The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 478 - AVS Forum
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post #14311 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 05:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My AVR happened to get everything right as individual channels and EQ is concerned so rather than turning down every channel down 13 dBs I just turn down the MV 13 dBs and I is much easier and faster. Same end result but the individual levels were good. If they each were different I would have changed the trims.

Sounds like a good plan. I'll give it more consideration the next time Audyssey is run.
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post #14312 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 05:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Update just found out its indeed filtered and perhaps a solid 3.5 for me over all, but...

...confused.gif

Why go through all the trouble to lay the tracks down and then hobble the sound track by filtering the sound track?

...confused.gif

(compared to other bass heavy movies, I'm of the personal impression that BHD is heavily filtered)

-
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post #14313 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Real world sound meter levels may be misleading. Too narrow a band is used in the internal test tone to be positive about that.
I'm not too sure what would be misleading, but allow me to say that narrowband noise is ideal for SPL meter calibration of speakers. It is weighted to the important midband range, where things like dialog live, and which avoids bandwidth limits of bass management and the response uncertainties at the frequency extremes.

If you compare wideband and narrowband noise on a system where the responses are very smooth, "flat," then both noises ought to read very close. If they do not read the same, believe the narrowband one for channel cals.



Hi Roger.

I agree with all of that. Note that I showed in a previous posting a chart of the FR of the internal test tones that my receiver generates. I don't think that the trim settings are that critical anyhow. My surround speaker trims are set 3 dB (AKA 72 dBspl) lower than the front speakers because they sound louder with the internal test tones as compared with how they measure with the SPL meter.

My point was more or less directed at what some posters have said what they do to calibrate their systems. They auto-calibrate via Audyssey (or whatever), then they adjust the trims with the tones and an SPL meter to make the individual trim settings read 75 dBspl with the use of an SPL meter and the internal tones (or external tones like Avia, etc)..

So if there are differences in the comparative trim settings which trim settings are more accurate? The automated trim settings or the measured with SPL meter trim settings?
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post #14314 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Sorry replying so late, just got done with Ender's Game.  Here are my thoughts, assuming I am following the conversation:

Out of the box, 0 on an AVR does not mean it will provide reference level volume regardless of the rest of your equipment.  I believe it is dependent on the efficiency of ones speakers and the distance from the speakers to the MLP.

When running the automatic setup procedure such as Audysey or YPAO, the microphone will adjust output level so that SPL at the MLP will be reference when the MV is set to 0.  Without running this setup procedure, the AVR has no way of knowing how loud content will be at the MLP, as this is entirely dependent on ones speakers and distance to MLP.  The AVR then determines how much power needs to be provided based on that .

This is my understanding, so feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm not trying to correct anything in my below and I'm not knocking your understanding of what you posted above. The fly in the ointment, the whole thing is based on the theoretical bases of a system actually being capable of continuous reference level play. Just because Audyssey tells the AVR life's good, doesn't mean it is. Ten little Audyssey sonic chirps do not constitute a valid stress test.

As an example, our old system was a very capable system of sensitive speakers, three subwoofers and a top end receiver but despite what Audyssey said, when it came to reference level play, the subs couldn't cut it and when the action levels picked up, I could hear the speakers fade behind the subwoofers, because the amplifier in the AVR couldn't keep the sound levels at peak demand, reference level play.

The point, despite what Audyssey told our receiver, it was all a technical lie. Technically speaking, the system was reference capable but in real terms, disappointingly, the system was a bust. In my opinion what's happening, Audyssey tests the system to minimums, setting levels accordingly and it's up to the owner to make sure the system is capable of maximums. In our case the problem has since been remedied but it took a boatload of cash to get the rest of our system up to snuff so as to be able to keep up with our speakers. Now our system is continuous reference level capable.

That's how I see it.

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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

This makes sense of course.  The assumption being that the amp has enough wattage and the speakers having the capability to cleanly achieve reference.  My point was geared more towards the idea of 0 not being automatically reference, but is equipment and MLP dependent.  Assuming cabability, 0 = reference after in room calibration.

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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The whole concept, after being dialed in, is based on +/-0dB being full on reference so after running Audyssey, +/-0 is automatically expected to be reference.

Reads like we all agree here. That's why my initial response was that once properly calibrated, MV 0 = reference level. There may be odd receivers that don't use 0 as reference, but I don't know of any. The only thing I questioned is the statement that it was dependent on speakers. During the calibration process, speaker sensitivity and listening distances are taken into consideration so they have no bearing on post calibration levels. Now whether the speakers or amps can get the system to reference level that's a whole different issue altogether.



As far as I know that 0 dBrl is calibrated to "reference level" on the master volume readout is a THX specification. That does not mean that a non-THX unit uses the same standard.

Read the last paragraph in the page linked to below.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-2.html


In addition the THX reference playback level is different than Dolby reference playback level when you use DD material.
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post #14315 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Update just found out its indeed filtered and perhaps a solid 3.5 for me over all, but...

...confused.gif

Why go through all the trouble to lay the tracks down and then hobble the sound track by filtering the sound track?

...confused.gif

(compared to other bass heavy movies, I'm of the personal impression that BHD is heavily filtered)

-


You mean filtered like a Vitaphone audio track?tongue.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Hi Roger.

I agree with all of that. Note that I showed in a previous posting a chart of the FR of the internal test tones that my receiver generates. I don't think that the trim settings are that critical anyhow. My surround speaker trims are set 3 dB (AKA 72 dBspl) lower than the front speakers because they sound louder with the internal test tones as compared with how they measure with the SPL meter.

I associate this phenomenon with speaker timbre change/shift, unless matched speakers, larger mains vs smaller surrounds, the smaller drivers have a higher pitch. It's that way with our system so I go with the sound meter, knowing, that in our case, because of timbre shift, I'm being fooled by the higher pitched sound of the smaller surround drivers. Not saying that's the case with your system, just saying, we have a similar experience and this is what I attribute the sonic difference to.

-

(i hate hockey. it's too intense. Olympics; USA vs Russia.....)

Score below:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
USA 3/Russia 2

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post #14317 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

will check it out sometime - I like Chloe Grace Moretz in her other films
PvA is really weak - chopped off at knees

She was great for the role! and the modern circumstances in relation to the original of why she did what she did played well here for another remake! The 30hz stuff here is first rate and does give the impression of lower content! I also had the chance to go back and watch "Halo" at reference and yeah its eek.gif very good room lock indeed !

Enjoy "Carrie" when you get around to it smile.gif
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Hi Roger.

I agree with all of that. Note that I showed in a previous posting a chart of the FR of the internal test tones that my receiver generates. I don't think that the trim settings are that critical anyhow. My surround speaker trims are set 3 dB (AKA 72 dBspl) lower than the front speakers because they sound louder with the internal test tones as compared with how they measure with the SPL meter.

My point was more or less directed at what some posters have said what they do to calibrate their systems. They auto-calibrate via Audyssey (or whatever), then they adjust the trims with the tones and an SPL meter to make the individual trim settings read 75 dBspl with the use of an SPL meter and the internal tones (or external tones like Avia, etc)..

So if there are differences in the comparative trim settings which trim settings are more accurate? The automated trim settings or the measured with SPL meter trim settings?

I was very surprised with the results from Audyssey on my Marantz 8801 on it levels I have an older DTS setup disc that came with a stand alone processor that i use to confirm levels along with internal test tones with the later being the more accurate due to full bandwidth pink noise. The only caveat was the sub being down 3db! I 'm using a RS spl meter c-weighted slow response, all levels other than the sub were dead on!
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post #14319 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

My point was more or less directed at what some posters have said what they do to calibrate their systems. They auto-calibrate via Audyssey (or whatever), then they adjust the trims with the tones and an SPL meter to make the individual trim settings read 75 dBspl with the use of an SPL meter and the internal tones (or external tones like Avia, etc)..

So if there are differences in the comparative trim settings which trim settings are more accurate? The automated trim settings or the measured with SPL meter trim settings?
We do not know the decision-making process for the automated trims. Sometimes they include the EQ, sometimes not. And what bandwidth is involved? Can't be sure. So I'd give the nod to the SPL meter and external bandlimited noise (of known accuracy). No uncertainty there!
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

As far as I know that 0 dBrl is calibrated to "reference level" on the master volume readout is a THX specification. That does not mean that a non-THX unit uses the same standard.
If someone plays a known ref disc, with test tones at -30 dB FS, and sets the MV to 0 and the trims for 75 dB, then it is calibrated like THX, even for non-THX units. Easy to do.

Quote:
In addition THX reference level is different than Dolby reference level. Read the last paragraph in the page linked to below.
I looked at that paragraph but did not see anything about different ref levels. But no matter, the reference levels are neither THX's nor Dolby's, they are SMPTE's, and everyone uses the same concept. Where things got messy is the Dialnorm thing, but that's another matter.
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Inside (A_Linterieur).
DTS-MA – French
First off this movie kind of freaked me out
Watching this at reference did not help
LFE is excellent – audio had a lot of those jump moments
and hits pretty hard at times – couple sweep seemed really low
maybe single digits .
Only issue was fidelity not always top notch
and some edge to the audio – if speakers lean to bright side
would definitely be issue
Its older flick so probably never measured - be interesting to see

15400 Watts of Seaton Power -Quad SubMersived
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

Inside (A_Linterieur).
DTS-MA – French
First off this movie kind of freaked me out
Watching this at reference did not help
LFE is excellent – audio had a lot of those jump moments
and hits pretty hard at times – couple sweep seemed really low
maybe single digits .
Only issue was fidelity not always top notch
and some edge to the audio – if speakers lean to bright side
would definitely be issue
Its older flick so probably never measured - be interesting to see



+1
This movie had some incredible BASS and very disturbing imo! For me this was a one time watch, or maybe around Halloween this year and I adore Horror flicks!

October HorrorFest Participant
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post #14323 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

As far as I know that 0 dBrl is calibrated to "reference level" on the master volume readout is a THX specification. That does not mean that a non-THX unit uses the same standard.
If someone plays a known ref disc, with test tones at -30 dB FS, and sets the MV to 0 and the trims for 75 dB, then it is calibrated like THX, even for non-THX units. Easy to do.


That paragraph refers to the THX type of volume readout (0dB on master volume = reference level). I guess I placed the two sentences in the wrong order. I made an edit to the original posting to clarify.

That setup procedure can not be done on my receiver. I have an oldish Sony STR-DA4ES 7.1 PL2 with EX receiver. Sony uses 0 dB on the master volume to indicate "all the way up". There is no +1 dB readout. The R & L channels have no trims (just a balance control) to prevent someone from trying that procedure. Even if I could adjust the trims, there is only a maximum +10 / -20 dB trim adjustment.

Like I said, -22 dB on the master volume is the calibrated reference level setting (subject to how accurate a RS Digital SPL meter is). I do get the same results with the internal test tones, a test CD that I made up, and THX Optimizer which is DD.

A lot of people who posted here recently can not use 0 dB on the master volume as the calibrated maser volume setting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Quote:
In addition THX reference level is different than Dolby reference level. Read the last paragraph in the page linked to below.
I looked at that paragraph but did not see anything about different ref levels. But no matter, the reference levels are neither THX's nor Dolby's, they are SMPTE's, and everyone uses the same concept. Where things got messy is the Dialnorm thing, but that's another matter.


Yes, but THX receivers dick with the messy dialnorm thingy. As far as I know, THX playback reference level (what you calibrate for in consumer equipment) assumes that a DVD will use a dialnorm value of -27 on the DD track.

As I recall a THX rated receiver will adjust the internal gains of the receiver to make that dialnorm value -27 content playback at the same volume level as a DTS track that does not use dialnorm.

A Dolby rated receiver will make a DVD that has a dialnorm value of -31 playback at the same volume level as a DTS track that does not use dialnorm.

It is likely that a THX rated receiver will playback any DD disk 4 dB louder than a Dolby receiver.

My Dolby receiver has a dialnorm value readout . Dialnorm values are all over the place. Off air ATSC is in the -24 dialnorm value area.

Some receivers use a dialnorm offset readout. As I understand it, the THX rated receiver will display 0 dB for dialnorm offset when you have DD content that uses a dialnorm value of -27. A dialnorm offset of +4 means that a dialnorm value of -31 was used to encode the content.



With all of that being said, a THX rated receiver will most likely playback DD material 4 dB louder than DD material being played back on non THX rated equipment. DTS material will playback the same on both types of units. Am I wrong in my conclusion?
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Oh my gosh! Just finished watching "Pacific Rim."

I watched at -17.5dB with subs running +10dB hot and the CC jacked up +6dB. Bass was running in the +105dB to +110dB. The whole movie was a bassfest. At this listening level, I'm sure the wife will more than be happy as for her benefit, usually we listen in the -20dB to -15dB range. With these settings, most dialogue was in the 65dB to 90dB range and as bass effects were added, the SPL would rise to +100dB to +108dB with a few 110dB peaks.

Very nice, for a basshead with a reference capable system, very nice; highly recommended.

(a little weak on the scrip but the effects, sound track and costuming was very well thought out, nothing short of excellent)

After getting everything dialed in flat, myself, I'm just worried about what shows up on the face of the sound meter and finding a way to keep the sound levels at a level the wife will find acceptable, and not lose any of the bass effects.

(and with one of the subs nearfield, three feet from the MLP, the chair rumbles and rolls; lots of tactile sensation)

...biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

Inside (A_Linterieur).
DTS-MA – French
First off this movie kind of freaked me out

Don't like the freaky stuff but because of your mini-review of AIL, I have a blu-ray copy on the way. Thanks for the mini-review and recommendation.

...wink.gif
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post #14326 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:42 PM
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Oh my gosh! Just finished watching "Pacific Rim."

I watched at -17.5dB with subs running +10dB hot and the CC jacked up +6dB. Bass was running in the +105dB to +110dB. The whole movie was a bassfest. At this listening level, I'm sure the wife will more than be happy as for her benefit, usually we listen in the -20dB to -15dB range. With these settings, most dialogue was in the 65dB to 90dB range and as bass effects were added, the SPL would rise to +100dB to +108dB with a few 110dB peaks.

Very nice, for a basshead with a reference capable system, very nice; highly recommended.

(a little weak on the scrip but the effects, sound track and costuming was very well thought out, nothing short of excellent)



What is the calibrated reference level readout on your master volume control? THX or non THX receiver?


110 dB spl peaks plus 17.5 dB (for master volume setting difference from 0 dB) plus 10 dB (subwoofer 10 dB hot) = 136.5 dB SPL peaks if 0 dB on the master volume is the calibrated master volume setting.

Not going to happen if 0 dB on the master volume is calibrated reference playback level!
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Sure looks like a minus sign in front of the 17.5.....

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post #14328 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Hi Roger.

I agree with all of that. Note that I showed in a previous posting a chart of the FR of the internal test tones that my receiver generates. I don't think that the trim settings are that critical anyhow. My surround speaker trims are set 3 dB (AKA 72 dBspl) lower than the front speakers because they sound louder with the internal test tones as compared with how they measure with the SPL meter.

My point was more or less directed at what some posters have said what they do to calibrate their systems. They auto-calibrate via Audyssey (or whatever), then they adjust the trims with the tones and an SPL meter to make the individual trim settings read 75 dBspl with the use of an SPL meter and the internal tones (or external tones like Avia, etc)..

So if there are differences in the comparative trim settings which trim settings are more accurate? The automated trim settings or the measured with SPL meter trim settings?

I was very surprised with the results from Audyssey on my Marantz 8801 on it levels I have an older DTS setup disc that came with a stand alone processor that i use to confirm levels along with internal test tones with the later being the more accurate due to full bandwidth pink noise. The only caveat was the sub being down 3db! I 'm using a RS spl meter c-weighted slow response, all levels other than the sub were dead on!



So the automated process set your trims just as accurate as the SPL method. Very nice.

Does 0 dB on your master volume control represent the reference level setting? Have you tested this out with a DD test disk as compared with a DTS test disk?
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post #14329 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:54 PM
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The old "loudness button" did work fairly well when audio was played back at low levels.

Awesome.... opinion.

Facts: Every manny who included a loudness button had its own version of the EQ curve. The ELC are averages from an unspecified number of people, all of whom have different perceptions of what is equal loudness. Finally, we who get the whole phenomenon of playback of recorded sound understand that how loud 16.5 Hz sine tone has to be to "sound as loud, averaged from 1,000 opinions on the subject" as a 1,000 Hz sine tone at 'x' dB IS IRRELEVANT.
Quote:
Funny how you doctored the ELC curve that I supplied to suit your own purposes. All the documented curves on that chart differ by 20 dB at 1 kHz. By definition, that is accurate. In the 20 Hz area, all of the curves vary by about 10 dB. That means 5 dB of change at 20 Hz for every 10 dB of change at 20 Hz. The 2 dB calculation that you made up is based on a curve that was doctored by you by intent and is not accurate information.

I doctored nothing. I used the "previous" curves. Previous to what? Why did they need revised? What changed in the criteria to affect such a change?

Let's take your "revised" curves.

10dB at 20 Hz, 4dB at 125 Hz = 7dB average. Cut that in half and you get 3.5dB average in the SW band.

Take, instead, your 5dB suggestion. IMO, if you play music at 0dBRL, then play the same music at -10dBRL with the subs bumped +5dB and you don't hear a FR change, your hearing is too poor to comment in this discussion. Loudness buttons (by any other name) are a detriment. They're certainly not required when listening at -10dBRL with the subs running an average of +6dB hot to begin with (which is the consensus gleaned from this forum over 12 years time) and I wish we could stop reading these errant "because this is how you hear" ELC references.
Quote:
As far as the SL content following the ELC, that is another misconception made by you. Fine you made an FFT curve fit for the low end. Have you ever looked at the high end on SL to see if it fits the curve? Well it does not do so in any way shape or form. SL is not a "the way that you hear" representation of content. SL is a straight FFT program. You have to use an octave based RTA program in order to "see" how balanced the soundtrack is.

A straight FFT program displays acoustic energy in a fixed bandwidth per bin manner. An RTA program display acoustic energy in a fixed octave per bin manner that is based on how you hear. An RTA adds up all the FFT bins in a fixed bandwidth and displays them in a fixed per octave manner (AKA variable bandwidth).

FFT - bandwidth of one bin at 20 Hz = bandwidth of one bin at 1 kHz (etc)

RTA - bandwidth of 1/6 octave in 20 Hz to 40 Hz (AKA 1 octave) area is about 3.6 Hz = bandwidth of 1/6 octave in the 1 kHz to 2 khz (AKA 1 octave) area is about 170 Hz.

What this means is that the SL FFT program does not display frequencies in a manner that is based on how you hear. With SL, a 1 kHz the signal level displayed on SL will be down 30 dB from the 1 Hz signal level recorded on a soundtrack that is balanced and is based on how you / the mixer hears. With an RTA program, the soundtrack will measure flat with the same content. That is hardly a "smiley curve" that you misrepresented as having a meaning in this application.

Who said SL has anything to do with "the way you hear", and why would we want it to?

SL graphs what is input according to your settings. That's what we want it to do for the purposes of this thread, and it does so quite well.

Here is 10 Hz and 1,000 Hz input at the same level (REW generator only goes down to 10 Hz, but which particular low Hz you prefer is irrelevant):



The input signal was at -12dB for both frequencies. They sure look the same to me by all 4 metrics shown on the SL graph.

For MWB, we're not interested in what is happening in the soundtrack at 1,000 Hz, so we shorten the graphing BW to add resolution below 120 Hz for MWB. When we do that, we get far greater resolution to 1 Hz and guess what? When you input 10 Hz vs 100 Hz, equal input, you get equal output from SL... with greater resolution:



So, yeah, feed SL a Log sweep and it will accurately show the attributes of a log sine sweep. That would be useless information, as we already know this, but the point is that SL will render that log sine sweep as it is input. Input a soundtrack and it will accurately depict that input as well. That would be useful information because every soundtrack is different and we want to see those differences.
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post #14330 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What is the calibrated reference level readout on your master volume control? THX or non THX receiver?


110 dB spl peaks plus 17.5 dB (for master volume setting difference from 0 dB) plus 10 dB (subwoofer 10 dB hot) = 136.5 dB SPL peaks if 0 dB on the master volume is the calibrated master volume setting.

The MVC was set to -17.5dB with both subs set +10dB hot. The part missing, the mains and surrounds are -17.5dB. The CC is -11.5dB and both subs are -7.5dB from +/-0dBfs.

The receiver is a Denon AVR4520CI, non-THX: –79.5dB – 18.0dB : Display ---dB (Min), in the range –79.5 dB to 18.0 dB: pg 124 PDF manual.

(i cannot convey how tickled i am with these settings)
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post #14331 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Sure looks like a minus sign in front of the 17.5.....



Yes, the master volume was said to be set to 17.5 dB below reference level (AKA -17.5 dB) on the master volume readout.

In order to get back to 0 dB as being calibrated reference level on the master volume you have to add 17.5 dB to -17.5 dB to end up with 0 dB!
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post #14332 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What is the calibrated reference level readout on your master volume control? THX or non THX receiver?


110 dB spl peaks plus 17.5 dB (for master volume setting difference from 0 dB) plus 10 dB (subwoofer 10 dB hot) = 136.5 dB SPL peaks if 0 dB on the master volume is the calibrated master volume setting.

Not going to happen if 0 dB on the master volume is calibrated reference playback level!

O on my system is dead quiet. Nope, not a THX system. I'm sure there are other people who watch this thread for movies with bass who don't have a THX-rated system. For me, "listening at reference level" is about 80. And I am flat to 11Hz. No graphs, sorry.

With dual subs, stack'em in the corner and put on a jockstrap. Don't want EVERYTHING in the room jingling!
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post #14333 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:01 PM
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So if it's down 17.5 db from reference of 0, not sure what your point is the way you calculated spl by adding it to reference?

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post #14334 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What is the calibrated reference level readout on your master volume control? THX or non THX receiver?


110 dB spl peaks plus 17.5 dB (for master volume setting difference from 0 dB) plus 10 dB (subwoofer 10 dB hot) = 136.5 dB SPL peaks if 0 dB on the master volume is the calibrated master volume setting.

Not going to happen if 0 dB on the master volume is calibrated reference playback level!

O on my system is dead quiet. Nope, not a THX system. I'm sure there are other people who watch this thread for movies with bass who don't have a THX-rated system. For me, "listening at reference level" is about 80. And I am flat to 11Hz. No graphs, sorry.



Good reminder. I forgot about that setup. That is the absolute scale (not in dB, or is it?). Even absolute scales vary. All the way up on one of my older receivers was 50 on the absolute scale, and 0 dB was all the way down.

The 0 dB we are talking applies to the relative dB scale. Minus infinity is all the way down on my receiver.
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post #14335 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:09 PM
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So if it's down 17.5 db from reference of 0, not sure what your point is the way you calculated spl by adding it to reference?
I think he is trying to say if playing at 0 the bass peaks would be over 130db. So he is calling bs that at -17.5 mv with a 10db hot subs setting he is getting 110db bass output

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post #14336 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:10 PM
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So if it's down 17.5 db from reference of 0, not sure what your point is the way you calculated spl by adding it to reference?


How loud will that DVD play if he sets the master volume to 0 dB?

If the calibrated master volume setting is not 0 dB, then how does a master volume setting of -17.5 relate to any standard?
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post #14337 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:21 PM
 
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I think he is trying to say if playing at 0 the bass peaks would be over 130db. So he is calling bs that at -17.5 mv with a 10db hot subs setting he is getting 110db bass output

I don't know how loud the system will play, but if I have all levels set to flat, I easily have 115dB peaks but unfortunately, the rest of the sound track is too loud for the wife, hence the level adjustments. She's currently out of the house visiting with family so I'm at home with the cat and the parrot, so this is a good time to see what I can come up with to make both of us happy.

One port open, according to Data-Bass:

Rythmik Audio, FV15HP(1 port).../...98.5...104...108.3...111.7...115.3...117.8...118...117.9... 117.8...117.6...117.2

I have two, one positioned nearfield. With two subs and cabin gain, no problem reaching full on, continuous, reference level play. Being that this is a thread about bass in movies, I simply posted my experience with "Pacific Rim" when I posted:

"Oh my gosh! Just finished watching "Pacific Rim.""

For those who are into bass, as is the purpose of the thread, it's an excellent movie for bassheads to enjoy.

...biggrin.gif

(for those who are interested, with these settings, just to see what happens, I have no intention of seeing if I can abuse and kill our system by running the MVC up to +/-0dB)

...wink.gif

-
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post #14338 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

I think he is trying to say if playing at 0 the bass peaks would be over 130db. So he is calling bs that at -17.5 mv with a 10db hot subs setting he is getting 110db bass output

I don't know how loud the system will play, but if I have all levels set to flat, I easily have 115dB peaks but unfortunately, the rest of the sound track is too loud for the wife, hence the level adjustments. She's currently out of the house visiting with family so I'm at home with the cat and the parrot, so this is a good time to see what I can come up with to make both of us happy.

One port open, according to Data-Bass:

Rythmik Audio, FV15HP(1 port).../...98.5...104...108.3...111.7...115.3...117.8...118...117.9... 117.8...117.6...117.2

I have two, one positioned nearfield. With two subs and cabin gain, no problem reaching full on, continuous, reference level play. Being that this is a thread about bass in movies, I simply posted my experience with "Pacific Rim" when I posted:

"Oh my gosh! Just finished watching "Pacific Rim.""

For those who are into bass, as is the purpose of the thread, it's an excellent movie for bassheads to enjoy.

...biggrin.gif

(for those who are interested, just to see what happens, with these settings, I have no intention of seeing if I can abuse and kill our system by running the MVC up to +/-0dB)

...wink.gif

-



Everything went right by you again. That was not my point. I asked you what the calibrated reference level setting is on your master volume control. I also asked if your receiver is a standard or THX rated receiver.

If 0 dB is not the calibrated reference level setting on your receiver, then saying you have the master volume set to -17.5 has no meaning to any of us.

Like I said, the calibrated reference level setting on my receiver is -22 dB!
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post #14339 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 04:49 PM
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The old "loudness button" did work fairly well when audio was played back at low levels.

Awesome.... opinion.

Facts: Every manny who included a loudness button had its own version of the EQ curve. The ELC are averages from an unspecified number of people, all of whom have different perceptions of what is equal loudness. Finally, we who get the whole phenomenon of playback of recorded sound understand that how loud 16.5 Hz sine tone has to be to "sound as loud, averaged from 1,000 opinions on the subject" as a 1,000 Hz sine tone at 'x' dB IS IRRELEVANT.


I used to use that loudness button when I played back music at "low levels" in the old days when there was no such thing as reference level. Then again mute on my old receiver was a volume reduction of 20 dB!

No one said that a 16 Hz tone has to be reproduced on a recording at any particular SPL level regardless of the ELC.


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Funny how you doctored the ELC curve that I supplied to suit your own purposes. All the documented curves on that chart differ by 20 dB at 1 kHz. By definition, that is accurate. In the 20 Hz area, all of the curves vary by about 10 dB. That means 5 dB of change at 20 Hz for every 10 dB of change at 20 Hz. The 2 dB calculation that you made up is based on a curve that was doctored by you by intent and is not accurate information.

I doctored nothing. I used the "previous" curves. Previous to what? Why did they need revised? What changed in the criteria to affect such a change?

Let's take your "revised" curves.

10dB at 20 Hz, 4dB at 125 Hz = 7dB average. Cut that in half and you get 3.5dB average in the SW band.

Take, instead, your 5dB suggestion. IMO, if you play music at 0dBRL, then play the same music at -10dBRL with the subs bumped +5dB and you don't hear a FR change, your hearing is too poor to comment in this discussion. Loudness buttons (by any other name) are a detriment. They're certainly not required when listening at -10dBRL with the subs running an average of +6dB hot to begin with (which is the consensus gleaned from this forum over 12 years time) and I wish we could stop reading these errant "because this is how you hear" ELC references.




125 Hz is outside of the subwoofer range. On my system, I cross at a nominal 50 Hz.

I think that I said to boost the subwoofer by +5 dB over the flat settings (not starting with a 6 dB boost). Did it ever occur to you that people boost their subwoofer by a nominal 5 dB+ over flat because they listen to content at less than reference level? I suggest that this is done based on the changes in adjacent ELC curves. You say the typical 6 dB of subwoofer boosting has nothing to do with the ELC changes when the volume is played back at lower levels.
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post #14340 of 17362 Old 02-15-2014, 05:07 PM
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As far as the SL content following the ELC, that is another misconception made by you. Fine you made an FFT curve fit for the low end. Have you ever looked at the high end on SL to see if it fits the curve? Well it does not do so in any way shape or form. SL is not a "the way that you hear" representation of content. SL is a straight FFT program. You have to use an octave based RTA program in order to "see" how balanced the soundtrack is.

A straight FFT program displays acoustic energy in a fixed bandwidth per bin manner. An RTA program display acoustic energy in a fixed octave per bin manner that is based on how you hear. An RTA adds up all the FFT bins in a fixed bandwidth and displays them in a fixed per octave manner (AKA variable bandwidth).

FFT - bandwidth of one bin at 20 Hz = bandwidth of one bin at 1 kHz (etc)

RTA - bandwidth of 1/6 octave in 20 Hz to 40 Hz (AKA 1 octave) area is about 3.6 Hz = bandwidth of 1/6 octave in the 1 kHz to 2 khz (AKA 1 octave) area is about 170 Hz.

What this means is that the SL FFT program does not display frequencies in a manner that is based on how you hear. With SL, a 1 kHz the signal level displayed on SL will be down 30 dB from the 1 Hz signal level recorded on a soundtrack that is balanced and is based on how you / the mixer hears. With an RTA program, the soundtrack will measure flat with the same content. That is hardly a "smiley curve" that you misrepresented as having a meaning in this application.

Who said SL has anything to do with "the way you hear", and why would we want it to?

SL graphs what is input according to your settings. That's what we want it to do for the purposes of this thread, and it does so quite well.

Here is 10 Hz and 1,000 Hz input at the same level (REW generator only goes down to 10 Hz, but which particular low Hz you prefer is irrelevant):



The input signal was at -12dB for both frequencies. They sure look the same to me by all 4 metrics shown on the SL graph.

For MWB, we're not interested in what is happening in the soundtrack at 1,000 Hz, so we shorten the graphing BW to add resolution below 120 Hz for MWB. When we do that, we get far greater resolution to 1 Hz and guess what? When you input 10 Hz vs 100 Hz, equal input, you get equal output from SL... with greater resolution:



So, yeah, feed SL a Log sweep and it will accurately show the attributes of a log sine sweep. That would be useless information, as we already know this, but the point is that SL will render that log sine sweep as it is input. Input a soundtrack and it will accurately depict that input as well. That would be useful information because every soundtrack is different and we want to see those differences.




You are talking single sine waves and sine wave sweeps. Your charts are all accurate as far as you go.

However, you have no idea on how to connect real full band audio content to the SL program. Real world audio content is based on what was heard when the recording was made. Hearing is octave based. An RTA will add FFT bins together based on your bandwidth settings in the RTA. An FFT program like SL does not do so.

If you ever decide to look at real world content for the entire audio bandwidth instead if sine waves, you will get the idea on how low the levels drop on each bin SL the higher the frequency goes. The 1 kHz bin on real world content with SL is way down in level as compared with the 20 Hz bin. Does that mean that PEAK SPL midrange content plays back at low SPL levels? NO, because hearing is octave based!


If you want an example of what I mean, pick a chapter of WOTW and I will show you what I mean.

I still say your bin bandwidth is too small. Your waterfalls are all smeared and do not show transients very well. What is the bin bandwidth that you use in SL? What is your waterfall speed setting?
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