec out of the box, as verified by numerous reviews and testing.

Outlaw's current sub line has NOT been verified to perform as spec'd out of the box by numerous reviews. Only one of their subs has been verified in one major review that, as MKtheater pointed out, happened after you bought your first LFM-1 EX . Meanwhile, CHT has submitted one of their subs to Audioholics for review and even has had some independent paid testing by one of the Audioholics reviewers. Seems CHT is striving for more than parity with Outlaw, even though they are a much younger company with a very small product range and, one would guess, much less sales revenue.
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I have the confidence in knowing that my subs can deliver true 16 hz extension, as shown by several reviews. Without that confidence, backed up by pro reviews, what do you really have, besides internet talk?

Obviously, no one in the CHT owners thread needed that confidence in order to make their purchasing decision. To repeatedly insist on this is to attack the individual owners in an owners thread, which I suspect most people would find highly inappropriate. Especially given that 16hz extension is not the only metric for sub performance. That may be what you are looking for, and you may need the confidence of pro reviews to feel good about your purchase. That's fine, but it's wrong to suggest that others should feel bad about their subs because they have different assessment standards than you.
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post #209 of 866 Old 07-15-2012, 11:04 AM
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One small clarification...Craig contacted me directly and sent a VS18.1, the same one tested by Paul, along with their new Sub-1 amplifier. The VS18.1 test is not associated with AH and will not result in a review there. The information will be uploaded directly to Data-Bass when available. It will be a few weeks still. Carry on...
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post #210 of 866 Old 07-15-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I have/had both the Outlaw subs, an eD sub and now have (4) CHT SS 18.1 subs. I love the Outlaw subs but a 12" ported sub is all that they offer. I really wanted to see what a sealed sub could offer to my dedicated, sealed space. I had no choice but to look elsewhere. I easily took a single LFM-1 PLUS sub into stress the first week I had it due to the size of my room and my bass desires. I ended up with a second PLUS sub and then added (2) LFM-1 EX subs to the picture and still found the limits of these subs with bass heavy movies.
The system I have now consisting of (4) CHT subs + (2) EP-4000 amps + DXC2496 EQ is clearly better in all related areas than my (4) Outlaw sub system. I have also added (2) Clark Synthesis TST209 Transducers to the mix with outstanding results. At this time, I have no desire to reproduce reference level bass in the 3Hz to 9Hz region but I know what to purchase/build if my feelings change...
Finally, my experiences with Outlaw Audio, eD and CHT has been a very positive experience with regards to customer service before, during and after the sale.

I can attest to laugsbach's latest system...it is killer! His new tranducers (clark) compared to his old ones (aura) completely change the overall impact to his system. Add to what he's done with the DCX to help dial in his subs, he's got a system that doesn't clip and shakes you to a pulp! He should charge admission because you certainly take a ride in his main seating!

 

Now, from a CHT vs Outlaw standpoint, I've heard his setup when he had both in many configurations. In my mind, I rank them like this:

 

4 CHT's > 4 Outlaws

- Loved the outlaws, but in his 3000 cuft room they ran out of steam on the very demanding movies. The CHT's could play louder and had more detail (I prefer sealed sound).

 

2 CHTs + 2 EXs > 4 Outlaws

2 CHTs + 2 EXs > 4 CHTs

- I'm probably biased because I run a sealed and ported setup now (I bought his EXs smile.gif), but this was my favorite configuration of his before his current setup. He had the nice midbass slam of the CHTs, and the room shaking frequencies around the ported tune. When I had an all sealed setup (eD A7S-450s), I would always remember listening to his setup on certain movies and thinking....I don't have that same shake/pressurization on some of those scenes. An example was the grid entry on Tron Legacy. I never understood why, because I was flat to 10hz in my room. After I bought his EXs, and ran the ported/sealed setup, voila! I had the shake I wanted! So, I'm not exactly sure about the science causing the shake, but the outlaws delivered it in spades!

 

4 CHTs + Clark Synthesis Transducers > all of his configurations!

- Bar none, the best he's had it! He's managed to really dial the CHTs in with the DCX along with his tranducers to deliver a very clean and truly frightening experience! eek.gif No clipping or bad sounds, just brute raw force! It is quite the experience for sure! His tranducers are incredibly realistic. I swear he had quad DTS-10s right behind the couch when he played WOTW! Honestly, I looked behind me to see if there were subs...

 

Congrats on your new setup!

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