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post #13501 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:18 AM
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No he is right, home theater should be calibrated to 75db.

Best Regards
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post #13502 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

The information came from the links YOU posted.

I'm not arguing; could you help a poor old veteran see what you're posting about as I'm missing what you're thoughtfully defining.

(Navy, Cruiser/Destroyer, 71-75)

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post #13503 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:33 AM
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Using the internal test tones yes. Always read your manual as AVR's and processors vary. All my gear wanted me to run 75 dBs on the SPL meter at the LP with the test tones.

BTW, Beeman is right about HT systems. You can have different experiences at reference from two different reference capable systems. Why do you think there are so many choices and why some of us have gone crazy! In my mind the ultimate HT experience would be to have 7 Danley SH-50's with 8 REXXX 18's in an IB with the correct power for all of it. Without just spending the money the challenge for me is to get as close as possible for much less! I have two relatives that have reference capable systems which I put together but my system is still much better at reference, and cheaper!

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post #13504 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm not arguing; could you help a poor old veteran see what you're posting about as I'm missing what you're thoughtfully defining.

(Navy, Cruiser/Destroyer, 71-75)

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http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/home-theater-blog/2013/3/14/thx-reference-levelRight here.

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post #13505 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm not arguing; could you help a poor old veteran see what you're posting about as I'm missing what you're thoughtfully defining.

(Navy, Cruiser/Destroyer, 71-75)

...cool.gif
Read the info from JHaz I posted above. It explains how calibrating to 85 dB with a -20 dBFS signal results in EXACTLY the same end point as calibrating to 75 dB with a -30 dBFS signal.

Craig
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post #13506 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:38 AM
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I thought that could get too complicated for some so I never mentioned that.

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post #13507 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 11:39 AM
 
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"In the home it works slightly differently. Most pre-processor and audio video receivers have embedded pink noise test tones used for level setting that are recorded at -30dB relative to full scale. Using these tones the level of individual speakers are adjusted to 75dB as measured with a C weighted SPL meter at the listening position. Note that the low frequency effects signal is nearly always internally set to be to be 10dB louder than that for the speakers so that the end user's life is simplified and the subwoofer is calibrated to 75dB rather than the 85dB one might expect."

That's for calibration purposes, not reference level playback purposes as calibration programs adjust for this "intentional" adjustment.

(the pink noise is too loud at 85dB so for calibration purposes, it's reduced to 75dB)
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post #13508 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:05 PM
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Have you guys ever measured reference levels with REW to see where your AVR's reference is? What I mean is when I set my AVR's auto calibration I measured the volume at -20 dBs win a sine wave sweep. Guess what, it had the mains at 97-98 dBs during that sweep. So -10 dBs on my master volume equates to 107-108 dBs with a sine wave sweep. So when I run my AVR at -13 dBs it sounds perfect! 0 dBs would be close to 118 dBs! I always use REW sweeps for my set reference point.
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post #13509 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:14 PM
 
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...confused.gif

At the end of the calibration process, settings are checked and adjusted as necessary to a 80Hz crossover, all speakers set to small, using a calibrated sound meter, levels are checked and adjust according to an 85dB standard.

...confused.gif

And then REW is used to measure, graph, check and adjust subwoofer settings.

...confused.gif
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post #13510 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

"In the home it works slightly differently. Most pre-processor and audio video receivers have embedded pink noise test tones used for level setting that are recorded at -30dB relative to full scale. Using these tones the level of individual speakers are adjusted to 75dB as measured with a C weighted SPL meter at the listening position. Note that the low frequency effects signal is nearly always internally set to be to be 10dB louder than that for the speakers so that the end user's life is simplified and the subwoofer is calibrated to 75dB rather than the 85dB one might expect."

That's for calibration purposes, not reference level playback purposes as calibration programs adjust for this "intentional" adjustment.

(the pink noise is too loud at 85dB so for calibration purposes, it's reduced to 75dB)
I see. So it should be calibrated to 85?

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post #13511 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:24 PM
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Have you checked with the levels are on REW? I measure thru a digital connection and one speaker with subs. My AVR set all speakers to the same level including the subs! It does an excellent job however 0 dBs is not reference and shame on me I never read the manual to see how it sets reference as volume knob is concerned. No need to as I measure and find out.

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post #13512 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

I see. So it should be calibrated to 85?
Only if you're using a -20 dBFS signal. What receiver do you have? What signal are you using for calibration?

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post #13513 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Only if you're using a -20 dBFS signal. What receiver do you have? What signal are you using for calibration?

Craig
Onkyo 805. Not sure about the signal. I guess it would be -30db.

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post #13514 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

No he is right, home theater should be calibrated to 75db.

Best Regards
KvE

Avia is 85db IIRC, right? I know when I calibrate with Avia vs my processor tones, one is at 75 and one 85, so it depends on what you are using to calibrate your levels.
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Onkyo 805. Not sure about the signal. I guess it would be -30db.

My 885 uses -30db, so I would think your 805 is the same.

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post #13515 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Onkyo 805. Not sure about the signal. I guess it would be -30db.
Anything with Audyssey uses -30 dBFS test tones. So you calibrate to 75 with the internal test tones. However, Audyssey also uses -30 dBFS signals, so, if you run Audyssey, you don't want to use the internal test tones to re-set the levels afterwards. Audyssey's EQ filers are not engaged when the internal test tones play. The boosts and cuts of the Audyssey filters are not accounted for in the internal test tone signals even after you run Audyssey. So, if you run the test tones, reset the levels... and then reengage the Audyssey filters, the relative calibration is no longer correct.

If you want to check the levels after running Audyssey, (I can't think of any reason to do so,) you would need to use external test tones and then be sure the Audyssey filters are engaged. If you do this, you'll find that Audyssey got them correct and the levels that you reset using the internal test tones are incorrect.

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post #13516 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Anything with Audyssey uses -30 dBFS test tones. So you calibrate to 75 with the internal test tones. However, Audyssey also uses -30 dBFS signals, so, if you run Audyssey, you don't want to use the internal test tones to re-set the levels afterwards. Audyssey's EQ filers are not engaged when the internal test tones play. The boosts and cuts of the Audyssey filters are not accounted for in the internal test tone signals even after you run Audyssey. So, if you run the test tones, reset the levels... and then reengage the Audyssey filters, the relative calibration is no longer correct.

If you want to check the levels after running Audyssey, (I can't think of any reason to do so,) you would need to use external test tones and then be sure the Audyssey filters are engaged. If you do this, you'll find that Audyssey got them correct and the levels that you reset using the internal test tones are incorrect.

Craig
Thanks for the information. In other words back to 75db. So it depends on the calibration disc or the gear?

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post #13517 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought that could get too complicated for some so I never mentioned that.
Not that complicated.

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post #13518 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Thanks for the information. In other words back to 75db. So it depends on the calibration disc or the gear?
Have you run Audyssey? If so, go back to the Audyssey level settings. They're correct.

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post #13519 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Have you run Audyssey? If so, go back to the Audyssey level settings. They're correct.
I don't like Audyssey. Never accurate.

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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

I see. So it should be calibrated to 85?

Audyssey automatically adjusts it to 75dB and 75dB, 85dB or 65dB, it's all the same as according to what I read today, it's all relative.
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post #13521 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

So how does -20db come into play?



Consumer equipment uses built in -30 dBFS test tones for calibration purposes. The -20 dB FS test tones are used in commercial equipment used in a professional sound mixing stage.


I made up a test tone CD for testing purposes, and I generated the test tones at -20 dB FS (85 dB SPL playback level if master volume is set to reference level). I usually playback around -10 dB from the reference level setting on the master volume control, so my playback levels for the test tones come out to be 75 dB SPL. (85 dB SPL - 10 dB FS = 75 dB SPL).


105 dB SPL represents full reference playback level. The following applies when the master volume is set to the calibrated reference level setting. On my receiver, -22 dB represents the calibrated reference level setting on the master volume control.


The -30 dB FS test tone will give you 75 dB SPL (105 dB SPL - 30 dB FS = 75 dB SPL).

The -20 dB FS test tone will give you 85 dB SPL (105 dB SPL - 20 dB FS = 85 dB SPL).
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post #13522 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 02:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Audyssey automatically adjusts it to 75dB and 75dB, 85dB or 65dB, it's all the same as according to what I read today, it's all relative.

I'm too messed up on anti-histamines to be lucid. Somewhere in my readings today, I read how it was set to 85dB but 85dB is too loud for normal humans so it's set to 75dB for bearability but internally, it's automatically adjusted for this point so 75dB, 85dB or 65dB, Audyssey internally sets everything to a 85dB standard.

(Audyssey, doesn't give a poop what people think about 75dB or 85dB. The only ones arguing are people as machines don't care about this point)
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post #13523 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Have you checked with the levels are on REW? I measure thru a digital connection and one speaker with subs. My AVR set all speakers to the same level including the subs! It does an excellent job however 0 dBs is not reference and shame on me I never read the manual to see how it sets reference as volume knob is concerned. No need to as I measure and find out.



My Sony receiver does not set 0 dB on the master volume as "reference".

Reference is about -22 dB on my master volume control.

Then again, my receiver is getting a bit old!
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post #13524 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm too messed up on anti-histamines to be lucid.
Yes.

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post #13525 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Consumer equipment uses built in -30 dBFS test tones for calibration purposes. The -20 dB FS test tones are used in commercial equipment used in a professional sound mixing stage.


I made up a test tone CD for testing purposes, and I generated the test tones at -20 dB FS (85 dB SPL playback level if master volume is set to reference level). I usually playback around -10 dB from the reference level setting on the master volume control, so my playback levels for the test tones come out to be 75 dB SPL. (85 fB SPL - 10 dB FS = 75 dB SPL).


105 dB SPL represents full reference playback level. The following applies when the master volume is set to the calibrated reference level setting. On my receiver, -22 dB represents the calibrated reference level setting on the master volume control.


The -30 dB FS test tone will give you 75 dB SPL (105 dB SPL - 30 dB FS = 75 dB SPL).

The -20 dB FS test tone will give you 85 dB SPL (105 dB SPL - 30 dB FS = 85 dB SPL).
There it is! Now it's been explained clearly. Typo in the math bro but I understand where you're coming from.

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Yes.

And you didn't say poop about the graphs you asked for.

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Watching ratatouille with my son. And wow the thunder and shotgun shots at the beginning are powerful. Not too deep from what I can tell by dynamic!

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I thought the lightning scene in Ratatouille goes down to 10hz.


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post #13529 of 22679 Old 01-25-2014, 02:27 PM
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I thought the lightning scene in Ratatouille goes down to 10hz.
If it does that would make sense why it's so powerful. I guess because it's so quick. I'm used to the longer 10 Hz effects such as OHF etc. smile.gif

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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Consumer equipment uses built in -30 dBFS test tones for calibration purposes. The -20 dB FS test tones are used in commercial equipment used in a professional sound mixing stage.


I made up a test tone CD for testing purposes, and I generated the test tones at -20 dB FS (85 dB SPL playback level if master volume is set to reference level). I usually playback around -10 dB from the reference level setting on the master volume control, so my playback levels for the test tones come out to be 75 dB SPL. (85 dB SPL - 10 dB FS = 75 dB SPL).


105 dB SPL represents full reference playback level. The following applies when the master volume is set to the calibrated reference level setting. On my receiver, -22 dB represents the calibrated reference level setting on the master volume control.


The -30 dB FS test tone will give you 75 dB SPL (105 dB SPL - 30 dB FS = 75 dB SPL).

The -20 dB FS test tone will give you 85 dB SPL (105 dB SPL - 20 dB FS = 85 dB SPL).

There it is! Now it's been explained clearly. Typo in the math bro but I understand where you're coming from.



Corrected typo!

Note that one of the the reasons I made my own test disk is so that I can verify the calibration of my master volume control against the calibration made with the internal test tones used in my AVR. The two calibration results do match on my system.

If you have a THX rated receiver, then your results may not match!
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