The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 391 - AVS Forum
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post #11701 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 11:21 AM
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Nube,

In all due respect, I was not talking to you. I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with you about this not being a classless move. If you are going to call out a man's work as hard as he did the last two posts, have the decency to do it with that man and not behind his back. Lame move IMO. frown.gif
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post #11702 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 11:30 AM
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I've seen his review threads- he wants nothing to do with anyone critiquing his results or methodology. It's not even worth the effort to go down that road.

So really, I'm not so much calling Ralph out- the objective data does that on it's own without any help from me. tongue.gif

I'm calling out anyone who uses these types of reviews as hard evidence of anything useful- mostly and especially related to the context of this thread.
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post #11703 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 11:32 AM
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By the way, this is the brand of A/V "science" that leads us to swapping power cords on our amps for more detail, clarity and "breathiness".

FFS! rolleyes.gif
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post #11704 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I've seen his review threads- he wants nothing to do with anyone critiquing his results or methodology. It's not even worth the effort to go down that road.

So really, I'm not so much calling Ralph out- the objective data does that on it's own without any help from me. tongue.gif

I'm calling out anyone who uses these types of reviews as hard evidence of anything useful- mostly and especially related to the context of this thread.

Until you have tried to bring up your passionate concerns in his actual thread, this is just an excuse for a $hitty move of a well respected AVS member IMO. Do what you feel the need to do though and let's move on as we are not going to agree on this obviously. rolleyes.gif
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post #11705 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 11:51 AM
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Toe,

No problem. smile.gif

It seems the pattern is that if a movie's loud from 30-80Hz, Ralph likes it. That's fine. smile.gif A lot of people here use a slightly different methodology. I don't really see any analysis in Ralph's reviews, other than that pattern.

So, for anyone to say something to the effect of, "If Ralph gave it 5 stars for bass, you know it's gotta be good," is a little over the top. Why? Because we now have an objective way to compare the bass in movies, thanks to maxmercy! Based on those early graphs of the movie, I suspect MoS will end up being a 3.5-4 star bass movie by the data-bass.com ratings system.
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post #11706 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 12:16 PM
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I don't think any movie with a filter should be scoring 5s.
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post #11707 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

I don't think any movie with a filter should be scoring 5s.

There are exceptions to every rule:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/?p=812

Clearly filtered, 5-Star Execution IMO.

JSS
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post #11708 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

There are exceptions to every rule:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/?p=812

Clearly filtered, 5-Star Execution IMO.

JSS
Sorry, meant 5s for extension. But you're right, there's always exceptions.
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post #11709 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Putting aside the topic at hand for a moment, instead of being a classless a$$ and talking $hit behind Ralph's back, how about at least having the decency to bring up your concerns in his thread and maybe in a more constructive manner. rolleyes.gif I don't always agree with Ralph and have even respectfully brought up this very topic in some of his reviews that I did not agree with, but he comes at this from a different angle vs the OCD hardcore bass heads (I say that compassionately as I am one) and is simply giving his subjective opinion (he is not checking the graphs before making his marks) with his equip in his room. In that sense, he is not wrong. Let's not also forget he is not just solely focused on ULF bass extension as his critique requires evaluating multiple areas at once (PQ, AQ, the writing, acting, etc...........) Either way, he is a classy nice guy and does not deserve to be bashed behind his back.

As far as MOS, yeah I don't like the look of the extension, but as always I will wait and give final judgment for when I actually view it in context with the on screen action.

Welcome back Toe wink.gif
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post #11710 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 01:37 PM
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Yes, placement of that filter is certainly important. Insane output down to 10Hz and filtered below is far better than we we got from MoS.

If we compare the two, one has a significant advantage in extension:



Care to guess which one Ralph Potts rated higher for low frequency extension?

Man of Steel.

Good grief, Percy Jackson's 20Hz is nearly +15dB over MoS, and 10hz is +20dB. This is a massive difference in extension. Massive.
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post #11711 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 01:47 PM
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^^^^^So nfraso, does that mean you won't watch the movie? and how did you correlate Ralphs rating for extension to the criteria here in this thread when the primary focus is below 20hz ? Also do you plan on becoming a reviewer yourself since you have such a problem with Ralphs contribution here on AVS? or is it possible for you to understand why the disc review thread exist and why the bass thread was created to focus on the solo topic of bass alone.
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post #11712 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 01:51 PM
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Not sure if any of those are real questions.

This thread has never been about watching or not watching movies- it's about bass.

"Low Frequency Extension" is the specific focus of criteria that Potts rates, and it can only mean one thing. Extension asks how low does it go?

Regardless, with what alternate criteria can you conclude that MoS extends lower than Percy Jackson to justify your ratings falling as such? rolleyes.gif
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post #11713 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 01:56 PM
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post #11714 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Not sure if any of those are real questions.

This thread has never been about watching or not watching movies- it's about bass.

but yet some how you link to Ralphs thread that happens to include watching movies

"Low Frequency Extension" is the specific focus of criteria that Potts rates, and it can only mean one thing. Extension asks how low does it go?

Who's criteria? "Potts rates" ( in relation to his subjective thread) and yes I agree 100% with you on extension "how low does it go" and that's when I get a more specific answer in the Bass thread as that the reason it exsist wink.gif

Regardless, with what alternate criteria can you conclude that MoS extends lower than Percy Jackson to justify your ratings falling as such? rolleyes.gif

My ratings ? I haven't seen the movie so I can't speak to that end.
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post #11715 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

My ratings ? I haven't seen the movie so I can't speak to that end.

I'm not asking you to rate it- it's the hypothetical that you raised.

You're (I guess) defending Potts' ratings as if he is using a different criteria for Low Frequency Extension.

So I'm asking, hypothetically, what possible alternate criteria could be used for a Low Frequency Extension rating such that the result would yield MoS having a higher rating than Percy Jackson.

Potts gave Man of Steel a perfect 5-star rating for Low Frequency Extension. He gave Percy Jackson only a 4.5-star rating.

You can see the data above for yourself.

What's the mystery criteria that could defend this rating?
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post #11716 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I'm not asking you to rate it- it's the hypothetical that you raised.

You're (I guess) defending Potts' ratings as if he is using a different criteria for Low Frequency Extension.

So I'm asking, hypothetically, what possible alternate criteria could be used for a Low Frequency Extension rating such that the result would yield MoS having a higher rating than Percy Jackson.

Potts gave Man of Steel a perfect 5-star rating for Low Frequency Extension. He gave Percy Jackson only a 4.5-star rating.

You can see the data above for yourself.

What's the mystery criteria that could defend this rating?

Did you see any graphs on ralphs thread? and define what Low frequency Extension is other than what has been defined here in the bass thread due to the use of graphs which contain LFE and ULF? or below 120? 80? 60? etc.. I suspect if Ralph adopted the use of graphs to his thread and then reported 5 stars accordingly your point would have merit but as he does n't your posting on things that have no relation to one another and should be easy to deduce wink.gif
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post #11717 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Toe,

No problem. smile.gif

It seems the pattern is that if a movie's loud from 30-80Hz, Ralph likes it. That's fine. smile.gif A lot of people here use a slightly different methodology. I don't really see any analysis in Ralph's reviews, other than that pattern.

So, for anyone to say something to the effect of, "If Ralph gave it 5 stars for bass, you know it's gotta be good," is a little over the top. Why? Because we now have an objective way to compare the bass in movies, thanks to maxmercy! Based on those early graphs of the movie, I suspect MoS will end up being a 3.5-4 star bass movie by the data-bass.com ratings system.

I get it..........

As I said, Ralph comes at these reviews from a much different perspective than the objective hard core lets focus on one single aspect of the track (bass) ULF bass heads and I am not saying that is good, bad, whatever.........it is what it is. Ralph is obviously not considering data-bass in his reviews which is OK as well since he is simply giving a subjective opinion with his equip, ears, etc..........and he speaks more for the common man as the vast majority of people don't focus anywhere near what we do on the low end (which is OK). In light of that, if you don't like his review methodology, don't read his reviews and if you have a concern or issue with him or his reviews like the poster I responded to, at least have the balls to do it to him in his thread and not behind his back, and do it respectfully which is the only way there will be any hope of a constructive outcome.


Me? I am a big fan of data-bass and I am also a big fan of Ralph and his reviews and neither is perfect, but they both serve a very valuable purpose. Data-bass is a fantastic objective resource and I have given kudos to what has been done there many times, but it's still not perfect. A track like Inception for example has an objective 4.5 star rating, but personally I find that track one of the most awkward and flat out unpleasing bass/LFE experiences on blu ray. I don't enjoy it even though it hits high marks objectively and it would NEVER come close to being "demo" material for me and subjectively for me it is nowhere CLOSE to a 4.5 star overall LFE experience. Another one is Pulse at a 4.75 which has one big bass scene (server room) and again, to me it is not the most pleasing bass experience. It's loud, supports the film well and so on, but it certainly would not make my personal demo list as I simply just don't find it that pleasing in light of the competition..............point of all this being, no grading scale is perfect whether it be db, Ralph's, etc......

I will end my rant, but if you are going to come down as hard as the poster I responded to did on one of our own well respected AVS guys, at least do it in their thread and in a respectful tone. I strongly feel what the poster did who I responded to was classless, cheap and flat out lame. Ralph is a solid, classy guy and he doesn't deserve that kind of treatment. If you feel so strongly opposed to his review process, don't read his work, but bashing it behind his back serves absolutely zero purpose.
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post #11718 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Did you see any graphs on ralphs thread? and define what Low frequency Extension is other than what has been defined here in the bass thread due to the use of graphs which contain LFE and ULF? or below 120? 80? 60? etc.. I suspect if Ralph adopted the use of graphs to his thread and then reported 5 stars accordingly your point would have merit but as he does n't your posting on things that have no relation to one another and should be easy to deduce wink.gif

Ralph is the one using the term Low Frequency Extension. You seem to be missing that fact.

This term only has one meaning, it's fairly self explanatory.

Just because he didn't objectively measure the extension doesn't mean he's any less wrong in saying Man of Steel extends lower than Percy Jackson, for example.

I'm demonstrating why this is a useless rating system that tells us absolutely nothing.

If you can come up with something else it represents, we're all ears.
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post #11719 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:36 PM
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Toe, you're under the impression that this is a new observation. It is not. Take a moment to search this thread for "Ralph" and you'll find his reviews have been under fire for a long time. He is certainly aware, and has no interest in engaging.

There's no reason for me to take this to his thread if everyone over there is happy the way things are. If he wants to come here and defend his ratings to us, great.
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post #11720 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Yes, placement of that filter is certainly important. Insane output down to 10Hz and filtered below is far better than we we got from MoS.

If we compare the two, one has a significant advantage in extension:



Care to guess which one Ralph Potts rated higher for low frequency extension?

Man of Steel.

Good grief, Percy Jackson's 20Hz is nearly +15dB over MoS, and 10hz is +20dB. This is a massive difference in extension. Massive.


So the F*)# what! We have already established that Ralph grades on a purely subjective basis and that means his impressions will not always line up with the objective data. Ralph grades a track by the way most normal folk would (how many people besides us nut jobs actually study graphs of bass tracks in movies??????) by simply listening to it in accordance with the on screen action and reviewing it as such with his equip, room, ears, etc........that means he is not always going to be accurate once the objective data hits, but is that a big shock? There have been tracks I thought dug deeper than the actual objective data ended up showing and tracks that subjectively did not seem to dig quite as deep as they did and when you fly without a net and review like that, which again is how the VAST majority of people will watch the film, you are going to be objectively wrong at times, but again this is still very valuable info as most people will relate more to this than a group of OCD bass heads. I don't get how some could be so surprised by his or anyone else when grading a track like this, especially in light of all the other variables between viewers and setups.
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post #11721 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:44 PM
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More Potts reviews:

Pacific Rim got a 5-star Low Frequency Extension rating.

Oblivion got only a 4.5-star Low Frequency Extension rating.

This is just ridiculous.
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post #11722 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

So the F*)# what! We have already established that Ralph grades on a purely subjective basis and that means his impressions will not always line up with the objective data. Ralph grades a track by the way most normal folk would (how many people besides us nut jobs actually study graphs of bass tracks in movies??????) by simply listening to it in accordance with the on screen action and reviewing it as such with his equip, room, ears, etc........that means he is not always going to be accurate once the objective data hits, but is that a big shock? There have been tracks I thought dug deeper than the actual objective data ended up showing and tracks that subjectively did not seem to dig quite as deep as they did and when you fly without a net and review like that, which again is how the VAST majority of people will watch the film, you are going to be objectively wrong at times, but again this is still very valuable info as most people will relate more to this than a group of OCD bass heads. I don't get how some could be so surprised by his or anyone else when grading a track like this, especially in light of all the other variables between viewers and setups.

Yes, so you agree with me.

Ralph Potts' reviews have absolutely zero use to anyone here in the context of this thread.
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post #11723 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

More Potts reviews:

Pacific Rim got a 5-star Low Frequency Extension rating.

Oblivion got only a 4.5-star Low Frequency Extension rating.

This is just ridiculous.

YOU are ridiculous. Read my post right above yours. Is it really that crazy that his subjective impressions will not always line up with the objective outcome? You don't like his review methodology, don't read them, but to continually bash his reviews here is cheap.

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post #11724 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Yes, so you agree with me.

Ralph Potts' reviews have absolutely zero use to anyone here in the context of this thread.




Don't put words in my mouth as I did not say that. This thread by the way is not data-bass and not everyone uses the same grading scale here since if you read the OP, it is HIGHLY open to interpretation as far as how one could and should rate a bass track which is the beauty of db as they avoided that issue (and learned from this thread) by establishing a firm set of guide lines. In light of that, it could be argued that Ralph's reviews have plenty of use in this thread. wink.gif

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post #11725 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Toe, you're under the impression that this is a new observation. It is not. Take a moment to search this thread for "Ralph" and you'll find his reviews have been under fire for a long time. He is certainly aware, and has no interest in engaging.

There's no reason for me to take this to his thread if everyone over there is happy the way things are. If he wants to come here and defend his ratings to us, great.

You don't speak for all of us this isn't your private thread wink.gif

I'm out, have a good one smile.gif
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post #11726 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

YOU are ridiculous. Read my post right above yours. Is it really that crazy that his subjective impressions will not always line up with the objective outcome? You don't like his review methodology, don't read them, but to continually bash his reviews here is cheap.

I don't care what method he uses to come to his conclusions.

In the end they are either accurate or not.

To be useful to us here, they would have to be accurate. They aren't.

This is pretty simple.

This is no different than audiofan1 posting in this thread that the 5.1 track on Pacific Rim has more extension!

No, it doesn't. It's freaking identical to the 7.1 track. I don't care how you feel about it subjectively, it's wrong.

Of what use is wrong information?

This thread is titled, "The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts".

Notice that last part? It gives us a simple method of proving whether something is or isn't, so we don't have to continue to rely on subjective BS.
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post #11727 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 02:55 PM
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I'm out of this conversation as well before I get another infraction. I stand by my posts and opinions, you guys don't agree, fine. Hope we can get back to talking bass without cheap attacks on well respected AVS members.

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post #11728 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 03:02 PM
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Again, I'm not making cheap attacks on Ralph. His ratings simply have no use to us in the context of this thread and the purpose here. We need objective data, and we have accurate means of attaining it.

Let's stick to discussing that.
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post #11729 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 03:08 PM
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I've never been to this thread before. Is it always like this? :rolleyes:

 

Seriously, I just wanted to thank you guys for the good information on all of these movies. I look forward to referencing this thread as I enjoy my new sub.

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post #11730 of 18953 Old 11-08-2013, 03:12 PM
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Ralph has his thread, I like his objective opinion, I combine his with this thread to make my own opinion, each has its own dimensions. But all together, I so hates this iteration of superman. They killed supermans character. He may never get his soul back.
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