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post #4681 of 18605 Old 08-01-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Looking for a great demo disc?
Go to Walmart and pickup a copy of Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
on BD for $5.
Reference quality picture and foundation shaking lossless audio.
61XcKh8ZcNL__SL500_SS500_.jpg

A demo worthy pick to be sure but a crapfest of a movie.

Kaboom.
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post #4682 of 18605 Old 08-01-2012, 10:27 AM
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A demo worthy pick to be sure but a crapfest of a movie.

Can't beat it for only five bucks! biggrin.gif

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post #4683 of 18605 Old 08-01-2012, 11:42 AM
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Can't beat it for only five bucks! biggrin.gif

I beg to differ... I tossed it back into the five dollar bin in favor of American Psycho on BR. Who needs five star LFE when you can have a monologue on Phil Collins and Genesis tongue.gif
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post #4684 of 18605 Old 08-01-2012, 11:50 AM
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The wife and I watched Batman Begins last night. She turns to me and says "Whoa, check out Scarecrow's voice!".

Indeed:

BatmanBeginsScarecrow.png

So much for "Below 20 Hz is [fill in the blank with incorrect assessment], so why have it?". Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz.

Great flick and great night at the home movies. cool.gif
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post #4685 of 18605 Old 08-01-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

I beg to differ... I tossed it back into the five dollar bin in favor of American Psycho on BR.

I would have tossed American Psycho in the trash can, because of lousy picture and audio quality.
Never settle for mediocre blu-ray releases.
Your sending the wrong message to the studios.

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post #4686 of 18605 Old 08-01-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The wife and I watched Batman Begins last night. She turns to me and says "Whoa, check out Scarecrow's voice!".
Indeed:
So much for "Below 20 Hz is [fill in the blank with incorrect assessment], so why have it?". Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz.
Great flick and great night at the home movies. cool.gif

Oh yes. That's an older documented single digit cap right there. I know you do all your graphs at the LP now but measured digitally, there is plenty of content in his voice ~2hz. eek.gif

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post #4687 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

I would have tossed American Psycho in the trash can, because of lousy picture and audio quality.
Never settle for mediocre blu-ray releases.
Your sending the wrong message to the studios.

I told them I like seeing Blu-Ray movies in the five dollar bin. I wouldn't have spent a dime more than that... the same BR up here in Canada is $10. Got my copy of American Psycho the last time I was in the US, a few weeks ago.

Transformers 2 on the other hand was such a bad movie I don't think I'll ever buy it. I don't need to when I own so many other five star LFE movies. At least I get some entertainment from AP.

But who knows... if it's still in the five dollar bin next time I'm in the US, I might go ahead and get it to have it for the Rifftrax.
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post #4688 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The wife and I watched Batman Begins last night. She turns to me and says "Whoa, check out Scarecrow's voice!".

Indeed:

BatmanBeginsScarecrow.png

So much for "Below 20 Hz is [fill in the blank with incorrect assessment], so why have it?". Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz.

Great flick and great night at the home movies. cool.gif



"Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz?" I don't think so (as can be seen in your partial waterfall). Everyone can hear the words that Scarecrow speaks, and those words are clearly in the audible range!

Batman Begins is still a great movie even when the sound system only matches up with the frequencies that the sound mixers can monitor on their systems!
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post #4689 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

"Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz?" I don't think so (as can be seen in your partial waterfall). Everyone can hear the words that Scarecrow speaks, and those words are clearly in the audible range!
Batman Begins is still a great movie even when the sound system only matches up with the frequencies that the sound mixers can monitor on their systems!

Of course I'm referring to the LFE on his voice, for those who are in a coma, or the wrong thread.

What you meant to say is that when you watch BB, Scarecrow's voice sounds like everyone else's in the movie. smile.gif

Regarding the content of the effect, unless they purposely filter it, sound mixers are irrelevant, as this case in point illustrates.

As always, I appreciate your scanning all threads looking for some way to counter everything I post on the subject, but I really think you should consider retirement. cool.gif
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post #4690 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 03:27 PM
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Bosso,

I cannot tell you how much better browsing this forum is with the 'block' function engaged on some folks. I'll have to remember BB when I upgrade the LFE system (hopefully sooner rather than later).


JSS
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post #4691 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Regarding the content of the effect, unless they purposely filter it, sound mixers are irrelevant, as this case in point illustrates.

Care to elaborate?
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post #4692 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Bosso,
I cannot tell you how much better browsing this forum is with the 'block' function engaged on some folks. I'll have to remember BB when I upgrade the LFE system (hopefully sooner rather than later).
JSS
You don't own Batman Begins already? For shame. tongue.gif

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post #4693 of 18605 Old 08-02-2012, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Care to elaborate?

I wanna say that he means that mixers don't create the content that would or would not have infra content.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #4694 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So much for "Below 20 Hz is [fill in the blank with incorrect assessment], so why have it?"

My fill in: "...probably not really monitored by film mixers and therefore does not necessarily represent what the director intended..."

If they (the movie industry) would define flat to 5Hz as reference, I would probably spend more effort on getting another 10 subs but there is no such reference specification.

Markus

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post #4695 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You don't own Batman Begins already? For shame. tongue.gif

I have BB, but no monitoring capability below 15Hz.

JSS
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post #4696 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I wanna say that he means that mixers don't create the content that would or would not have infra content.

Since some (most?) mixing stages cannot effectively monitor below 25Hz, an effect that is mainly below would require monitoring by something other than just hearing the effect, something like an RTA or an FFT program like spec lab...

JSS
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post #4697 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Since some (most?) mixing stages cannot effectively monitor below 25Hz, an effect that is mainly below would require monitoring by something other than just hearing the effect, something like an RTA or an FFT program like spec lab...
JSS

I'd appreciate FilmMixer commenting on how they handle those ultra low frequency contents while mixing.

Markus

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post #4698 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Bosso,

I cannot tell you how much better browsing this forum is with the 'block' function engaged on some folks. I'll have to remember BB when I upgrade the LFE system (hopefully sooner rather than later).


JSS


You should monitor the ULF in the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Check out the waterfall where the dialog goes:

"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries."
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post #4699 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

"Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz?" I don't think so (as can be seen in your partial waterfall). Everyone can hear the words that Scarecrow speaks, and those words are clearly in the audible range!
Batman Begins is still a great movie even when the sound system only matches up with the frequencies that the sound mixers can monitor on their systems!

Of course I'm referring to the LFE on his voice, for those who are in a coma, or the wrong thread.

What you meant to say is that when you watch BB, Scarecrow's voice sounds like everyone else's in the movie. smile.gif

Regarding the content of the effect, unless they purposely filter it, sound mixers are irrelevant, as this case in point illustrates.

As always, I appreciate your scanning all threads looking for some way to counter everything I post on the subject, but I really think you should consider retirement. cool.gif



There is plenty of easily audible LFE above 20 Hz content per your waterfall, so I don't know what you are talking about when you make the claim that ""Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz". Care to elaborate or clarify on what you meant when you made that claim?
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post #4700 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There is plenty of easily audible LFE above 20 Hz content per your waterfall, so I don't know what you are talking about when you make the claim that ""Scarecrow's voice is all below 20 Hz". Care to elaborate or clarify on what you meant when you made that claim?

Well just look at the waterfall. There IS lots of energy below 20Hz.

The question is: is it there on purpose, i.e. would the mixer have handeled the sound differently when his monitoring could have reproduced those frequencies?
Another question is, what's the perceptual difference between adding such low frequency content either via subs or via bass shakers?

Markus

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post #4701 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 07:27 AM
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Anyone care to indicate which "scarecrow voice" sound effect in "Batman Begins" has that ULF?
I tried 3 different scenes in BB but failed to see that.
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post #4702 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Well just look at the waterfall. There IS lots of energy below 20Hz.
The question is: is it there on purpose, i.e. would the mixer have handeled the sound differently when his monitoring could have reproduced those frequencies?
Another question is, what's the perceptual difference between adding such low frequency content either via subs or via bass shakers?

Full Bandwith is more realistic. When someone records and explosion or whatever and they pick up low frequencies from it because it was there. Why would you get rid of it? Real life has these all the time so leaving them there makes it more real. Even recording voices, maybe in that room the HVAC was kicking in when Scarecrow was talking, that is what was going on in the room. Why get rid of that effect since it makes you feel that the HVAC was kicking on when watching. When you are in a room with a furnace or something there are low frequencies, I happen to like real effects or accurate recordings. The effect is the same when you are in a room when talking and then your furnace kicks on, or your air conditioning, their is a sudden thump and low frequency waves, that it how it should be when watching a movie, more realistic.
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Movies are about realism? smile.gif I think it's more about effects and that's why I would fully understand if there was a 10Hz reference specification, but there is none.

Markus

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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I wanna say that he means that mixers don't create the content that would or would not have infra content.

That's not always the case.. sometimes the sound designers/editors do it, sometimes we do.
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post #4705 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 08:28 AM
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Movies are about realism? smile.gif I think it's more about effects and that's why I would fully understand if there was a 10Hz reference specification, but there is none.

The more realistic the effects the better! A movie is about entertainment and to some, story telling. The dolby LFE spec is 3-120hz. How loud and how much LFE there is varies with each movie. The movies with real recorded sounds and then unfiltered always have the most ULF's. Maybe filmmixer can tell us if there are people who actually put added ULF's in that are not recorded just for the effect?
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post #4706 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I'd appreciate FilmMixer commenting on how they handle those ultra low frequency contents while mixing.

It's as varied as the mixers...

I can only speak for myself.

I don't filter, and I don't monitor moment to moment on an RTA....

When this subject first came up, I started talking to a bunch of sound designers and mixers about how they handle it.

I haven't found anyone who was monitoring much below 18Hz... and a lot of sound designers I spoke to were not interested in creating much below 18Hz.

What I did find in specific cases, however, was that some mixers, knowing how low the content was, and some of them actively creating it, and also having a full understanding that our systems weren't recreating it, liked the way the LFE "felt" with the ULF rater than without (which is most surely a function of how the enclosures are reacting to the content, rather than the "audible benefits..")
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The more realistic the effects the better! A movie is about entertainment and to some, story telling. The dolby LFE spec is 3-120hz. How loud and how much LFE there is varies with each movie. The movies with real recorded sounds and then unfiltered always have the most ULF's. Maybe filmmixer can tell us if there are people who actually put added ULF's in that are not recorded just for the effect?

EQing sounds is a mixer's bread and butter.

Markus

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The more realistic the effects the better! A movie is about entertainment and to some, story telling. The dolby LFE spec is 3-120hz. How loud and how much LFE there is varies with each movie. The movies with real recorded sounds and then unfiltered always have the most ULF's.

That is Dolby's spec for the recordable bandwidth, not the requirements for reproduction through a subwoofer, just to be clear.
Quote:
Maybe filmmixer can tell us if there are people who actually put added ULF's in that are not recorded just for the effect?

Yes, as is evidenced but some of the tracks you guys love so much.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

It's as varied as the mixers...
I can only speak for myself.
I don't filter, and I don't monitor moment to moment on an RTA....
When this subject first came up, I started talking to a bunch of sound designers and mixers about how they handle it.
I haven't found anyone who was monitoring much below 18Hz... and a lot of sound designers I spoke to were not interested in creating much below 18Hz.
What I did find in specific cases, however, was that some mixers, knowing how low the content was, and some of them actively creating it, and also having a full understanding that our systems weren't recreating it, liked the way the LFE "felt" with the ULF rater than without (which is most surely a function of how the enclosures are reacting to the content, rather than the "audible benefits..")

Thanks for the insight Marc. This was also my understanding how things are handled.
I'm not entirely decided on the topic but it's probably more practical to add ULF via bass shakers than with monster subs and amps.

Markus

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post #4710 of 18605 Old 08-03-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post



I don't filter, and I don't monitor moment to moment on an RTA....




The SpectrumLab waterfalls shown on this thread are not RTA weighted waterfalls, so the audio content would look different even if you monitored moment to moment with an RTA program.
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