The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 457 - AVS Forum
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post #13681 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

Highs or wides in 9.2?
Heights
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post #13682 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 12:33 PM
 
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...more like how we encounter sounds in real life so the movies became more convincing.

Sounds like the depth and width of the sound stage is increased. Never hurts to improve. I'm sure the wife will send you flowers and a thank-you note. tongue.gif

(lol)

Can you or anybody give ideas on which Klipsch speakers I should look at for "wides?"
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post #13683 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 12:34 PM
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I see. I read somewhere that wides are preferred over highs since there is more content on the x-axis vs the y.axis... so the sound should be 'richer'...
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post #13684 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 12:55 PM
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A small, direct-radiating bookshelf should do the job. One that is as similar to your current speakers would be the best bet (i.e., we don't know what you have).
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post #13685 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by shpitz View Post

I see. I read somewhere that wides are preferred over highs since there is more content on the x-axis vs the y.axis... so the sound should be 'richer'...
Maybe, but there's a lot of factors involved as to which setup would work better in your system. My setup already does a pretty good job of creating phantom images in between the mains and side surround so I don't even know if I'd bother even if I had a spot in my room to put them.

I went with height because when I went to 7.1 the soundstage the surround were throwing off was absolutely massive and making the front seem small by comparison.
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post #13686 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Sounds like the depth and width of the sound stage is increased. Never hurts to improve. I'm sure the wife will send you flowers and a thank-you note. tongue.gif

(lol)

Can you or anybody give ideas on which Klipsch speakers I should look at for "wides?"

 

To be honest I'm just using bookshelves in the same line as my LCR but I don't think timbre matching is necessary for the wides. But if you can match your fronts then you may want to because the wides blend right into the fronts, I almost never notice any type of localization. 

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post #13687 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post


Maybe, but there's a lot of factors involved as to which setup would work better in your system. My setup already does a pretty good job of creating phantom images in between the mains and side surround so I don't even know if I'd bother even if I had a spot in my room to put them.
 

I totally agree with this. I think it is very dependent on the HT setup. Having said that, I went with wides hoping to notice a difference but not expecting it to be much, I was happily surprised by how much the difference turned out to be. 

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post #13688 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 01:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

A small, direct-radiating bookshelf should do the job. One that is as similar to your current speakers would be the best bet (i.e., we don't know what you have).

L/R mains are Klipsch Epic CF-3s, the center channel is a RC-64 II and the surrounds are KSP-S6s. The system was put together, long before somebody decided wides were cool. tongue.gif
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post #13689 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 02:09 PM
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L/R mains are Klipsch Epic CF-3s, the center channel is a RC-64 II and the surrounds are KSP-S6s. The system was put together, long before somebody decided wides were cool. tongue.gif
Holy cow, I mean I saw those speakers in your profile pic but I didn't realize those were floorstanding speakers--those are monsters!! Well, I imagine something in the reference line would be a good bet. The new versions are the RB-61 II and RB-81 II but I'd imagine anything starting from the RF series would be good. Should be plenty of old Klipschs on the market... just because they sell and update so much.
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post #13690 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

Well, I imagine something in the reference line would be a good bet. The new versions are the RB-61 II and RB-81 II but I'd imagine anything starting from the RF series would be good.

Thanks for the thoughts. I've plenty of time before the wife will have recovered from the latest upgrade of receiver and subs. The idea of upgrading width and depth of the sound stage sounds very interesting. smile.gif

(...3 - 2 - 1 and back to the thread)

...
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post #13691 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks for the thoughts. I've plenty of time before the wife will have recovered from the latest upgrade of receiver and subs. The idea of upgrading width and depth of the sound stage sounds very interesting. smile.gif

(...3 - 2 - 1 and back to the thread)

...

B, do you cross yours @ 80Hz? I wonder what's the point of having full-range LCR's if you have good subs and you set the XO to 80Hz?

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post #13692 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 02:47 PM
 
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Agreed. It's a new day as everything was geared toward full range mains back in the early 90s. As to 80Hz crossovers, there's something about the 12dB/24dB crossover slope and where this becomes a consideration. Truthfully, I don't know how much it plays into the whole sound system thing. Hopefully somebody who has more knowledge on this point can weigh in.
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post #13693 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Sounds like the depth and width of the sound stage is increased. Never hurts to improve. I'm sure the wife will send you flowers and a thank-you note. tongue.gif

(lol)

Can you or anybody give ideas on which Klipsch speakers I should look at for "wides?"

Klipsch owners thread will give you the answers you need.

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post #13694 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 03:43 PM
 
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On my part, duh! redface.gif Good answer. Thanks.
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post #13695 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Agreed. It's a new day as everything was geared toward full range mains back in the early 90s. As to 80Hz crossovers, there's something about the 12dB/24dB crossover slope and where this becomes a consideration. Truthfully, I don't know how much it plays into the whole sound system thing. Hopefully somebody who have more knowledge on this point can weigh in.
80 Hz 12/24 is the "THX" crossover. It's designed for use with THX speakers and subs. It only works correctly with speakers designed to THX specifications.

Here's how it works: THX-type speakers have a -3 dB point of 80 Hz and they're sealed so they have a 12 dB/octave roll-off below their F3. Combine those speakers with a 12 dB/octave HPF and you get a *combined* 24 dB in-room roll-off of the speakers. Mate those speakers to a subwoofer that can extend up to 160 Hz, (one octave above 80 Hz), and then add a 24 dB/octave LPF to it, you get a true Linkwitz-Riley 24/24 (4th order), crossover. This crossover is known to be free from phase shift: http://www.rane.com/note160.html

As I said, this crossover only works correctly with speakers designed to the THX specification. A speaker with a lower or higher F3 won't roll off at the right point for this crossover. A ported speaker will roll off at 24 dB/octave below port tune, and port tune will likely not be 80 Hz. With non-THX design speakers, the crossover frequency and slope is a crapshoot. It would be nice if receivers had not only adjustable crossover frequencies, but also adjustable slopes, so the ideal combination of frequency and slope could be selected.

Please don't take this to mean that THX spec'd speakers are required to get good sound. Certainly non-THX speakers can be used for "good" sound. Even THX doesn't get THX speakers right. There are a number of THX certified speakers that don't actually hit the spec. Klipsch THX speakers have an F3 of 48 Hz and they're ported. The Crystal Acoustics THX Ultra2 speakers have an F3 of 33 Hz and are dual ported. The Atlantic Technology 8200e's have a -3 dB of 60 Hz, (although they are a sealed design.) Bottom line, even THX doesn't "certify" speakers that actually *use* their spec.

Craig

Edit: F# to F3
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post #13696 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 03:52 PM
 
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Thanks for the response. I would have been hosed if I had been ask to take the class today. tongue.gif

(our mains are dual ported and according to specs have an F3 of 35Hz so I'm hosed on that point also)

...tongue.gif

-
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post #13697 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

80 Hz 12/24 is the "THX" crossover. It's designed for use with THX speakers and subs. It only works correctly with speakers designed to THX specifications.

Here's how it works: THX-type speakers have a -3 dB point of 80 Hz and they're sealed so they have a 12 dB/octave roll-off below their F3. Combine those speakers with a 12 dB/octave LPF and you get a *combined* 24 dB in-room roll-off of the speakers. Mate those speakers to a subwoofer that can extend up to 160 Hz, (one octave above 80 Hz), and then add a 24 dB/octave HPF to it, you get a true Linkwitz-Riley 24/24 (4th order), crossover. This crossover is known to be free from phase shift: http://www.rane.com/note160.html
As long as your speakers don't have response range from 80hz and above and does not roll off too quickly @ 80hz if that is their -3db frequency, you should be able to emulate the THX specs through your receiver. smile.gif

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post #13698 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 04:06 PM
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As long as your speakers don't have response range from 80hz and above and does not roll off too quickly @ 80hz if that is their -3db frequency, you should be able to emulate the THX specs through your receiver. to implement a crossover at 80 Hz smile.gif

I fixed it for you. smile.gif You won't get a crossover that "emulates the THX spec's" but you'll get a crossover that "works." But it definitely won't be free of phase shift the way a true Linkwitz- Riley crossover is. Read the Rane link I posted above.

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post #13699 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Agreed. It's a new day as everything was geared toward full range mains back in the early 90s. As to 80Hz crossovers, there's something about the 12dB/24dB crossover slope and where this becomes a consideration. Truthfully, I don't know how much it plays into the whole sound system thing. Hopefully somebody who have more knowledge on this point can weigh in.
80 Hz 12/24 is the "THX" crossover. It's designed for use with THX speakers and subs. It only works correctly with speakers designed to THX specifications.

Here's how it works: THX-type speakers have a -3 dB point of 80 Hz and they're sealed so they have a 12 dB/octave roll-off below their F3. Combine those speakers with a 12 dB/octave LPF and you get a *combined* 24 dB in-room roll-off of the speakers. Mate those speakers to a subwoofer that can extend up to 160 Hz, (one octave above 80 Hz), and then add a 24 dB/octave HPF to it, you get a true Linkwitz-Riley 24/24 (4th order), crossover. This crossover is known to be free from phase shift: http://www.rane.com/note160.html

As I said, this crossover only works correctly with speakers designed to the THX specification. A speaker with a lower or higher F# won't roll off at the right point for this crossover. A ported speaker will roll off at 24 dB/octave below port tune, and port tune will likely not be 80 Hz. With non-THX design speakers, the crossover frequency and slope is a crapshoot. It would be nice if receivers had not only adjustable crossover frequencies, but also adjustable slopes, so the ideal combination of frequency and slope could be selected.

Please don't take this to mean that THX spec'd speakers are required to get good sound. Certainly non-THX speakers can be used for "good" sound. Even THX doesn't get THX speakers right. There are a number of THX certified speakers that don't actually hit the spec. Klipsch THX speakers have an F3 of 48 Hz and they're ported. The Crystal Acoustics THX Ultra2 speakers have an F3 of 33 Hz and are dual ported. The Atlantic Technology 8200e's have a -3 dB of 60 Hz, (although they are a sealed design.) Bottom line, even THX doesn't "certify" speakers that actually *use* their spec.

Craig
The above is also why I don't advocate the default arbitrary recommendation in the Audyssey thread of "run the Audyssey calibration then raise crossovers to 80Hz". With some receivers (like the Onkyos), the 80Hz crossover setting uses the THX-spec 2nd-order 12db/octave whilst all other settings use a 4th order rolloff. With speakers that can play flat at reference to 40Hz or lower, a 4th order filter would be more ideal with an 80Hz crossover, but any avr/pre-pro that displays 'THX' next to the 80Hz crossover option uses a 2nd order filter for that selection. This means with speakers that DON'T have a built-in 2nd order rolloff from 80Hz down, the speaker rolloff with this crossover isn't optimal.

OTOH, to get a 4th order HPF, you would likely end up having to select 100Hz (leading to the potential for sub localization), or 60Hz (ideally requiring that your speakers be capable of playing flat at Reference to 30Hz or lower).


Max
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post #13700 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I fixed it for you. smile.gif You won't get a crossover that "emulates the THX spec's" but you'll get a crossover that "works." But it definitely won't be free of phase shift the way a true Linkwitz- Riley crossover is. Read the Rane link I posted above.

Craig
I can generate the 24db roll off @80hz with both the LPF and HPF which is what I think you are saying what THX does. Like I saying, you can adjust your receiver to roll the speakers off at the desired level and hence create a 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover.

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post #13701 of 17368 Old 01-31-2014, 08:58 PM
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I can generate the 24db roll off @80hz with both the LPF and HPF which is what I think you are saying what THX does. Like I saying, you can adjust your receiver to roll the speakers off at the desired level and hence create a 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover.
Your Datasat receiver has adjustable HPF and LPF slopes, so sure, YOU can implement any slope and LPF frequency you want. Still, if you want to get the "true" THX crossover, you're limited to sealed or IB speakers. Ported speakers will work down to port tune, but will be less than ideal below port tune. For example, your speakers:



Your speakers are ported with an F3 of 38 Hz. If you select a 24 dB/octave slope @ 80 Hz, you would have that down to 38 Hz. Below 38 Hz, you would have a 36 dB/octave roll off, (12 + 24). -24 dB @ 38 Hz may be down far enough in level to not be a problem, and that's great for YOU. However, you also made the generalization that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

As long as your speakers don't have response range from 80hz and above and does not roll off too quickly @ 80hz if that is their -3db frequency, you should be able to emulate the THX specs through your receiver. smile.gif

This is what I'm not following Dave. Mainstream receivers don't have the kind of adjusability you have with your Datasat, so your capabilities don't "crossover" to other systems, (pun intended!) Most people don't even know what their crossover slopes are, or whether they change based on the center frequency selected. To make the general statement that "you should be able to emulate the THX specs through your receiver" simply doesn't work for the vast majority of mainstream receivers.

THX uses a 2nd order, (12 dB/octave) LPF at 80 Hz. This *only* works to result in a 4th order, (24 dB/octave) in-room roll off if the speakers also have a 12 dB/octave roll off starting at 80 Hz. This would require a sealed or infinite baffle speaker with an F3 of 80 Hz. How many speakers do you know of that have that exact spec?

With any other speaker, you won't get the correct match of roll off and F3 to match up with the THX crossover. For example, if you take a ported speaker with an F3 of 55 Hz, and cross it over at 80 Hz with a 2nd order LPF, you'll end up with a speaker/LPF combo that rolls off at 12 dB/octave to 55 Hz and then 36 dB/octave below 47 Hz. Neither of those is a "4th order" THX roll off. That combination might "work," but it won't be free of phase shift at all frequencies like the Linkwitz - Riley pure 4th/4th crossover.

Craig
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Just watched Percy Jackson Sea of Monsters (PJSOM?). Some nice bass moments in there but substantially less than the first film and I didn't feel it was overly well done with the exception of a few scenes. Some scenes were great, others the bass just didn't sound quite right or there was not enough of it to match the action on screen. Unlike the first one where they just nailed it. Quite watchable all the same.

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post #13703 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Your Datasat receiver has adjustable HPF and LPF slopes, so sure, YOU can implement any slope and LPF frequency you want. Still, if you want to get the "true" THX crossover, you're limited to sealed or IB speakers. Ported speakers will work down to port tune, but will be less than ideal below port tune. For example, your speakers:



Your speakers are ported with an F3 of 38 Hz. If you select a 24 dB/octave slope @ 80 Hz, you would have that down to 38 Hz. Below 38 Hz, you would have a 36 dB/octave roll off, (12 + 24). -24 dB @ 38 Hz may be down far enough in level to not be a problem, and that's great for YOU. However, you also made the generalization that:
This is what I'm not following Dave. Mainstream receivers don't have the kind of adjusability you have with your Datasat, so your capabilities don't "crossover" to other systems, (pun intended!) Most people don't even know what their crossover slopes are, or whether they change based on the center frequency selected. To make the general statement that "you should be able to emulate the THX specs through your receiver" simply doesn't work for the vast majority of mainstream receivers.

THX uses a 2nd order, (12 dB/octave) LPF at 80 Hz. This *only* works to result in a 4th order, (24 dB/octave) in-room roll off if the speakers also have a 12 dB/octave roll off starting at 80 Hz. This would require a sealed or infinite baffle speaker with an F3 of 80 Hz. How many speakers do you know of that have that exact spec?

With any other speaker, you won't get the correct match of roll off and F3 to match up with the THX crossover. For example, if you take a ported speaker with an F3 of 55 Hz, and cross it over at 80 Hz with a 2nd order LPF, you'll end up with a speaker/LPF combo that rolls off at 12 dB/octave to 55 Hz and then 36 dB/octave below 47 Hz. Neither of those is a "4th order" THX roll off. That combination might "work," but it won't be free of phase shift at all frequencies like the Linkwitz - Riley pure 4th/4th crossover.

Craig
My Bad! Very true of what you speak. I forget , or should I say I am a little naive when it comes to this kind of stuff. It is hard to not imagine the flexibility that the DataSat unit provides.

And being that my speakers are in a baffle wall, I get about 12 db of added headroom which brings my speakers in room response down to about +/- 26hz. (measurements made by me)

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post #13704 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 05:32 AM
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Too bad this thread has derailed so much - barely see one movie observation a page now
lets actually watch some movies and tell us what you thought of the audio - Cheers
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Never was the best bass thread anyway....Need to go to DataBase forum for that.

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post #13706 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 05:43 AM
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point taken GP...

i watched "rush" last nite and was impressed


may not dig down deep but i thought the soundtrack complimented the film beautifully...i never felt bass was lacking

buttkicker might have swayed my opinion somewhat, but i thought it was a great bass movie...
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post #13707 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 05:49 AM
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rush digs down to 9hz

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post #13708 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 06:02 AM
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Finally watched WOTW after getting my PB-1000 this summer. I'm in a condo and it's one of the few times I've actually turned my sub off before 10pm in fear of upsetting my neighbors. Whoops! May try to watch it earlier in the day sometime when less people are home.

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post #13709 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

I saw Rush last night. Great surround effects, but I was disappointed that the bass was not that deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post

I really liked Rush. But as you said I was left wanting more. I kept waiting for that rumble that I got from Driven (the quarter scene) it just never came. Otherwise a very enjoyable movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

rush digs down to 9hz


i keep reading comments like the 2 above...



9hz is a little out of my realm...i have two trinity's and they are solid down to 16hz, drop like lead thereafter...i don't know if they are doing much below 10hz

ya know tho, i do get a cool effect during "fn irene"...but i'm sure nuthin' like da big boys
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post #13710 of 17368 Old 02-01-2014, 06:46 AM
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Don't kid yourself, there is nothing to the big boys on the Irene scene, from anything I've experienced and that includes pretty much the best this forum has to offer.

This is obviously a VERY subjective post - but to me the ultra low subsonic frequency chase is for naught.

Since a demo session with sixteen 18" subwoofers in a 1,500 cubic foot room didn't do it for me - - I'm personally not going to worry about pursuing the very lowest frequencies. That system was my litmus test. A very nice system indeed, but still the audible bass frequencies are much more impressive and present - even in the tracks meant to showcase the subsonic stuff. We did some DSP testing on different ULF clips at popalocks and when the sub 14hz stuff was absent I didn't give a toot. When we tested with only stuff below 14hz and a low pass filter removing everything above 14hz - it just wasn't anything to swoon about on any of the media. The cool thing was the sixteen subs and the acoustic energy they could produce - moving pantlegs, shaking walls, moving grocery bags in the next room, shaking doors like something paranormal, etc --- least of which was the subsonic ULF demos.

A helicopter sounds way better/more impressive in something like the movie Drive underpass scene where the bass frequency isn't even loaded at the lowest hz level.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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