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Old 10-21-2013, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yea my goal is + -3 to5db down to 7hz. EeeK! With no smoothing!

+/-3db down to 7hz is great and all but can you do that at reference? I would much rather have a setup that is capable of reference level output from 15hz on up opposed to a setup that has extension into the 7hz range but can not play reference below 20hz. I am not saying your setup is not capable, just pointing out that a basic frequency response sweep does not tell the whole story as MKTheatre pointed out. You need to take a MAX Spl sweep and compare it with your 90db sweep and compare the change in FR or compression.
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:38 AM
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Yeah, I take compression sweeps and THD graphs. One now can look at the distortion from the sweeps! I always did it the hard way and learn new things everyday.

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Old 10-21-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wait until you see how awesome your graph looks after tweaking at say 90 dBs and then you take it to say 115 dBs and now it is not flat! That is when you add more eek.gif

Compression sweeps really show you what is going on, when the response starts changing the system is starting to compress whether due to nulls or lack of displacement or power. You can EQ nulls as much as you want but they show up when the volume changes regardless because it robs you of the headroom at that frequency. Sub placement and room treatments are so important in getting the flattest and smoothest response as possible without EQ.

Oh yea I know what you guys are saying. I certainly don't expect to 115db at 7 hz. In fact I don't want to. My rental has wood paneling and some older type ceiling. I did hit 105 db and that was intense. I don't have a desire to go higher. Well I do but I don't want to damage anything. I don't know where my line starts to fade below reference. 20hz, 16hz, 13hz? Prob about 16 if I had to make a educated guess. Maybe a tad lower. I do know I have found my permanent placement after many REW raw sub graphs the last couple weeks. I do get right at 8db room gain across the board which is also nice! I played the WWZ grenade scene at -13 and the room sounded like it was going to cave in once it hit the infrasonic. My fiancé looked very worried and said I better be careful

I actually want to develop a house curve rising 8db from 100hz to 30hz. Then let it roll flat behind that, and or down below 15hz

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Old 10-21-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


The rule of thump is that we hear at 1/6th smoothing.

Hitherto unknown terminology--thank you biggrin.gif

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:32 PM
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Hitherto unknown terminology--thank you biggrin.gif

Hey, creators have to start somewhere. biggrin.gif

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Old 10-21-2013, 05:29 PM
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Any frequency charts on the movie Ronin?

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Old 10-21-2013, 09:08 PM
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Well for all you single digit nuts, I think I may develop a house curve that rolls behind 15hz. The super low just is a bit much on my rental. :/. I need a concrete bunker with a subfloor in it to get tactile feel still.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Well for all you single digit nuts, I think I may develop a house curve that rolls behind 15hz. The super low just is a bit much on my rental. :/. I need a concrete bunker with a subfloor in it to get tactile feel still.

Don't do it for us. Do it for you!
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:12 AM
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Don't do it for us. Do it for you!

Oh yea totally. I will develop the curve that sounds and feels the best. I am in one 15amp circuit too so that's a another reason. Although a 105 db sweep, spiking to 110 didn't trip anything. Good times!

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:33 AM
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Man of steel has decent bass, if I have to guest: 30hz and above but the surrounds are loud. Anyone notices the surrounds being loud? 3D has great depth too. I am surprise that I like this movie better than PR.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Man of steel has decent bass, if I have to guest: 30hz and above but the surrounds are loud. Anyone notices the surrounds being loud? 3D has great depth too. I am surprise that I like this movie better than PR.
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Continuing the trend of filtered ULF, Man of Steel:

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Old 10-22-2013, 11:32 AM
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I wish I had an extra pair of hands so I could give this 4 thumbs down!

#chappelleshow
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Man of steel has decent bass, if I have to guest: 30hz and above but the surrounds are loud. Anyone notices the surrounds being loud? 3D has great depth too. I am surprise that I like this movie better than PR.

I haven't seen MOS yet, but as to surrounds being loud I've noticed this trend a lot recently on the bluray 'premium' mixes. From reading up on the sound guys' discussions it seems they are remixing the soundtrack with the surrounds hotter than in the theatrical mixes, imo probably part of a strategy to remix to a lower target volume and overall dynamic level to be more home friendly/system friendly.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:03 PM
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For, example, in my tests where we measured voltage out of the SW jack and out of a PEQ after the SW jack, we tried many combinations of MVL and SW trim level with varying amounts of PEQ boost within the subwoofer bandwidth. What we found is that when, say, the MVL is at reference and you bump the SW trim to 'run the sub hot', there comes a point where the voltage no longer increases as you bump the SW trim. That basically meant that the systems SW out signal reached a ceiling and was clipping. The further you bump the SW trim beyond that point, the worse the clipping would become, as common sense would suggest.

There are no clip indicators on consumer gear. So, the average user who bumps the sub "11dB hot" is almost certainly sending a clipped signal to the amplifier, but has no idea that's the case.

All amplifiers have a sensitivity rating. That number tells you how many Vi (volts input) are required to drive the amplifier to full output power. A general rule number is 2V. That is, if you send the amplifier a 2V peak signal from your SW output of the AVR (plus any outboard gear like DSP EQ), the gain attenuator control knob (what most people call the 'volume' knob on the sub amp) can be full open (when turned fully clockwise). This is technically referred to as being set to minus infinity attenuation, or no attenuation. As you turn the amps gain control counterclockwise you attenuate or reduce the gain, but, the whole range of fully counterclockwise to fully clockwise is within safe operation for the input voltage.

Your calibration of the subwoofer to flat with the satellites should be with the amps gain control around 12-2 O'clock and the SW trim around '0'. You can then 'run the subs hot' by turning the amps gain knob clockwise all the way up to fully clockwise with no ill effects because the input signal is not changing.

Conversely, if the amplifiers input sensitivity and input voltage are matched and you choose to run the subs hot by bumping the SW trim/MVL/PEQ Boost (increasing the V of the signal to the sub amp), you risk several consequences, none of them desirable. First, as our measurements showed, the signal from the AVR/DSP, etc., to the sub amp was easily severely clipped when playing scenes from movies like WOTW in extreme settings conditions (such as +10dB SW trim with +3dBRL MVL, EQ boost, etc.). Second, since the amplifier only requires 2V input to reach maximum output, sending a signal with 10V peaks will cause amplifier protection circuits to kick in (clip limiters, current limiters, voltage limiters, etc) because, regardless of where the amps gain control knob is set, you are severely overdriving the amp. Worse, the amplifier is now amplifying a clipped signal, again, regardless of where the amps gain control knob is set.

With commercial subs, there are no indicator lights to let you know when protection circuits have kicked in, preventing damage due to compressing/clipping/over temp/over voltage, etc. Even if there were, they would be on the back side of the sub where you generally won't see them anyway. Of course, it stands to reason that cheaper sub amplifiers have less effective protection circuitry and when the sub is faced with this sort of abuse, the amp fails (MFW-15, Ed, etc.). But, in the case of a good amp with good protection circuitry, just because the protection devices are preventing disaster doesn't mean the resulting playback is a good result. Distortion, compression and clipping are all bad things to be avoided and have been discussed here from the beginning of the forum.

If you have a commercial sub and a popular AVR with no PEQ in the chain and you calibrate flat with the sub amps gain around 12-2 O'clock and the SW trim at '0' or less, then bumping the sub a few dB using the SW trim will not be a problem. If you begin with a system that isn't properly gain matched and you run the SW trim up +11dB and you have any sort of PEQ boost in line, you will very likely experience negative results.
Thank you very much for this detailed explanation of gain, bosso - it's very well timed as I am thinking about gain on my hopefully forthcoming DIY build at the moment!


I'm still not sure I completely understand it, though... re:
Quote:
Your calibration of the subwoofer to flat with the satellites should be with the amps gain control around 12-2 O'clock and the SW trim around '0'. You can then 'run the subs hot' by turning the amps gain knob clockwise all the way up to fully clockwise with no ill effects because the input signal is not changing.
Is this saying that you correctly calibrate to 75dB (or whatever your AVR calibrates to) with correctly calibrated gain sensitivity on the amp via tweaking the gain attenuation knob until it's correct? And then if you want more output, you can tweak the gain attenuation knob upwards, to reduce the attenuation?

Say, for example, your amp is 1000w and you need all of that to deliver Reference level. If it's calibrated as above then you are already using all 1000w - won't turning the gain attenuation knob up (i.e. reducing attenuation and increasing output) therefore have no effect? Or will it tip the output into clipping by raising the levels where it can and just chopping the tops of the curves off where it's already at max output (therefore effectively reducing dynamic range)??

If the above is true, is it correct to assume that increasing the power of the amp by buying another one with more output, say 2000w, is the way to go (ignoring driver capabilities for the sake of this discussion) because it will have the ability to output Reference level with 1000w but still have 1000w of headroom to increase the gain into if you want to go a bit mad and run the subs hot?


And, to ask another question...

Is it correct to say that you don't have to have the gain attenuation knob turned all the way up (i.e. zero gain attenuation) to get all the power out of the amp, assuming the AVR is asking the amp to put out enough output to reach Reference (or whatever) at some single-digit frequency, which requires a lot of output?


Apologies - I feel like I have this half-clear in my head but it's still a little fuzzy...
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Any frequency charts on the movie Ronin?
The one with Robert De Niro in?

I love that film smile.gif but it's old now - I would say nothing really below about 30Hz, from what I've watched of it on BluRay. (I really should finish watching it at some point... lol)
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:05 PM
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Any one knows which version of DVD Master & Commender I should get? There are tow versions on Amazon
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:10 AM
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^^ They all look the same to me, other than price and whether the extras disc is included. The movie disc is the same.

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Old 10-23-2013, 01:30 PM
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Any one knows which version of DVD Master & Commender I should get? There are tow versions on Amazon
This one.http://www.amazon.com/Master-Commander-Side-World-Widescreen/dp/B0001HLVS2/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1382559602&sr=1-1&keywords=master+and+commander

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Old 10-23-2013, 01:34 PM
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:57 PM
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I want to chronicle all the best & most well-known bass sweeps in movies. I mean real bass sweeps, not just big bass moments or changes in frequency - sweeps are recognizable by their distinctive sound & shape in a spectrograph.

Here is the first batch, with links to the overall measurements of each movie:

Transformers - Ironhide Flip (1:56:01 - 1:56:15)



War of the Worlds - Pods Emerge (0:24:56 - 0:25:00)



Oblivion - Rappelling Rope Breaks (0:19:00 - 0:19:13)



World War Z - First Grenade (1:05:30 - 1:05:35)



Tron:Legacy - Entering The Grid (0:23:07 - 0:23.17)



The Great Gatsby - Drunken Harlem Debauchery (0:21:30 - 0:22:30)



The Man with the Iron Fists - Beginning (00:00:06 - 00:00:21)



Transformers 2 - Revenge of the Fallen - Warehouse Firefight (before OP dies) (0:58:35 - 0:58:44)



Monsters, Inc - Boo's Laugh (0:30:34 - 0:30:40)



The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - Sauron is Defeated (0:04:10 - 0:04:20)



Live Free or Die Hard - Tunnel Chase - (0:42:45 - 0:42:53)



Pulse - Server Room (1:13:04 - 1:14:20)



The Incredible Hulk - Sonic Cannons (0:54:50 - 0:54:57)



Oz the Great and Powerful - Evanora midairs Glinda (1:40:38 - 1:40:45)



The Hunger Games - The Reaping (0:10:00 - 0:16:45)



Elysium - The Reboot (1:39:14 - 1:39-34)




I can't remember them all. If you want to see others, reply with the exact timestamp & movie name, and I'll add them to this post as time goes on.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:19 PM
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Thanks Nube,

I think the following may qualify as a bass sweep atleast it feels that way to me and I’d like to see the graph for it if possible:

Transformers 2 - Optimus Prime Flip. The timestamp is 58:35
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:21 PM
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Which WOTW's is that? I know there are two sweeps showing a long distance view of the first Pod emerging. It is very subtle. How low? I read before it was 5 hz.

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Old 10-23-2013, 02:22 PM
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Dredd has some as well. I think the Amazing spiderman too.

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Old 10-23-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

Little movie fest last night
Conjuring has some really nice LFE scenes
Digs pretty deep with some volume – nice surprise

The bass content in the Conjuring were some of the deepest I have ever heard in a movie theater, I hope they did not mess with the LFE track while transferring it to Blu-ray.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

Thanks Nube,

I think the following may qualify as a bass sweep atleast it feels that way to me and I’d like to see the graph for it if possible:

Transformers 2 - Optimus Prime Flip. The timestamp is 58:35

Thanks, I'll check it out. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Which WOTW's is that? I know there are two sweeps showing a long distance view of the first Pod emerging. It is very subtle. How low? I read before it was 5 hz.

The WOTW sweeps I listed are the same ones you're talking about. They're subtle, but there. I remember when I first built my sealed subs, watching and rewatching that whole scene because people talked about these awesome, super deep bass sweeps. Well, as it turns out, they're not that awesome in the pantheon of bass sweeps. It took me a long time to find them because, based on the talk surrounding them, I really was expecting something more.
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Dredd has some as well. I think the Amazing spiderman too.

Timestamps, man! Timestamps!
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:40 PM
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Thanks, I'll check it out. smile.gif
The WOTW sweeps I listed are the same ones you're talking about. They're subtle, but there. I remember when I first built my sealed subs, watching and rewatching that whole scene because people talked about these awesome, super deep bass sweeps. Well, as it turns out, they're not that awesome in the pantheon of bass sweeps. It took me a long time to find them because, based on the talk surrounding them, I really was expecting something more.
Timestamps, man! Timestamps!

Timestamps, I have to re-watch them again! My theater is down frown.gif

Maybe I can cheat and look for the graphs already done, if there were any they should be listed.

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Old 10-23-2013, 02:46 PM
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:52 PM
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Wow, That was quick! cool.gif
Thanks for posting the graph!
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:52 PM
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Nube,

This one may qualify as a bass sweep too and I always wanted to see a graph of it.

Monsters Inc - Boo's laugh - Timestamp is 30:44
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Old 10-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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My favorite bass sweep is from Bounty Killer. Its unique in that it pulses, its super hot too. Its not well known but it should be!
53-54 min
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