The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 151 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #4501 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I think it's time for all you single digit fellows to re-watch Superman Returns.

DANG Scott!! Looks like i'll have to check it out tonight. Thanks! cool.gif
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post #4502 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 02:30 PM
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post #4503 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 04:45 PM
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I had my room professionally calibrated now the bass is flat and does rattle the room anymore frown.gif

Can anyone help!
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post #4504 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

I had my room professionally calibrated now the bass is flat and does rattle the room anymore frown.gif
Can anyone help!

Lol! Seriously?

Kaboom.
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post #4505 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 05:29 PM
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Go into tyour AVR's manual calibration settings, and bump the LFE channel up - try 3 dB first, season to taste. Not everyone likes "flat" response.
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post #4506 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Go into tyour AVR's manual calibration settings, and bump the LFE channel up - try 3 dB first, season to taste. Not everyone likes "flat" response.
Seems to me the response would still be flat.
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post #4507 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


I'll convince you with a single scene. biggrin.gif
There has never been a single soul who didn't notice the difference in the with/without listening tests I've conducted. Age, gender, race, height or weight... irrelevant. Everyone notices the difference. The descriptives are the only thing that varies, which is why I prefer to use SpecLab and leave the translations of subjective comments to others.
You'd have to show me the FR at your seat and SpecLab caps, using a reliable measurement system for ULF of the scenes auditioned in your various listening experiences in order for me to be able to comment further on that. I'll just say that the subs you auditioned don't give much below 20 Hz, sealed, ported or whatever alignment notwithstanding. As I've said many, many times, the sealed alignment does not insure full bandwidth performance, and if it ain't coming out, you can't notice it.
Referring to a scene like the end of the cop car bashing of Abomination by Hulk as dropping a pin is so far off the mark. As far as auditory masking goes, how do you mask an effect that below human hearing with sounds in the audible region? Using the hulk as an example (because I have it handy, there are many more):
Hulkcarbaskzoomedin.jpg
All of this effect is below 20 Hz. There's no higher frequency content of any consequence to mask it, even if it could be masked. When this effect moves the floor, you'll feel it... period, no question, guaranteed. In basements with masonry walls and floor, which can't be rippled by sound pressure waves, it may take more output, but since there is up to 50 times less transmission loss in such a room, you typically have that output vs my room, which is a 2nd floor space. But, that's all just physics trivia. When I get finished messing with the latest new stuff, I'll let you know and set up a demo for you.

^^^^One of my favorite scenes for ULF biggrin.gif

 

Tryyyying to bring it back on topic....

 

A very good comparison is the movie Thor during the ice world visit, and Hulk. Or Thor and BHD or X-Men First Class. Thor has very hard hitting bass and sounds incredible! but is filtered at 20hz. When you compare it to Hulk, BHD, X-Men First Class, you'll know right away the difference with a capable system. If you can't tell a difference between Thor and those famous ULF scenes in the mentioned movies, you aren't producing the really low stuff....

 

Compared to those scenes, the best way I would describe Thor is that it just feels shallow. Again, the Thor scene is one of my favorites, but it just doesn't have the weight and depth the other movies have when produced with a capable sub system. 

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post #4508 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Compared to those scenes, the best way I would describe Thor is that it just feels shallow. Again, the Thor scene is one of my favorites, but it just doesn't have the weight and depth the other movies have when produced with a capable sub system. 

A big +1

Once you get used to the bass these mega ULF scenes provide, the other stuff just doesnt compare.
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post #4509 of 26724 Old 07-17-2012, 07:56 PM
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Watched War Horse this weekend, and then played the war scene again just now...

 

The scene has some spectacular explosions that really pummel you! One of my new favorite demo scenes! I'm buying the movie just for that scene...wow. Definitely made my top 10 list. Plus, it's WOTW Pod emergence type duration! Great immersive scene!

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post #4510 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 12:05 AM
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Project X:
Stong 4 star for me. Excellent bass when music was playing.
Some weird stuff happening with my room, everything bouncing around, almost to the point it making it hard to read the subtitle on the screen.

Would love to see a waterfall...
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post #4511 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 04:49 AM
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Peak/Avg for Project X, LFE + redirected:

378:

It has powerful subharmonics added to the party music at times. Was actually pretty scary, recorded at a very high level, and my room has many resonances in the boosted band.

JSS
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post #4512 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 07:48 AM
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Watched Lockout last night, some pretty good bass.  The final explosion was really nice and I'd be comfortable with a 3.5-4.0 star rating for bass.  I never got the urge to check for the dreaded red lights on the amps, thats when I know we're in 4star plus category!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

I had my room professionally calibrated now the bass is flat and does rattle the room anymore frown.gif

Can anyone help!

I assume you mean EQ applied?  Resonance peaks can be 15db+, flat, accurate bass is not necessarily louder(normally not).  I've worked with systems that had huge midbass peaks due to room resonance and once I tamed them with EQ and/or placement the owner was like "that does'nt sound as good."  In actuality, it sounded much more accurate and less accentuated but the user just missed the uber SPL of that peak and the room resonating.....   

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post #4513 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

I had my room professionally calibrated now the bass is flat and does rattle the room anymore frown.gif
Can anyone help!
Similar thing happened to me. I went from an older Yamaha receiver with no self-calibration to a newer Denon with Audyssey. After Audyssey finished, movies seemed "thin" and not nearly as impactful. However, I boosted the sub by 4 dB (I think), and I got the bottom-end back, but it was still not nearly as "boomy" but once I got used to the way it sounds, I wouldn't want to go back. I can hear a lot more detail and texture in everything including the bottom end. Before, almost all bass moments sounded kind of the same, now every movie seems to have its own unique bass signature.

So my advice is don't touch the professional EQ, but go ahead and raise the sub channel to match your taste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Seems to me the response would still be flat.
Flat response is literally defined as all frequencies playing at exactly the same level when pink noise is being played, so raising the sub channel will make it no longer "flat". However the EQ will still be compensating for the room, so while technically not flat, it will be closer to flat than before the EQ was applied. So raising the sub channel a bit can bring it within the taste of the user without losing the benefit of room calibration.

At the end of the day, it's all about the taste of the user. If you like bass (like I do) then crank it up until it sounds right to YOU. But I do think the best starting point is from a calibrated flat response. smile.gif

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post #4514 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post

Similar thing happened to me. I went from an older Yamaha receiver with no self-calibration to a newer Denon with Audyssey. After Audyssey finished, movies seemed "thin" and not nearly as impactful. However, I boosted the sub by 4 dB (I think), and I got the bottom-end back, but it was still not nearly as "boomy" but once I got used to the way it sounds, I wouldn't want to go back. I can hear a lot more detail and texture in everything including the bottom end. Before, almost all bass moments sounded kind of the same, now every movie seems to have its own unique bass signature.

From Big Daddy:

If Audyssey sets the level of the subwoofer to a very large negative number such as -10dB or -12dB, go back and turn the level on the back of the subwoofer down to around 30%+/-. If Audyssey sets the level of the subwoofer very high such as +10dB or +12dB, go back and turn the level on the back of the subwoofer up or move it to a corner.

After you have made any manual adjustments to the subwoofer, you must run Audyssey again.

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post #4515 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post

Similar thing happened to me. I went from an older Yamaha receiver with no self-calibration to a newer Denon with Audyssey. After Audyssey finished, movies seemed "thin" and not nearly as impactful. However, I boosted the sub by 4 dB (I think), and I got the bottom-end back, but it was still not nearly as "boomy" but once I got used to the way it sounds, I wouldn't want to go back. I can hear a lot more detail and texture in everything including the bottom end. Before, almost all bass moments sounded kind of the same, now every movie seems to have its own unique bass signature.
So my advice is don't touch the professional EQ, but go ahead and raise the sub channel to match your taste.
Flat response is literally defined as all frequencies playing at exactly the same level when pink noise is being played, so raising the sub channel will make it no longer "flat". However the EQ will still be compensating for the room, so while technically not flat, it will be closer to flat than before the EQ was applied. So raising the sub channel a bit can bring it within the taste of the user without losing the benefit of room calibration.
At the end of the day, it's all about the taste of the user. If you like bass (like I do) then crank it up until it sounds right to YOU. But I do think the best starting point is from a calibrated flat response. smile.gif

My faith in this forum has just been given a huge booster shot. biggrin.gif

Great post, KM and spot on.

Since having reproduction of the bottom octaves in a home audio system and source to go along with it is a relatively recent phenomenon, there is a lack of acclimation to that phenomenon in most people's brains. The majority of enthusiasts, unfortunately, bring a psychoacoustic memory of years of grossly distorted low end reproduction to the experience.

I remember installing and calibrating a smallish system in a dedicated, sealed game room that I built for a guy. Very nice room and pretty decent little system, all meticulously set up and sounding good. A few months later, he invited me over to watch a boxing match with a few other guys. Before the fight, we were shooting pool while he was jammin' some hits and I was floored by the sub level. I made my way over to the rack, which had an outboard ICBM for the SACD bass management. and saw the SW level set at max. With the ICBM, the SW level control attenuated to minus infinity or boosted to +9dB, so, in his case, spinning it to max was the equivalent to +12dB hot. Sounded like excrement and everyone was impressed. eek.gif

Great post. Thanks for that. cool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

^^^^One of my favorite scenes for ULF biggrin.gif

Tryyyying to bring it back on topic....

A very good comparison is the movie Thor during the ice world visit, and Hulk. Or Thor and BHD or X-Men First Class. Thor has very hard hitting bass and sounds incredible! but is filtered at 20hz. When you compare it to Hulk, BHD, X-Men First Class, you'll know right away the difference with a capable system. If you can't tell a difference between Thor and those famous ULF scenes in the mentioned movies, you aren't producing the really low stuff....

Compared to those scenes, the best way I would describe Thor is that it just feels shallow. Again, the Thor scene is one of my favorites, but it just doesn't have the weight and depth the other movies have when produced with a capable sub system. 

I just happened to play the Thor chapter you referred to and immediately followed it with the Hulk/Abomination battle, and I found your post to perfectly describe the experience.

IMO, Thor is run hot because they had the headroom due to lack of much below 20 Hz. It hits hard and is a crowd pleaser, but when a creature that obviously weighs many tons is bounding across the ground, wiping out the bottom end makes it way too fake and cartoonish (or 'shallow' as you said) vs stepping down the level a bit and including the full BW.

Great description of the difference, Dom. cool.gif
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post #4516 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post

Similar thing happened to me. I went from an older Yamaha receiver with no self-calibration to a newer Denon with Audyssey. After Audyssey finished, movies seemed "thin" and not nearly as impactful. However, I boosted the sub by 4 dB (I think), and I got the bottom-end back, but it was still not nearly as "boomy" but once I got used to the way it sounds, I wouldn't want to go back. I can hear a lot more detail and texture in everything including the bottom end. Before, almost all bass moments sounded kind of the same, now every movie seems to have its own unique bass signature.
So my advice is don't touch the professional EQ, but go ahead and raise the sub channel to match your taste.
Flat response is literally defined as all frequencies playing at exactly the same level when pink noise is being played, so raising the sub channel will make it no longer "flat". However the EQ will still be compensating for the room, so while technically not flat, it will be closer to flat than before the EQ was applied. So raising the sub channel a bit can bring it within the taste of the user without losing the benefit of room calibration.
At the end of the day, it's all about the taste of the user. If you like bass (like I do) then crank it up until it sounds right to YOU. But I do think the best starting point is from a calibrated flat response. smile.gif

I think you are confusing a change in flat frequency response with a change in loudness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


If someone decides to turn up the subwoofer level, they will end up with Flat, but louder than reference bass. .
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post #4517 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

From Big Daddy:
If Audyssey sets the level of the subwoofer to a very large negative number such as -10dB or -12dB, go back and turn the level on the back of the subwoofer down to around 30%+/-. If Audyssey sets the level of the subwoofer very high such as +10dB or +12dB, go back and turn the level on the back of the subwoofer up or move it to a corner.
After you have made any manual adjustments to the subwoofer, you must run Audyssey again.
This is different. The reason you need to re-run Audyssey in that case is because Audyssey was not able to achieve flat response because the sub's starting point was too far off for it to fully compensate without touching the physical volume knob.

But once you have your system calibrated, and the starting point for the sub is not maxed out one way or the other... that would be the starting point for tweaking to your taste... and if you ran Audyssey after that it would erase all your tweaks.

I also recomend doing your tweaks in the reciever, not by turning knobs on the sub. That way you can easily come back to flat if you make note of what Audyssey did before you change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I think you are confusing a change in flat frequency response with a change in loudness.
I disagree. If you change the sub's volume and not the volume of any other channel, then the low frequencies are louder, and therefore you no longer have "flat frequency response".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

My faith in this forum has just been given a huge booster shot. biggrin.gif
Great post, KM and spot on.
Thanks!! That means a lot to me coming from you, someone I consider an expert in the field.

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post #4518 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 03:15 PM
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Yes, when you say that you need to put flat frequency response in quotes. wink.gif
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post #4519 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I think you are confusing a change in flat frequency response with a change in loudness.

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post #4520 of 26724 Old 07-18-2012, 03:50 PM
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Since I have headroom to spare, I plugged a port on my captivator to tune it to 11-12hz (new model has 17,5hz stock tune). This gave me flat response to 10hz. Through the minidsp I can instantly change the high pass filter, so I played some scenes from Battle LA, How to train your dragon, The Incredible Hulk and Immortals to experience the difference between a 10hz and a 20hz high pass filter, all listening was done at -10.

The difference in these films with known ULF content is very noticeable, it doesn't hit the body like the 30-40hz stuff, or shake the coach like the 20-30hz stuff, but it's like you can feel an extra pulsing/rippling effect way down deep.. the better experience was hands down the one with the 10hz instead of the 20hz HPF.

Tomorrow I'll try this setting vs a house curve with response to 15hz (no port plug), (house curve boost starts at 30hz -+0db to 15hz-+6db) with a 14hz HPF in place.
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post #4521 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 06:16 AM
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Timvg what are you using to measure with? I thought the 2012 caps with the 17.5hz tune didn't have an alternate tune? If you are flat to 10hz you must have some nice room gain gioing on?

Would you mind throwing up a couple graphs? I'd like to see the difference at your listening position between your native tune and alternate tune.

How do you like your minidsp? I don't have any tools to tune below 20hz. On my 20hz tune I have a bump at 20hz that I have to pull down a bit,, but on my 15hz tune I fall off a few db as the fr moves towards 15hz. The caps are definitely flatter to native tune without the luxury of nice room gain on the 15hz/20hz models.

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post #4522 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Timvg what are you using to measure with? I thought the 2012 caps with the 17.5hz tune didn't have an alternate tune? If you are flat to 10hz you must have some nice room gain gioing on?
Would you mind throwing up a couple graphs? I'd like to see the difference at your listening position between your native tune and alternate tune.
How do you like your minidsp? I don't have any tools to tune below 20hz. On my 20hz tune I have a bump at 20hz that I have to pull down a bit,, but on my 15hz tune I fall off a few db as the fr moves towards 15hz. The caps are definitely flatter to native tune without the luxury of nice room gain on the 15hz/20hz models.

Hi Archaea

I actually have no room gain at all at the main listening position (lot's of false walls + U shaped room), and the official statement from JTR is that the 2012 model doesn't have an alternate tune, but it does in fact have one albeit with a very low tuning point (11-12hz). You definitely loose output because of this, and port noise can occur in unmasked loud low stuff (only happened once so far). But I usually don't go past -10 on the receiver when I watch a movie (most of the time it's between -18 and -14) so I don't run out of headroom. For people with a lot of room gain in the lower octaves I'm confident you could run these sealed.

I absolutely love the minidsp, I was a bit unsure at first, but once you get to know it (not all that hard) it's hard to go back, in stock mode it allows EQ and filters to 10hz, but in the advanced mode there's no limit really (there's a handy excell file online that does all calculations for you). Plus it works together with REW for auto EQ which does work really nicely.

I have a calibrated mic from the antimode S (which I don't use anymore) with the USB adapter, so I'm confident it's pretty accurate, I only have some graphs from native tuning with a house curve and a 14hz HPF, and one with the 12hz tuning and a 10hz HPF

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post #4523 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

Hi Archaea
I actually have no room gain at all at the main listening position

Every room has room gain. Yours is no exception. Can you post a close-mic graph vs at the LP?
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post #4524 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Every room has room gain. Yours is no exception. Can you post a close-mic graph vs at the LP?

I'll try and make some tonight, but you're right, I exaggerated by saying NO room gain. The reality is I have no substantial room gain in de low bass region at listening position (10-40hz) apart from a hump at 30 and 50hz. Other spots in the U shaped room do have more bass (I didn't measure, but it's noticeable by simply sitting/standing there). But the listening position is fixed, so simply moving a couple of feet isn't an option.
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post #4525 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 10:17 AM
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Watched Underworld Awakeing last night, wow just wow. I've always been happy with my sub (had it 2 months now?) but never given it a workout like it had last night. Absolutely love feeling but not as much hearing the bass through my body.

Movie not so great but could listen to it again. smile.gif I run my sub about 3 db hot and it seemed about as perfect as I'm going to get it.

Can't wait to check out some others on the master list
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post #4526 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Yes, when you say that you need to put flat frequency response in quotes. wink.gif
Sorry to beat the dead horse... but how do you define flat frequency response? I put it in quotes to emphasize the phrase as opposed to the individual words... guess I should have made it bold instead.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about it:
Quote:
When a system or component reproduces all desired input signals with no emphasis or attenuation of a particular frequency band, the system or component is said to be "flat", or to have a flat frequency response curve.
So when you finish calibrating, you have flat response, and if the EQ curve is dynamic and accurate, the flat line will move up and down in dB as you change the main volume remaining flat. But if you turn up the sub only, then the line will look like the pic bossobass posted above on post #4520. The line will still move up and down without changing shape (assuming the calibration is good) but it won't be flat anymore regardless of volume.

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post #4527 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 12:45 PM
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TimVG,

Man you gotta fix that ~70hz dip of 20dB!!! RIght in the kick drum wheelhouse. That frequency should be alive and well on the ported caps!Have you tried changing the driver facing orientation? Distance from wall, ect. That's a big hit on music sound in my experience.


We recently had a similar problem with bluesprings1's ported caps.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1186832/jtr-captivator/3700_20#post_22204915

The solution in his case was actually moving his listening position three feet forward, which doesn't sound like would work for you - - - but I'd recommend trying whatever you can to fix that big null at your listening position! I bet your opinion on the subs would jump quite a bit when you get that strong kick drum in play!

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post #4528 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 12:48 PM
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Should be alive and well with any subwoofer system. It's a listening position/room related problem, obviously. Could be remedied with alternate positioning and/or multi-sub solution.

I've got a very similar problem with my system but my dip is ~50hz. It sucks. frown.gif

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post #4529 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Yes, when you say that you need to put flat frequency response in quotes. wink.gif
Sorry to beat the dead horse... but how do you define flat frequency response? I put it in quotes to emphasize the phrase as opposed to the individual words... guess I should have made it bold instead.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about it:
Quote:
When a system or component reproduces all desired input signals with no emphasis or attenuation of a particular frequency band, the system or component is said to be "flat", or to have a flat frequency response curve.
So when you finish calibrating, you have flat response, and if the EQ curve is dynamic and accurate, the flat line will move up and down in dB as you change the main volume remaining flat. But if you turn up the sub only, then the line will look like the pic bossobass posted above on post #4520. The line will still move up and down without changing shape (assuming the calibration is good) but it won't be flat anymore regardless of volume.



Flat applies to the full bandwidth, not just bass frequencies. I have not seen many postings on AVS that show a flat full range frequency response.

In addition if you play back your system below the calibrated" reference level" master volume setting, is "measured flat" the correct FR for the system?
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post #4530 of 26724 Old 07-19-2012, 01:14 PM
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My system can be flat full bandwidth which happens to sound awesome like that. During demos I will bump up the LFE a little. I remember when I had 4 subs, dual DTS-10 and dual CS 18.2's, located in the 4 corners, and I played a demo for another member. I had it EQ'd and calibrated flat from 10hz to 15khz. He said his single THT sound like it had more bass. I told him he either runs it really hot or it is not EQ'd and there is a big peak since he never measured. We figured out that he was running about 10-12 dBs hot from 22hz and up. So I turned up the LFE 10 dBs and he then said that is what he is used to except mine went deeper.

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