The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 124 - AVS Forum
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post #3691 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints View Post

I've seen it mentioned here before,but I just got finished watching War of the Arrows on Netflix and it has some really good LFE. Definitely worth checking out.

The BD was pretty good. Simple story good execution. Plus the mix was pretty good

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #3692 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 03:51 PM
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If I get time tomorrow, I'll run peak/avg for U:A.

Have you seen it yet, bosso?

Any insight from FilmMixer on this title?


JSS

PS - I like the sonic cannon scene on Hulk (I start from the moment the HMMWV hits the gate to the gunship showing up when I demo) is because the guns have great slam, the .50 cals have deeper reach, the transformation has some ULF, the breakout from the glass covered bridge/overpass is a 30Hz T:L like festival, All of the weapons fired have distinct but powerful signatures, surround use is amazing. Then the Sonic Cannons kick in. Great 60-80Hz chest kick when they are turned on, a continuous 40Hz drone with very high harmonics, and during the slo-mo sweep, the room feels like it will burst. I used to be only able to reach to 30Hz, and there is a significant difference between 15Hz extension and 30Hz extension. It is simply the scene I reach for when people ask "How does it sound"? No clipping/brickwall limiting I can tell other than the overpass breakout that may have a bit. The rest is clean goodness, and uses the entire LFE band, and it is what I believe is the best scene in my limited room, with a dirt cheap sound system. Remember, I spent $80 in drivers for LCR, which can only play clean to -7dBRef, hence my 'reference' level of -10dBRef. I spent $300 for drivers for my subs, and $400 in amps. My surrounds were $90 in drivers. I have a very compromised system, that sounds great at the LP due to array use. Other places in the room sound like crap, but that is a choice I made, with the budget I had at the time...and I play well within its limits. I can play at reference, if I wouldn't mind 10+% THD. But I do.

The fight between Hulk and Abom is not as good for me, because I cannot reproduce those 7-12Hz hits, so although I know the content is there, it is not as powerful as the hits that are primarily above 20Hz... Maybe soon I'll reach lower.....we'll see. I have ideas for new LCRS....and subs....
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post #3693 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Those who cling to this notion that the first 3 octaves of the effect (more than half of the 3-120 Hz bandwidth, BTW, in case you're counting) are no big deal, with all sorts of quotes, links and opinions (mostly opinions), are the fanatics from where I sit.

I've no doubt that if effects were designed to 3Hz and a person had the capability to reproduce that, it would be awesome! The theory is good, but you don't seem to temper that with practicality and commercial viability issues and those are the real life considerations which dictate industry practice.

On this you seem to be living in an ivory tower, espousing your theory but ignoring the fact that your theory is unattainable by the vast majority. Yet you keep pushing it... to what end may I ask? So that you get movies that only you and perhaps a handful out there can playback properly? You want the industry to change its standards and practices to cater to the needs of a 0.1% group? Just trying to understand what you are aiming for.

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Really, just suggest taking out the top 3 octaves and roll off with no ability to monitor above 2500 Hz and there would be an instant gigantic and universal ROFL.

The difference is that reproducing up to 20kHz is far easier than reproducing down to 3Hz. It is commercially viable and practical to implement. Also doesn't bleed and travel like ULF.

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To the accusations that I'm somehow obsessed with accurate .1 channel audio reproduction; I built a simple sealed dual opposed driver sub 9 years ago, minded the signal chain roll off and attached a signal shaper and amplifier and that was it. 3-120 Hz at the LP. It cost far less than the so-called Uber Subs folks talk about here. It cost less than the measurement hardware that confirmed its response. Since then I've refined the process and scaled it larger with better amplification, but that only gave headroom. It didn't change the FR at the LP.

Good for you. You make it sound so easy to get 3-120Hz at the LP. You want to make a real contribution to the masses? Find a way to mass produce a bass system that can play down to 3Hz at a realistic volume and at a realistic price and realistic size. Put that kind of a system in many, many households and then I think the industry would sit up and take notice.

That's just the way it works bosso. At this moment you're just an outlier, a fringe element. Industry doesn't cater to you, it caters to the masses. As unfortunate as that may be, it's the present state of things.

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Right. Just leave the effect intact and don't red line... good job, thank you.

On this I fully agree. Don't filter the soundtrack.
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post #3694 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

At what SPL level can you (meaning you) hear 15 Hz?

Say is the audible threshold for 15Hz at 90dB?
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post #3695 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 05:45 PM
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OK folks....back to data. I'm about 30 mins into peak/avg for U:A. Not much below 10Hz, but we have a winner. 10-20Hz is amazing. And best of all, over 30dB between peak and avg, making for great dynamics....I'l post the graph later.

JSS
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post #3696 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

OK folks....back to data. I'm about 30 mins into peak/avg for U:A. Not much below 10Hz, but we have a winner. 10-20Hz is amazing. And best of all, over 30dB between peak and avg, making for great dynamics....I'l post the graph later.

JSS

Great to know. This peak/avg is run on just the LFE channel? Sorry, not familiar with how peak/avg graphs are taken.
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post #3697 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 05:54 PM
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I route all <250Hz info from all channels to SW out. You'll see. I also made a mistake. There appeared to be a huge hole at 70Hz. I left my room correction EQ on, so I have to start over. Doing it now.

JSS
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post #3698 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jchong View Post

I've no doubt that if effects were designed to 3Hz and a person had the capability to reproduce that, it would be awesome! The theory is good, but you don't seem to temper that with practicality and commercial viability issues and those are the real life considerations which dictate industry practice.

On this you seem to be living in an ivory tower, espousing your theory but ignoring the fact that your theory is unattainable by the vast majority. Yet you keep pushing it... to what end may I ask? So that you get movies that only you and perhaps a handful out there can playback properly? You want the industry to change its standards and practices to cater to the needs of a 0.1% group? Just trying to understand what you are aiming for.

It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It could in theory be a win/win. If the ULF was mixed in on purpose, it would not detract from the mix anywhere it doesn't play, and would enhance the mix where it does. Advertising that it is there could even get more people interested. I think it could work, and even be commercially viable.

Quote:


You make it sound so easy to get 3-120Hz at the LP. You want to make a real contribution to the masses? Find a way to mass produce a bass system that can play down to 3Hz at a realistic volume and at a realistic price and realistic size. Put that kind of a system in many, many households and then I think the industry would sit up and take notice.

That might actually be exactly what bossobass is trying to do, ahve you seen this? http://web.mac.com/bossobass.com/

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post #3699 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 06:27 PM
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Just watched Underworld.....

WOW! Constant bass, definitely not shy on quantity at all. Very good action and overall soundtrack, only had it at -15db (but smaller room so gain is high).

The 3D was also on par with other top releases even though the mood is dark. No brightness issues, ghosting, xtalk.

Glad I bought it.... Kate wasn't bad either ;-P

Bit by the upgrade bug, limited by the WAF
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post #3700 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post

It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It could in theory be a win/win. If the ULF was mixed in on purpose, it would not detract from the mix anywhere it doesn't play, and would enhance the mix where it does. Advertising that it is there could even get more people interested. I think it could work, and even be commercially viable.

In theory yes. In practice I don't know. As mentioned earlier, to mix in the ULF deliberately there would need to be upgrade of equipment at the stage and more importantly extra time cost for the mixer's efforts. Plus a clear instruction from the client (I suppose producer/director) bearing all that in mind. That said, with the amount of money a blockbuster can make... I'm sure the producer can spare some change for ULF sound design

Of course there have been instances where this has been done. Some of the work by Randy Thom is often mentioned.

At the end of the day it is a commercial decision - that was simply what I was trying to convey. Of course I applaud those movies that make the decision to have deliberate ULF.

Quote:


That might actually be exactly what bossobass is trying to do, ahve you seen this? http://web.mac.com/bossobass.com/

I have seen his website in the past. I was drawn there by his claims of superb low end performance. Even thought of buying from him if he does sell ready made subs. Anyway, it appears to be more a showcase rather than a sales portal. More importantly, the system doesn't appear to be cheap and probably not affordable to the masses (nor was it intended to be I venture).
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post #3701 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 07:25 PM
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So here is peak/avg for U:A.



A few things explained: my signal chain rolls off at -3dB at 5Hz, and cliff below, so below 7Hz cannot really be trusted.

That being said, a few effects dig to 7Hz (and possibly lower), but most everything is 20Hz on up save for some ~15Hz stuff. Avg graph shows that most high power effects are centered at 30Hz, right in the wheelhouse for commercial cinema subs.

Not quite top tier, save your 5.5 ratings for something else.

Good bass flick, though. I compare it to Terminator:Salvation or Tron:Legacy. It is not X-Men:1st Class or Battle:LA good, IMO.

JSS
LL
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post #3702 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 07:40 PM
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Thanks for the graph. This is the reading of a particular scene or the whole movie?
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post #3703 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 08:19 PM
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Entire film.

JSS
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post #3704 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 08:21 PM
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Battle la was "better" than tron?!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #3705 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Battle la was "better" than tron?!

Not in my home theater. Last time I saw Battle LA it was right after How to Train Your Dragon. Didn't measure up, honestly. I'm still at 4.5 for Battle LA.

Tron Legacy, on the other hand, does match HTTYD for me.
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post #3706 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 09:18 PM
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Battle:LA does not clip AFAIK. It is a known fact T:L does.

JSS

PS - I am not impartial. I am a Marine.
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post #3707 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 10:38 PM
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Still in?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #3708 of 17641 Old 05-11-2012, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post


Not in my home theater. Last time I saw Battle LA it was right after How to Train Your Dragon. Didn't measure up, honestly. I'm still at 4.5 for Battle LA.

Tron Legacy, on the other hand, does match HTTYD for me.

There is no way that Battle LA tops TL. Underworld even tops Battle LA on my system.
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post #3709 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

So here is peak/avg for U:A.



A few things explained: my signal chain rolls off at -3dB at 5Hz, and cliff below, so below 7Hz cannot really be trusted.

That being said, a few effects dig to 7Hz (and possibly lower), but most everything is 20Hz on up save for some ~15Hz stuff. Avg graph shows that most high power effects are centered at 30Hz, right in the wheelhouse for commercial cinema subs.

Not quite top tier, save your 5.5 ratings for something else.

Good bass flick, though. I compare it to Terminator:Salvation or Tron:Legacy. It is not X-Men:1st Class or Battle:LA good, IMO.

JSS

On my system (which does reference easy down to 6-7hz) U:A sounded much more powerful than Battle:LA. Perhaps this is due to the higher dynamics of U:A. Perhaps it is due to something else. To my ears U:A is significally better LFE-wise than Battle:LA. Not that B:LA is bad, its definitly not. Its awesome but it is still a bit behind imo.
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post #3710 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

I took these graphs from Speclab with the Player output downmixed to stereo, looped the L/R output of the Creative X-Fi card to the Line-In output. That should capture exactly what is on the mix - no room or sub limitations

I assume there should be a way to hook just the audiostream from software, but this was quick and easy.

Set SpecLab to auto capture every two minutes and perused through the captures to find the best ones.

Index time on the graphs should be within plus/minus 7 seconds of movie play time.

I could have boosted the Line Level (it was set to 25% only), but at least the levels didn't clip and the captures should give a pretty good idea of the content distribution. Looks pretty heavy in the 20-45 range as someone guessed earlier, but there is also some content in the 10's and even lower...

Feedback on captures appreciated.

Thank you very much for doing these waterfalls. But, would it be possible to use the "standard" color scale instead? Makes it much easier to see what is happening. Please see the other plots in this thread and adjust your colors.
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post #3711 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

I've no doubt that if effects were designed to 3Hz and a person had the capability to reproduce that, it would be awesome! The theory is good, but you don't seem to temper that with practicality and commercial viability issues and those are the real life considerations which dictate industry practice.

On this you seem to be living in an ivory tower, espousing your theory but ignoring the fact that your theory is unattainable by the vast majority. Yet you keep pushing it... to what end may I ask? So that you get movies that only you and perhaps a handful out there can playback properly? You want the industry to change its standards and practices to cater to the needs of a 0.1% group? Just trying to understand what you are aiming for.



The difference is that reproducing up to 20kHz is far easier than reproducing down to 3Hz. It is commercially viable and practical to implement. Also doesn't bleed and travel like ULF.



Good for you. You make it sound so easy to get 3-120Hz at the LP. You want to make a real contribution to the masses? Find a way to mass produce a bass system that can play down to 3Hz at a realistic volume and at a realistic price and realistic size. Put that kind of a system in many, many households and then I think the industry would sit up and take notice.

That's just the way it works bosso. At this moment you're just an outlier, a fringe element. Industry doesn't cater to you, it caters to the masses. As unfortunate as that may be, it's the present state of things.



On this I fully agree. Don't filter the soundtrack.

Good post.

I just wanted to say for the record:

Words like "masses" and "vast majority" are what usually get me fired up to post here these days.

Does anyone actually think masses and vast majorities visit this thread?

Secondly, and I tried to touch on this subject several times to no avail, but "ivory tower"? Is that serious?

Please, if the subject interests you, visit the DIY forum and use the search function. Healthnut, Robert Charles, notnyt, MKTheater, IB (dozens if not hundreds of those) and many many more folks have built systems that dwarf mine and who have spent multiples more $$. Then there's the ultra high end forums, the Thigpen Rotary Woofer clientele, the Keith Yates clientele and then there's thousands of folks who don't post on line.

That's just how it is, jchong.

This thread is the Master List of Movies With Bass thread with Spectrograms. All of the screen shots are of direct-inject graphs, so they'll all show the content to 3 Hz, or lower, depending on the signal chain roll off of the hardware and connection scheme.

I don't know what the 'vast majority' is or where the 'masses' hang out and post, but I'm pretty darned sure they don't bother with subwoofers, much less visit this thread.

Bosso
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post #3712 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

So here is peak/avg for U:A.

A few things explained: my signal chain rolls off at -3dB at 5Hz, and cliff below, so below 7Hz cannot really be trusted.

JSS

Thanks Doc. Finally some actual data on the movie.

No, I haven't seen it yet. The whole Vampire/Werewolf thing isn't my cup o' tea, so I've been waiting for someone to post screen shots before taking the plunge.

Meanwhile, I've written a SL setup guide and I've been looking at connection schemes and signal chain effects for this and general measurement apps.

Curious to know... what connection method do you use for your SL graphs?

Thanks,

Bosso
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post #3713 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

[...] I love ULF, and films that do it right....

But isn't that exactly the problem? How can anyone in mixing "do it right" when their monitoring doesn't make ULF audible/perceivable?

Markus

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post #3714 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Be careful there child. At what SPL level can you (meaning you) hear 15 Hz?

Are you hearing the infra frequency, harmonics of same, suspension noise or room vibration noise?

Does 15 Hz content exist on commercial DVD's that has been recorded to playback at levels that you can hear? If so, give an example of same.



Write your own defintion of infra and publish it!

http://www.yourdictionary.com/infrasonic

That is unbelievably condescending. I wonder what your mother would think.
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post #3715 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 08:26 AM
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That is unbelievably condescending. I wonder what your mother would think.

Nube, I find the 'ignore' function to be invaluable on this forum. Unless someone quotes JPC, I am blissfully ignorant of his presence.

JSS
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post #3716 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post


On my system (which does reference easy down to 6-7hz) U:A sounded much more powerful than Battle:LA. Perhaps this is due to the higher dynamics of U:A. Perhaps it is due to something else. To my ears U:A is significally better LFE-wise than Battle:LA. Not that B:LA is bad, its definitly not. Its awesome but it is still a bit behind imo.

I am not sure how loud everyone runs their graphs but underworld has 0 FSdB at 30 hz and -10 FsdB from 10-20 which is very loud! I have not seen 0 FsdB in a while. Never below 20hz but I could be wrong. Do you guys have some 5 star movies to compare? Either way underworld is kick ass and I have not seen it yet!

Bosso, I enjoy many movies, even the many crappy 5 star bass movies as I am easy to please. I agree with you about Avengers, it was great and knowing it was not filtered is a good start!
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post #3717 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 09:11 AM
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any waterfalls for underworld?

and who can help me setup speclab on my laptop?

super dirty , super clean , pow
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post #3718 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Words like "masses" and "vast majority" are what usually get me fired up to post here these days.

Does anyone actually think masses and vast majorities visit this thread?

I hope you're not suggesting that only people with elite sub systems visit this thread? Seriously bosso that's a rather strange point you're making.

I do believe a lot of people visit this thread and that a majority of those who visit (they might not post, just lurk) do not have near anywhere what you have in terms of subs.

Again, just look at a lot of the sub recommendation threads started on this forum. What kind of price ranges are people looking at? Several hundreds is the most common, then you see those perhaps up to 1k or a bit more. These are the masses. Are you saying they don't visit this thread?

Just to be clear when I mention "masses" and "vast majority" I'm talking about those people who are interested in home theater or have a home theater system (from HTIB upwards).

Quote:


Secondly, and I tried to touch on this subject several times to no avail, but "ivory tower"? Is that serious?

I hope you understood the context in which I mentioned you were in an ivory tower. I wasn't talking about your subject being esoteric, rather that you are so caught up in it that you don't seem to see the commercial and practical realities.

Quote:


Please, if the subject interests you, visit the DIY forum and use the search function. Healthnut, Robert Charles, notnyt, MKTheater, IB (dozens if not hundreds of those) and many many more folks have built systems that dwarf mine and who have spent multiples more $$. Then there's the ultra high end forums, the Thigpen Rotary Woofer clientele, the Keith Yates clientele and then there's thousands of folks who don't post on line.

I have indeed seen some of those threads and admired the bass systems these people have. They are awesome (as is yours). But my question remains: do you think these people and yourself are in the majority? Reading the DIY forum a person might get the impression that these kinds of systems are common. But really in the context of HT systems all across USA (not even factoring in the world), the number of you guys is statistically very, very small.

Quote:


This thread is the Master List of Movies With Bass thread with Spectrograms. All of the screen shots are of direct-inject graphs, so they'll all show the content to 3 Hz, or lower, depending on the signal chain roll off of the hardware and connection scheme.

I have seen those graphs and yes I do see there is ULF content. The question is whether those were deliberately included or were artifacts (or whatever else they have been called).

Quote:


I don't know what the 'vast majority' is or where the 'masses' hang out and post, but I'm pretty darned sure they don't bother with subwoofers, much less visit this thread.

Why, they hang out in AVS of course. Haven't you met them?
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post #3719 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Good post.

I just wanted to say for the record:

Words like "masses" and "vast majority" are what usually get me fired up to post here these days.

Does anyone actually think masses and vast majorities visit this thread?

Secondly, and I tried to touch on this subject several times to no avail, but "ivory tower"? Is that serious?

Please, if the subject interests you, visit the DIY forum and use the search function. Healthnut, Robert Charles, notnyt, MKTheater, IB (dozens if not hundreds of those) and many many more folks have built systems that dwarf mine and who have spent multiples more $$. Then there's the ultra high end forums, the Thigpen Rotary Woofer clientele, the Keith Yates clientele and then there's thousands of folks who don't post on line.

That's just how it is, jchong.

This thread is the Master List of Movies With Bass thread with Spectrograms. All of the screen shots are of direct-inject graphs, so they'll all show the content to 3 Hz, or lower, depending on the signal chain roll off of the hardware and connection scheme.

I don't know what the 'vast majority' is or where the 'masses' hang out and post, but I'm pretty darned sure they don't bother with subwoofers, much less visit this thread.

Bosso

Bosso,

Spot on.

I couldn't agree more. When I see comments like that, in this environment, it is perplexing. We're examining the minutia of the spectral characteristics of LFE/RB in motion picture releases on BluRay/DVD. We're certainly not the anywhere near the masses.

Bosso's subwoofer system is relatively modest when compared to many systems that contributors share here at AVS, and elsewhere all over the web. It's the attention to detail, the due diligence in assuring path the signal takes is free from the deleterious effects of accumulative high pass filtration that's an inherent element of electronics design. His system is visually un-obtrusive, and physically takes very little floorspace.

He doesn't need me or anyone to defend him, his contributions here at AVS have advanced the state of the art like few others. This has been explored, that's why he recoils at attempts to diminish the importance of full bandwidth LFE reproduction. Whatever film it is, experiencing it with a system that's less capable in the bottom octaves reduces the intended effect,...no getting around it. Regardless if the sensation is aural, physical, or most likely a blend of the two, if the filmmakers want a floor rippling, wall pulsing, room pressurization flutter effect, then anything less is just that,....less.

I also read comments regarding how financially un-attainable this is, everyone's finances differ, however one of the finest contributors and avid ULF explorer, the late Jordan (aka Krypto), was a contributor of very modest finances. And he managed in solid room response to 5-7 hz with the ubiquitous combo of Fi/EP4K, @ less than approx $1500. He asked questions and got creative. Point being, these positions citing excessive expense for the masses, too much floorspace, etc, really don't apply in my opinion.


There's much more to say... I'll stop here.



Thanks



Looking forward to UA,... re-watched Man On Fire last evening,..... damn what a treat that is. Enjoyable, strong LF/ULF, not over the top usage,...just what I prefer.

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post #3720 of 17641 Old 05-12-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DrPainMD View Post

any waterfalls for underworld?

and who can help me setup speclab on my laptop?

nice to see you again pain

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