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post #1261 of 19195 Old 10-02-2011, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dicey View Post

Unfortunately, most mixes (both movie and music) are made to accommodate the lowest quality consumer equipment, which would be the iPod for music and the HTIB for movies. This is done by heavy use of both compression & limiting and sometimes by just boosting the mix into nasty hard clipping. The end result is taking what started out as an amazing and powerful theatrical mix or stereo music mix (@30-40db RMS DR for most action movie scenes in all channels and @15-30db for most rock/pop/hip-hop songs) and smashing that down to 1/4 or less of what it started out as.

This is one of the movie and music industries dirty secrets which has compromised &/or ruined 99.9% of our favorite CDs and DVD/BDs. Thank God for that .01%!

I say laziness because this could all be solved by just including both the dynamically uncompressed theatrical mix as a selectable option along with the standard, dynamically compressed "home-theater" mix as the default. And I say cheapness because the same should go for CDs, all CD albums should come with 2 discs, one having the dynamically uncompressed version of the album for people with high quality stereo/HT systems, the other having a dynamically compressed version for iPod, boombox, car, etc.

Dare to dream......

I don't think there is much truth to your statement in regards to movies. Even the compressed Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes we've been getting on DVD for years has the full dynamic range of the mix made for theatres. The reason for the 20-30Hz high-pass filter has nothing to do with accommodating Home Theater In a Box (HTIB)... FilmMixer explained it a few posts up... even theatres rarely can produce sound at flat levels below 20Hz, so it's done to prevent unwanted "stuff" hanging around down that low. It may not even be a filter at all, but just the choices made in the mixing process... so that content was simply just never there. In my opinion though, I think they should go ahead and include some "easter egg" ULF for the enthusiasts like us, and certainly nobody else will mind. A Walmart HTIB will filter it out anyway. And if filtering must be applied to clean away unintended ULF, at least make the high-pass at 15Hz or so. Even my fairly inexpensive HSU VTF3-MK3 can hit a very solid 16Hz at near-reference level, so I miss it when a movie only digs down to 30Hz.

Now... this is straying pretty far off-topic, but the "loudness war" is unfortunately alive and well in the music industry and ruining a lot of otherwise great albums, and I really like your idea of an album on CD having two versions... the "loud" one for your car and mobile player, and the "dynamic" one for your home system. At the price we pay for a new album on CD, the extra disc could definitely be included. That is another thing the movie industry is doing right: 3D Blu-ray, 2D Blu-ray, DVD, and Digital Copy all in one package for only a couple of bucks more than the single-disc version. Music industry should take note... may be the "dynamic" version of the album could even be lossless multi-channel on a Blu-ray disc.

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post #1262 of 19195 Old 10-02-2011, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dicey View Post

Zero.

Why?! One word (uh...acronym) : HTIB. And laziness/cheapness.

Unfortunately, most mixes (both movie and music) are made to accommodate the lowest quality consumer equipment, which would be the iPod for music and the HTIB for movies. This is done by heavy use of both compression & limiting and sometimes by just boosting the mix into nasty hard clipping. The thinking for doing this (if you can call it that) goes that anything over a few dBs will cause heavy distortion from a iPod or HTIB, so to eliminate the possibility of any distortion, almost all of the soundtrack's original dynamic range is permanently removed! The end result is taking what started out as an amazing and powerful theatrical mix or stereo music mix (@30-40dB RMS DR for most action movie scenes in all channels and @15-30dB for most rock/pop/hip-hop songs) and smashing that down to 1/4 (or less!) of what it started out as.

This is one of the movie and music industries dirty secrets which has compromised &/or ruined 99.9% of our favorite CDs and DVD/BDs. Thank God for that last .01%!

I say laziness because this could all be solved by just including both the dynamically uncompressed theatrical mix as a selectable option along with the standard, dynamically compressed "home-theater" mix as the default. And I say cheapness because the same should go for CDs, all CD albums should come with 2 discs, one having the dynamically uncompressed version of the album for people with high quality stereo/HT systems, the other having a dynamically compressed version for iPod, boombox, car, etc.

Dare to dream......

I disagree 100%... there is so much misinformation in this post, I don't know where to begin...

What is your source or experience to make such claims?
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post #1263 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 12:10 AM
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I just watched "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen".... WOW! I don't know how it only ranked a 4 on the list? This movie was hitting so hard that my IPad rotated it's screen three times during the movie, sitting on my couch 12 feet away from my subs. I can't wait to see the new version.....

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post #1264 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I disagree 100%... there is so much misinformation in this post, I don't know where to begin...

What is your source or experience to make such claims?

Well-

Skip to 2:10
http://vimeo.com/29745810

I love dynamics. And this guy feels the need to reduce it so peole don't constantly change the volume.

Who are these guys worried about? Little sarah jumping out of her seat?

And please explain to me the 20Ibs of information in a 10Ibs bag comment. Are these tracks not uncompressed? Are they not from a "studio master"?


By tinkering with it like that should it still be called "lossless uncompressed strait from the studio master" I don't think so.

I was excited to watch that video about the mix of transformers3 but by the time he started talking about dynamics i was really botherd.

Tell me im over analyzing this.

home theater addict
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post #1265 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I disagree 100%... there is so much misinformation in this post, I don't know where to begin...

What is your source or experience to make such claims?

I can't name names, but I was told about the 'iPod mix' (actually, he called it the Discman mix, I just updated it) by a senior executive at Warner Bros Music. And he said the same held true for home-theater mixes as well.

I may not be an insider, but I have a few friends who are, and I have heard many uncompressed theatrical mixes of films such as Avatar, TDK, Iron Man, 300 and many others (they were on encrypted screener-type BD50s with high-res PCM soundtracks) that were played back on a SOTA home-theater system (Magico speakers, mbl mono amps, custom 15" subs, etc) and the difference between them and the consumer versions was night and day in both dynamic range and audible resolution. Even the dialog was significantly more powerful. On the consumer BD 0f 300, when Gerard Butler yells "This is Sparta!", it is at roughly the same volume as the rest of his dialog, but on the theatrical-mix BD, it got at least 10dB louder than his speaking voice level and actually sounded like he was really yelling right to my face! It was awesome! And don't get me started on the differences in bass....

Now don't get me wrong, there are a precious few BDs and DVDs that actually have true high dynamic range soundtracks and sound very close to/identical to the theatrical versions (of which, most of them have been discussed on this thread).

My point is, that all of our favorite movies should sound every bit as good as their theatrical masters do. Why they so rarely do is a question that I'm afraid has no good answer.

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post #1266 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post


Skip to 2:10 http://vimeo.com/29745810

I love dynamics. And this guy feels the need to reduce it so peole don't constantly change the volume.

Who are these guys worried about? Little sarah jumping out of her seat?

And please explain to me the 20Ibs of information in a 10Ibs bag comment. Are these tracks not uncompressed? Are they not from a "studio master"?

By tinkering with it like that should it still be called "lossless uncompressed strait from the studio master" I don't think so.

I was excited to watch that video about the mix of transformers3 but by the time he started talking about dynamics i was really botherd.

Tell me im over analyzing this.

You're not. The differences between the theatrical mixes and the home-theater mixes are often huge.

You are all WEIRDOS! - Sam the Eagle
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post #1267 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 04:07 AM
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FilmMixer,

Would you be able to find out if the home DTHD track on Transfromers 3 was 'toned down', or if any alteration was made for the DTHD and/or DD 5.1 or 2.0 mixes?

I could understand a DD5.1 or DD2.0 mix being 'toned down' due to playback likely occurring through TV speakers, but not the DTHD mix....

The dynamics in the DTHD 7.1 mix for TF3 seemed pretty snappy to me, and on par with the presentation I remember in-theater.....in fact, nearly identical, save for my reduction in overall spl in-home.

I will have to say that there are some BluRays that seem to lack the impact I experienced in-theater, notably X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Gambit throwing the cards at Hugh Jackman was downright concussive in-theater, not so much at home.......not sure if that was intentional or not, though....many variables in play.


JSS


BTW - "And we will see about the Oscars.. this is my first year to have a say."

Congratulations on the above...
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post #1268 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What do you mean by "not much in the way of lf"?

Plenty of LFE down to 20 Hz.

For the main channels there is plenty of lf content down to 20 Hz along with some higher level infra down to 10 Hz at times.

Min channels down to 20hz...my 2 subs have excellent output down to 10...not sure what happened as far as the sub goes...did watch part 3 and part 4 and the bass was there but no where near the likes of the Pacific...still have the other parts to watch.

Watched transformers 3 last night and it was a bass feast as far as output and original feel goes...similar to the ironhide flip in the other Trans...very well done lf.
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post #1269 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Well-

Skip to 2:10
http://vimeo.com/29745810

I love dynamics. And this guy feels the need to reduce it so peole don't constantly change the volume.

Who are these guys worried about? Little sarah jumping out of her seat?

And please explain to me the 20Ibs of information in a 10Ibs bag comment. Are these tracks not uncompressed? Are they not from a "studio master"?


By tinkering with it like that should it still be called "lossless uncompressed strait from the studio master" I don't think so.

I was excited to watch that video about the mix of transformers3 but by the time he started talking about dynamics i was really botherd.

Tell me im over analyzing this.

Thanks for the link. I just saw the interview.

Yes, it does seem like Greg is saying that a different mix was created for the home theater and that this mix has some dynamic compression as compared to the theater release.
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post #1270 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

Min channels down to 20hz...my 2 subs have excellent output down to 10...not sure what happened as far as the sub goes...did watch part 3 and part 4 and the bass was there but no where near the likes of the Pacific...still have the other parts to watch.

Watched transformers 3 last night and it was a bass feast as far as output and original feel goes...similar to the ironhide flip in the other Trans...very well done lf.



Band of Brothers was discussed a bit here. I don't have a copy of The Pacific yet, so I can not make any comparison.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21025709




The Ironhide flip scene from T1 does not go much below 30 Hz.


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post #1271 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

I may not be an insider, but I have a few friends who are, and I have heard many uncompressed theatrical mixes of films such as Avatar, TDK, Iron Man, 300 and many others (they were on encrypted screener-type BD50s with high-res PCM soundtracks)

...

My point is, that all of our favorite movies should sound every bit as good as their theatrical masters do. Why they so rarely do is a question that I'm afraid has no good answer.

Indeed, the bluray ought to have the full uncompressed theater mix. Not some lesser version...
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post #1272 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by K5/SS View Post

I just watched "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen".... WOW! I don't know how it only ranked a 4 on the list? This movie was hitting so hard that my IPad rotated it's screen three times during the movie, sitting on my couch 12 feet away from my subs. I can't wait to see the new version.....

I agree. I have a very modest setup but I couldn't believe how hard it hit throughout the movie. I'm jacked fyi see and hear the new one as well..
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post #1273 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by markmathers View Post


I agree. I have a very modest setup but I couldn't believe how hard it hit throughout the movie. I'm jacked fyi see and hear the new one as well..

*to
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post #1274 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


JPC has relished posting SL graphs of some scenes from those movies of only the .1 channel, then only the FL/FR channels when his methods show none of the ULF is in the .1 channel and all of it is in the FL/FR channels. His inference... well, honestly, I don't really know what his inference is.



Inference to what?

You guys prefer to see the bass (meaning infra) from all channels mixed together (meaning mono) because of "reason X, Y, and Z" (meaning that is what "I" do).

I prefer to look at the sound mix by individual channel. That way I get a good feel what the sound mixer did to end up with the final multi channel sound. No one else cares, so I only post a few of the spectrograms with the LFE channel and L, C, R channels isolated. I also isolate all channels for a look see, but I never post them here.
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I meant to say..."Main" channels down to 20 and even down to 10...I know my mains cannot do that.

Yea, I know the iron flip doesn't go real low but its the way it sounds out of the sub..very unique and Trans 3 has several effects similar to that flip.
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post #1276 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Band of Brothers was discussed a bit here. I don't have a copy of The Pacific yet, so I can not make any comparison.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21025709

I know that scene and yes it had some good bass tho short...You obviously nned to see the pacific...the bass is intense and at times non stop...that is what I thought I would get from the band of bros, tho the tank scene was good on disc 2.
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post #1277 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 09:28 AM
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I think far too much is being made of what we are reading about T3...dynamic compression, filtering under 20hz, blah, blah, blah. Forget about that crap and give it a watch and a listen and just enjoy. It's a fun ride despite the shortcomings that have been written about it. While <20hz is nice to have in a movie, it doesn't mean that it isn't fun and powerful without it.
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post #1278 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

I can't name names, but I was told about the 'iPod mix' (actually, he called it the Discman mix, I just updated it) by a senior executive at Warner Bros Music. And he said the same held true for home-theater mixes as well.

I'm not going to argue about the music industries practices... it's an entirely different medium, with absolutely no standard, where the song is the commerce... you have to make the product stand out, for better or worse, and I'm not going to get into the debate about that, because it's no secret what most popular music sounds like and how it is produced.

But a senior executive from WBMG has no idea what the standard operating practices are for the home theater division..

Quote:
I may not be an insider, but I have a few friends who are, and I have heard many uncompressed theatrical mixes of films such as Avatar, TDK, Iron Man, 300 and many others (they were on encrypted screener-type BD50s with high-res PCM soundtracks) that were played back on a SOTA home-theater system (Magico speakers, mbl amps, custom 15" subs, etc) and the difference between them and the consumer versions was night and day in both dynamic range and audible resolution. Even the dialog was significantly more powerful. On the consumer BD 0f 300, when Gerard Butler yells "This is Sparta!", it is at roughly the same volume as the rest of his dialog, but on the theatrical-mix BD, it got at least 10dB louder than his speaking voice level and actually sounded like he was really yelling right to my face! It was awesome! And don't get me started on the differences in bass....

Now don't get me wrong, there are a precious few BDs and DVDs that actually have true high dynamic range soundtracks and sound very close to/identical to the theatrical versions (of which, most of them have been discussed on this thread).

My point is, that all of our favorite movies should sound every bit as good as their theatrical masters do. Why they so rarely do is a question that I'm afraid has no good answer.

This shouldn't get into a lengthy debate.... if you have even been to a near field mix, you would understand what does and doesn't happen.

But there is a more fundamental point, and a "good" answer to your comment..

As good as everyone systems are/can be, they aren't cinemas...

The fact that the SPL standard is different, as is the eq curve, as are other things... there are good reasons why a film should have a presentation that it tailored for an environment that isn't a cinema....

When you lower the SPL standard, from 85 to 80 or 75, you will sometimes lose dialog and low level ambiences...

You (mistakenly) assume that reducing the dynamic range comes from the use of compressors, where it is usually a simple raising up of what will fall into the noise floor...

While there is a true debate to be had about the ULF content,or lack thereof, in TF3, anyone who claims it is lacking, or compromised, in dynamic range needs to have their heads examined.

BTW.. I've mixed over 130 films... of those, 115+ were presented on home video with the original theatrical print master.. on the ones that weren't, I supervised all but 2 of them.

It's not a dirty little secret, we are all involved (for the most part) and it isn't the travesty or debacle you are making it out to be....

You made the assertion that we are mixing for the lowest common denominator... that is not true at all... when we do a near filed mix, or re-master, we use setups that are better than 99% of home theaters in a controlled environment... we do, however, monitor at the home theater standard..

Quote:
The end result is taking what started out as an amazing and powerful theatrical master or stereo music master (@30-40dB RMS DR for most action movie scenes in all channels and @15-30dB for most rock/pop/hip-hop songs) and smashing that down to 1/4 (or less!) of what it started out as

That's just not true, once again... usually, on the louder films, you will raise up low level ambiences and dialog (and the Greg Russell video, if you pay attention and listen to what he says, confirms this) by 1 to 3 db, and lower loud sections by as much (or little, IMO)... that isn't a 75% reduction in dynamic range... and if you lower things, it usually only because your are out of bits/clipping.

And you once again need to stop putting music and films in the same category.. the production practices and mastering processes are two vastly different creatures...

I can't change the fact that home theater has a different SPL reference, and neither can you.. add to that fact that the room is almost (greater than 99.9% of the time) going to be a large percentage smaller than even the smallest cinema, and there is no x-curve, etc... the reasons why most studios spend the money and resources to make an optimized mix for the consumer become fairly obvious.

You accuse the studios of laziness and cheapness.. that certainly isn't the case, or all they would do would be to put the theatrical mix on all releases... a near field/HT mix isn't cheap by any means. (and if you're suggesting they put both versions on the BR, I think that would be a great waste of space and bandwidth, IMO.)

I know my post won't get very far with most.... there are a lot of AVS'ers who will point out that they spent a ton of money on their rooms and gear, and want what we playback on the dub stage...

If the standards, tunings and spaces were the same, I'd agree... but they are not.

And while the point of this thread is to celebrate fantastic low end, and sometimes decry the lack of it, there is much to be celebrated in what is available to consumers in this day and age, and I think your post, while raising some good points (if they were in fact what is going on, and IMO and experience it is not), dismisses the 99% of things we get right as a creative audio community in our goals of helping directors tell their stories through sound.
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post #1279 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

FilmMixer,

Would you be able to find out if the home DTHD track on Transfromers 3 was 'toned down', or if any alteration was made for the DTHD and/or DD 5.1 or 2.0 mixes?

I could understand a DD5.1 or DD2.0 mix being 'toned down' due to playback likely occurring through TV speakers, but not the DTHD mix....

The dynamics in the DTHD 7.1 mix for TF3 seemed pretty snappy to me, and on par with the presentation I remember in-theater.....in fact, nearly identical, save for my reduction in overall spl in-home.

JSS

BTW - "And we will see about the Oscars.. this is my first year to have a say."

Congratulations on the above...

Thanks for the congrats...

JSS.. I am sure you've seen the video by Greg about the HT 7.1 for TF3.. so obviously the answer is yes.

The bold part reaffirms my feelings in my lengthy post response to dicey...

I too think this is a fantastic presentation of one of the years best...

Tomorrow I get to hear my favorite track of the year so far (neck in neck with TF3 for me...) "Fast Five.."

It's a good time to be a film lover, and a home theater addict.
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post #1280 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 10:48 AM
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Machete - DVD, Dolby Digital

Machete don't text. Machete gets 4.5 stars from me, though it's a bit borderline due to quantity. Extension is too nice to just give it 4 stars though IMO.









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post #1281 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 11:49 AM
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FilmMixer, thank you so much for your participation! Fascinating reading!

The "Twinseltown" Theater
Construction Thread
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post #1282 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


Thanks for the congrats...

JSS.. I am sure you've seen the video by Greg about the HT 7.1 for TF3.. so obviously the answer is yes.

The bold part reaffirms my feelings in my lengthy post response to dicey...

I too think this is a fantastic presentation of one of the years best...

Tomorrow I get to hear my favorite track of the year so far (neck in neck with TF3 for me...) "Fast Five.."

It's a good time to be a film lover, and a home theater addict.

FM,

How is the SPL standard different?

Isn't the standard 105dB peaks for L/C/R/S, and 115dB peaks for LFE for both home and theater?

I calibrate to a 75dB level with a -30dBFS signal for lcrs, and 85dB for LFE.......

JSS
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post #1283 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

FM,

How is the SPL standard different?

Isn't the standard 105dB peaks for L/C/R/S, and 115dB peaks for LFE for both home and theater?

I calibrate to a 75dB level with a -30dBFS signal for lcrs, and 85dB for LFE.......

JSS


That theoretical peak playback level only applies to people who listen to the system with the master volume set to the calibrated "reference level" position along with having source material that does not use Dialnorm (AKA Dialnorm value of -31 = no volume reduction).

That master volume reference level setting is hardly ever used in a home setting!
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post #1284 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 02:14 PM
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As good as everyone systems are/can be, they aren't cinemas...

Now how many times have I said that on this forum. Thanks FilmMixer
+1

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post #1285 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 02:16 PM
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in my experience, i think that people who can't listen to a movie at the same level (0dB) used in good cinemas is most probably because their room needs sound treatment.

a good sign for insufficiently treated rooms is shrieking highs and muddled mids, along with a wince now and then and good headaches.
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post #1286 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Now how many times have I said that on this forum. Thanks FilmMixer
+1

I believe he is saying with the right mix they are as good or better.
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post #1287 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 03:28 PM
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FilmMixer,

First, I would like to state I greatly appreciate all of the time and effort you have put into this and many other threads. I totally respect your experience and expertise in the field of sound mixing. But I'm afraid I disagree with you on a few things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

But there is a more fundamental point, and a "good" answer to your comment..

As good as everyone systems are/can be, they aren't cinemas...

I agree that most peoples systems are not and never will be capable of reproducing a high dynamic range soundtrack in all of its glory. And for them, the current home-theater mixes are perfectly adequate. But this thread is primarily populated by those few movie lovers that one day hope to have systems that can handle high-SPL soundtracks with ease (and some of us enthusiasts actually do). For those few, only the best will do, and right now we are rarely getting it.

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The fact that the SPL standard is different, as is the eq curve

I'm not sure what you mean by EQ curve. Please elaborate.

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When you lower the SPL standard, from 85 to 80 or 75, you will sometimes lose dialog and low level ambiences...

You (mistakenly) assume that reducing the dynamic range comes from the use of compressors, where it is usually a simple raising up of what will fall into the noise floor...

This is true, but doing this results in a 'low listening level mix' aka 'near-field mix'. This is fine for Mr. Joe Consumer but not for the guy dropping serious cash who wants to have a home cinema experience that's as good or better then at the megaplex downtown (which unfortunately, isn't that hard to achieve ).

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While there is a true debate to be had about the ULF content,or lack thereof, in TF3, anyone who claims it is lacking, or compromised, in dynamic range needs to have their heads examined.

Now I haven't heard TF3 yet but judging by the first two, its mid-bass through high-frequency dynamics are probably fine, but as has already been shown, its low-bass dynamics are sorely lacking, as is the case with the vast majority of blockbuster home-theater mixes. This cannot be denied.

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BTW.. I've mixed over 130 films... of those, 115+ were presented on home video with the original theatrical print master.. on the ones that weren't, I supervised all but 2 of them.

I believe you, but the majority of your work has been on mainly dialog-heavy types of films, which unfortunately won't benefit that much from being sourced from the theatrical master. Speaking of 'sourced', I thought your mix on Source Code was really good, very appropriate for the material. Good movie, too.

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You made the assertion that we are mixing for the lowest common denominator... that is not true at all... when we do a near filed mix, or re-master, we use setups that are better than 99% of home theaters in a controlled environment... we do, however, monitor at the home theater standard..

If that's the case, then why are so many of our favorite action movie soundtracks so weak in overall dynamic range? Especially the ones that I've compared to the original theatrical masters? I'm not criticizing you personally, I just would really like to know. Do you think it might be possible that there is some additional mixing/altering of the sound mix after you turn it over? Could it be possible that the authoring facilities might be adding additional compression to the mixes. I'm not trying to create a conspiracy theory or anything, just thinking out loud.

Quote:


I can't change the fact that home theater has a different SPL reference, and neither can you.. add to that fact that the room is almost (greater than 99.9% of the time) going to be a large percentage smaller than even the smallest cinema, and there is no x-curve, etc... the reasons why most studios spend the money and resources to make an optimized mix for the consumer become fairly obvious.

Even with the X-curve uncompensated for, the raw theatrical mixes that I've heard sound significantly better than the home-theater mixes, with a few nice exceptions where the two were very close.

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You accuse the studios of laziness and cheapness.. that certainly isn't the case, or all they would do would be to put the theatrical mix on all releases... a near field/HT mix isn't cheap by any means. (and if you're suggesting they put both versions on the BR, I think that would be a great waste of space and bandwidth, IMO.)

I do agree with you about creating the HT mix for the average consumer, but I completely disagree with you that it would be a waste of space to put both versions on the disc. Doing this would allow the consumer to decide which one they prefer. And the HT mix could be lossy because who really cares if the weaker sounding mix is data compressed or not.

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I know my post won't get very far with most.... there are a lot of AVS'ers who will point out that they spent a ton of money on their rooms and gear, and want what we playback on the dub stage...

If the standards, tunings and spaces were the same, I'd agree... but they are not.

I know, but this is why Blu-ray was invented. To allow guys like us to get the best possible movie experience at home. Why even bother offering lossless codecs if all the studios are willing to put on them is already compromised.

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And while the point of this thread is to celebrate fantastic low end, and sometimes decry the lack of it, there is much to be celebrated in what is available to consumers in this day and age, and I think your post, while raising some good points (if they were in fact what is going on, and IMO and experience it is not), dismisses the 99% of things we get right as a creative audio community in our goals of helping directors tell their stories through sound.

And for this, I thank you. But in the end, us audio geeks want everything to sound as good as it possibly can, and right now, that isn't happening nearly enough.

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post #1288 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gellidius View Post

in my experience, i think that people who can't listen to a movie at the same level (0dB) used in good cinemas is most probably because their room needs sound treatment.

a good sign for insufficiently treated rooms is shrieking highs and muddled mids, along with a wince now and then and good headaches.

I see this trotted out from time to time. We'll have to agree to disagree. For some, this may be true. The rest of us probably like our hearing and would prefer to protect it so we can continue to enjoy our audio hobbies for years to come. As it is, I already have a bit of tinnitus, likely due to practicing the "if it's too loud, you're too old" approach in my younger days...can you say Def Leppard's full "In the Round" touring rig built for 20k plus seat arenas in a tiny little 12,400 seat venue?

-Brent
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post #1289 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

I see this trotted out from time to time. We'll have to agree to disagree. For some, this may be true. The rest of us probably like our hearing and would prefer to protect it so we can continue to enjoy our audio hobbies for years to come. As it is, I already have a bit of tinnitus, likely due to practicing the "if it's too loud, you're too old" approach in my younger days...can you say Def Leppard's full "In the Round" touring rig built for 20k plus seat arenas in a tiny little 12,400 seat venue?

-Brent

then, you don't go to cinema, where the SPL is about the same as in a HT room.
a few seconds or minutes of high SPL will not do anything bad to our hearing; what actually does something bad is high SPL continuously for some hour or more, not minutes; it's a combination of SPL/time. this is not my opinion, but scientific fact, although i can't give a link about this at the moment.
sure, an untreated room where one plays a movie at 0dB will be unbearable, but it's not the right way to do it, it just defeats the capability of having good sound.
it's like watching something on a Kuro, but outside in full sunlight.

if you were to go to a concert hall where they play Tchaikovsky's 1812, would you tell (or wish) the conductor to not play so loud, but to compress the dynamic range in order to protect your hearing? or would you tell the manager in the cinema to lower the volume when a loud scene is about to happen?
it's the same thing for a HT; if the installation is well done, then there's nothing to worry, just like at the concert or at the cinema.


the room is as important as the reproduction system, and that is why cinemas are treated in a way that they will have good sound.

what easily does damage is listening to highly compressed music at 120 dBSPL for hours and hours, but it does not happen in movies that the sound levels are extreme for hours.
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post #1290 of 19195 Old 10-03-2011, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

I'm afraid you are making a common mistake by confusing the term 'dynamic compression' (i.e. the compression of the dynamic range of a sound) with the term 'data compression' or 'lossy compression' (i.e. the compression and subsequent reduction of a digital soundtrack's data size).

Most lossy data compression codecs (DD, DD+, DTS, etc.) do an excellent job of preserving the soundtrack's original dynamic range but make sacrifices in the soundtracks perceived (audible) resolution.

The codecs aren't the problem (either lossy or lossless), it' the crappy dymanically compressed & clipped mixes that are!

I realize that it maybe counter productive to use a high pass LFE filter on certain loss less audio tracks. Regardless, I was just pointing out that they do occasionally offer the lossy version, on the same disc, so why not on the loss less track, keep more of the deep bass intact.

Ian

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