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post #1171 of 19036 Old 09-26-2011, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I completely agree...I wanted to do a lot more but she wasn't having it. I had 10 different clips picked out but was falling asleep as I was doing this. The only thing she liked about the whole thing was the blindfold. I understand that there was no scientific validity to my half assed tests....

Hey, I'm impressed she stuck around to do even six tests!
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post #1172 of 19036 Old 09-26-2011, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I completely agree...I wanted to do a lot more but she wasn't having it. I had 10 different clips picked out but was falling asleep as I was doing this. The only thing she liked about the whole thing was the blindfold. I understand that there was no scientific validity to my half assed tests....

she likes blindfolds? you're a lucky man.

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post #1173 of 19036 Old 09-26-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The M&C 2008 and 2011 Blu-ray versions are not "identical"!

Hey, J. I noticed that the digibook packing is new. What else has been changed? I seriously doubt the a/v streams are any different from the older BD version.

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post #1174 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 01:22 AM
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FilmMixer, I just wanted to say I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of your posts... it is great to have such a knowledgeable person posting here... and also, thanks for doing what you do... I have also enjoyed much of your work.

I have a theory on why it seems a majority of folks say DTS-MA sounds better than Dolby TrueHD.

We are creatures of habit, and every time I start a movie, I set my volume dial to -10dB. If it's too loud or soft near the beginning, I will adjust it (not usually more than 2dB). Then from there I leave it be and get immersed in the movie. But obviously that is not a perfect way to "calibrate" that I'm listening to all my movies at the same level... and louder of course sounds "better" especially when it comes to how much LFE you hear/feel. So when the movie ends, I sometimes feel like it didn't sound as good as I was hoping, but that could be that it just wasn't as loud as it should have been.

Someone brought up that Dialnorm is used more in Dolby mixes than DTS. I don't know if that is the culprit, but overall, I'd say more often than not, I turn down my DTS-MA movies a notch or two, and turn up my Dolby TrueHD ones. I know the codec is not to blame, but it does seem to be that more of my Dolby movies "sound" quieter.

I also suspect a similar phenomenon causing so many people to hear a difference between Lossy and Lossless. In my experience lossless typically is a little quieter than lossy (that may even be the fault of the decoder), so you have to turn up your amp more for the lossless... and once you've done that, it probably performs a bit differently and you've lost the perfect test conditions.

So the real problem here is: Nobody has a perfect A/B test. And when you finally do, nobody can tell the difference between any of the codecs we're discussing: DD, DTS, DTHD, DTS-MA, or the Studio Master.

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post #1175 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

just finished the pacific series...WOW!..awsome...d day on iwo...may be some of the best quality bass I have heard in a while...AMAZING...thought the house was gonna come down when the bombs were hitting. Gonna buy it!

Yes thats what I was saying on my last post a day ago. Awesome movie, very low LFE.
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post #1176 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The M&C 2008 and 2011 Blu-ray versions are not "identical"!

So the discs are different. Are the soundtracks identical?

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post #1177 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

So the discs are different. Are the soundtracks identical?



I don't have any idea if the soundtracks are idetical. No one else does either. Like I said, most people who post on this thread do not own either version of the M&C blu-ray!

When you come right down to it, no one knows what exactly is wrong with the English blu-ray audio track either.
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post #1178 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hey, J. I noticed that the digibook packing is new. What else has been changed? I seriously doubt the a/v streams are any different from the older BD version.


Subtitles are different in the two BD versions.

Perhaps there is only an English sound track on the 2011 BD version.

Is the English audio track the same of both BD versions? I don't have any idea!


http://www.amazon.com/Master-Command...=5336055023-20
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post #1179 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 10:15 PM
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Hmmm, okay. It would be interesting to compare the two BD's against the Region 1 dvd of M&C.

For the record, I own the older Blu-ray but neither the new one or the dvd.

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post #1180 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 10:25 PM
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The scene in Battle: LA where the control station rips out of the ground is freaking incredible!
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post #1181 of 19036 Old 09-27-2011, 10:37 PM
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Oh yeah. B:LA is loaded with ULF.

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post #1182 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 12:14 AM
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I just finished watching "Blitz". The movie was only OK but it had some good bass scenes in it.

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post #1183 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hmmm, okay. It would be interesting to compare the two BD's against the Region 1 dvd of M&C.

For the record, I own the older Blu-ray but neither the new one or the dvd.



Can you (or anyone else for that matter) do a waterfall of the M&C Blu-ray opening salvo scene? What is needed is a waterfall of the LFE channel by itself with no bass redirection from any other channels. I am curious on what bass exists on the LFE channel of each blu-ray.

In my old files I have the LFE channel waterfall of the opening salvo scene of the DVD as well as a TrueRTA peak hold chart of the dedicated LFE channel of that scene.
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post #1184 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 09:32 AM
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Im thinkin Super 8 is going to be the new war of the worlds with the train crash scene for demo purposes.

Green Lantern might be pretty good as well with the jet dogfight but it has nothin on Super 8.
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post #1185 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 09:44 AM
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Definitely anticipating the new Transformers movie on Friday! I expect we'll be adding another title to the 5-star list

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post #1186 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Can you (or anyone else for that matter) do a waterfall of the M&C Blu-ray opening salvo scene? What is needed is a waterfall of the LFE channel by itself with no bass redirection from any other channels. I am curious on what bass exists on the LFE channel of each blu-ray.

I would be more interested in what is coming out of the SW jack in total on each disc with all of the bass from other channels redirected. I redirect all low bass to my subwoofers, so I don't really care whether most of the bass is actualy in the main channels or not. This is probably closer to how most users who are posting here and concerned with a loss of <30hz content would have their bass reproduced as well. It would be great to see both LFE only and with redirected bass for each version actually though.

If anyone is willing to analyze the discs I have the DVD and the older version Blu-ray. If we could talk someone into loaning out the 2011 version and we can find someone willing to do the analysis we could stop speculating. It doesn't cost much to ship a disc cross country. Any takers?
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post #1187 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I would be more interested in what is coming out of the SW jack in total on each disc with all of the bass from other channels redirected. I redirect all low bass to my subwoofers, so I don't really care whether most of the bass is actualy in the main channels or not. This is probably closer to how most users who are posting here and concerned with a loss of <30hz content would have their bass reproduced as well. It would be great to see both LFE only and with redirected bass for each version actually though.

If anyone is willing to analyze the discs I have the DVD and the older version Blu-ray. If we could talk someone into loaning out the 2011 version and we can find someone willing to do the analysis we could stop speculating. It doesn't cost much to ship a disc cross country. Any takers?


Yup. I feel the same way and this is exactly how I did all my bass charts back when I was doing them for dvd. Although it would be interesting to isolate each channel to see the distribution of the bass. In this particular case, that may not be needed as we just want to know for sure if there is infra content at all on the disc anymore.

Right now I don't have the gear for these kinds of captures but hope to get back in the game soon enough. I would be willing to loan or purchase all the discs for anyone willing to do the actual measurements. If anyone is up for that, hit me up.

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post #1188 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

If anyone is willing to analyze the discs I have the DVD and the older version Blu-ray. If we could talk someone into loaning out the 2011 version and we can find someone willing to do the analysis we could stop speculating. It doesn't cost much to ship a disc cross country. Any takers?

I would gladly do it if I felt there was any merit to the exercise.

Nearly every soundtrack ever done has LFE in the main channels to stay backward compatible with matrix systems (stereo to quasi-surround, like PLII and NEO:6, which don't have an LFE channel and otherwise would have no low end effects to send to a SW) as well as 2.1 listeners.

Bosso
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post #1189 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I would gladly do it if I felt there was any merit to the exercise.

Nearly every soundtrack ever done has LFE in the main channels to stay backward compatible with matrix systems (stereo to quasi-surround, like PLII and NEO:6, which don't have an LFE channel and otherwise would have no low end effects to send to a SW) as well as 2.1 listeners.

Bosso

I'll send you all three discs if you're down for some measurements, B. I'm a sucker for all your work and would love to see the results.

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post #1190 of 19036 Old 09-28-2011, 02:28 PM
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i'll send you all three discs if you're down for some measurements, b. I'm a sucker for all your work and would love to see the results.

+1

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post #1191 of 19036 Old 09-29-2011, 06:26 PM
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Didn't we have a thread that proved M&C was filtered at 25hz on the BD? The DVD has information down to the single digits.

I thought this was already known? Whats with the questions?

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post #1192 of 19036 Old 09-29-2011, 06:54 PM
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The bass in transformers 3 on blu ray is just awesome.
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post #1193 of 19036 Old 09-29-2011, 08:52 PM
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Camp Hell has some room shattering bass! :-D
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post #1194 of 19036 Old 09-29-2011, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Nearly every soundtrack ever done has LFE in the main channels to stay backward compatible with matrix systems (stereo to quasi-surround, like PLII and NEO:6, which don't have an LFE channel and otherwise would have no low end effects to send to a SW) as well as 2.1 listeners.

Bosso

Bosso.. not quite correct...

If you are talking about 5.1 tracks, that isn't the case.... it is rare that any sound sent to the LFE channel also goes to the mains, and we don't take into consideration the down mix.

In regards to stereo Lt/Rt mixes, the LFE is folded into the L/C/R/S inputs of the matrix encoder.. how, and how much goes there, is different from mixer to mixer.

The biggest caveat, however, is that the stereo mix is mostly a thing of the past... since DVD and BR players (and sat, cable, etc.) can downmix on the fly, it is preferential to actually have the box do it for a variety of reasons, the best of which is that we don't have to be as concerned with level control for the home environment (as opposed to cinema optical tracks.)
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post #1195 of 19036 Old 09-29-2011, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tooley View Post

The bass in transformers 3 on blu ray is just awesome.

TRULY! Reference if there ever was one and relentless in duration. Hope everyone brought their heatsinks along for the ride.
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post #1196 of 19036 Old 09-29-2011, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Bosso.. not quite correct...

If you are talking about 5.1 tracks, that isn't the case.... it is rare that any sound sent to the LFE channel also goes to the mains, and we don't take into consideration the down mix.


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post #1197 of 19036 Old 09-30-2011, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Bosso.. not quite correct...

If you are talking about 5.1 tracks, that isn't the case.... it is rare that any sound sent to the LFE channel also goes to the mains, and we don't take into consideration the down mix.

In regards to stereo Lt/Rt mixes, the LFE is folded into the L/C/R/S inputs of the matrix encoder.. how, and how much goes there, is different from mixer to mixer.

The biggest caveat, however, is that the stereo mix is mostly a thing of the past... since DVD and BR players (and sat, cable, etc.) can downmix on the fly, it is preferential to actually have the box do it for a variety of reasons, the best of which is that we don't have to be as concerned with level control for the home environment (as opposed to cinema optical tracks.)


Hmmm....

Every now and then I still find some very LF content on LCRS channels....but then again, many may not have the ability to monitor the way you do with the dual BagEnd 18's on each L/C/R channel....

Interesting to note that the Tron:Legacy Dolby 2.0 track sounds much cleaner than it's 7.1 DTHD counterpart.....maybe the 2.0 track wasn't modified prior to BluRay release, and is more consistent with what people heard in the theaters?

The DVD version of T:L defaults to Dolby 2.0, stating that it will most likely be played back on TV speakers. It does contain a much lower level of LFE. The 5.1 track on the DVD appears to have some clipping (to my ears). I have to run Audacity on individual channels to make sure....whenever I get the time...

Can't wait to debut TF3 at the house. There are no real well equipped theaters in my area for LFE support, or good audio support overall, for that matter.....the main theater chain in town apparently skimps some on sound, but the 4k projection systems are very nice.....now to just fix the screen hot-spotting in the 3D auditoriums....

I do miss living in a larger city as far as cinema is concerned; where theaters were one-upping eachother on sonic as well as visual presentation.....I can clearly remember one theater that during the Saving Private Ryan tank scene, the entire seating riser moved, and another stadium seating theater in which Gambit's playing card throwing attack in X-Men Origins:Wolverine hit so hard it nearly took my breath away....

JSS
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post #1198 of 19036 Old 09-30-2011, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Hmmm....

Every now and then I still find some very LF content on LCRS channels....but then again, many may not have the ability to monitor the way you do with the dual BagEnd 18's on each L/C/R channel....

Interesting to note that the Tron:Legacy Dolby 2.0 track sounds much cleaner than it's 7.1 DTHD counterpart.....maybe the 2.0 track wasn't modified prior to BluRay release, and is more consistent with what people heard in the theaters?

The DVD version of T:L defaults to Dolby 2.0, stating that it will most likely be played back on TV speakers. It does contain a much lower level of LFE. The 5.1 track on the DVD appears to have some clipping (to my ears). I have to run Audacity on individual channels to make sure....whenever I get the time...

Can't wait to debut TF3 at the house. There are no real well equipped theaters in my area for LFE support, or good audio support overall, for that matter.....the main theater chain in town apparently skimps some on sound, but the 4k projection systems are very nice.....now to just fix the screen hot-spotting in the 3D auditoriums....

I do miss living in a larger city as far as cinema is concerned; where theaters were one-upping eachother on sonic as well as visual presentation.....I can clearly remember one theater that during the Saving Private Ryan tank scene, the entire seating riser moved, and another stadium seating theater in which Gambit's playing card throwing attack in X-Men Origins:Wolverine hit so hard it nearly took my breath away....

JSS

Sounds amazing. I live in Dallas, and all these theaters seem lame (Even the Cinemark XD ("Extreme Digital Cinema") where I saw Transformers 3). My best theater experience was a re-done theater in New Orleans (AMC Elmwood Palace 20)
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post #1199 of 19036 Old 09-30-2011, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Bosso.. not quite correct...

If you are talking about 5.1 tracks, that isn't the case.... it is rare that any sound sent to the LFE channel also goes to the mains, and we don't take into consideration the down mix.

In regards to stereo Lt/Rt mixes, the LFE is folded into the L/C/R/S inputs of the matrix encoder.. how, and how much goes there, is different from mixer to mixer.

The biggest caveat, however, is that the stereo mix is mostly a thing of the past... since DVD and BR players (and sat, cable, etc.) can downmix on the fly, it is preferential to actually have the box do it for a variety of reasons, the best of which is that we don't have to be as concerned with level control for the home environment (as opposed to cinema optical tracks.)

I appreciate this heads up as it flies in the face of everything I've read from Dolby on the subject, although, recently I did read about the "folding" of the LFE, but it leaves one nagging Q:

Why are there discs with more LF content in the front channels than in the LFE channel?

Bosso
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post #1200 of 19036 Old 09-30-2011, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Breaking news:

Earthquake hits USA, centered in Charlotte, NC.

Please take your dispute with bossobass to PMs.

Back on topic, I watched the Transformers 3 BR on Wednesday, and the LFE is legit. Plus, the movie is OK. Supermodel hotness makes up for a lot of shortcomings. Without a doubt 5 stars for bass. I'd like to see the graphs on this, because I think it rivals B:LA.

Also, Hanna has solid LFE and is a well-made movie to boot. It's reminded me of the Bourne movies starring a 14 year old girl, and, surprisingly, wasn't terrible. Wasn't great, either, tho. It has a weird, synth soundtrack that has a distinctly Euro feel to it. The bass in some action sequences is ridiculous, although never super low. It gets 4 stars from me.
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